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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Refreshers

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 8th 12:02 PM
Aaron posted:

I have a few things to say.

First, did anyone notice the typo in ACOK's after Theon takes Winterfell and supposedly kills Bran and Rickon, GRRM writes that when Theon showed off the heads "...Old Nan stood with her mouth open." HOLD IT! At that time Old Nan should be pushing up daisies! Whats the deal?

Another thing, I have noticed that everytime something magical happens the character gets 'dizzy.' 'Dizzy' is the most frequently used word in the whole book after 'the' and 'm'lord.' That annoys me.

I'm not complaining mind you, after all I do have a signed copy of ACOK. I just wanted to get those comments off my chest and see what other people thought about it.

A couple questions...

Do you think Bronn is still loyal to Tyrion after being knighted?

Will Tyrion be able to recover (his power at Kings Landing) after being wounded and replaced and Kings Hand?

Are we supposed to hope/believe that Robb Stark can still become king? He lost Winterfell (seat of the Starks for generations) to Roose Boltons bastard Reek, lost his heirs, lost the army of Ser Rodrick, his sworn bannermen are being harrased (and seemingly trounced) by the Greyjoys and if all that was not enough every major house south of the Twins are united with the Lannisters, save House Arryn.

Theres more but I guess I'll save it. Besides, I'm at work.. :)

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 8th 12:09 PM
Aaron,

I don't see how that thing with Old Nan is a typo. Do you mean you figured she should have fallen dead when the heads were shown? Because she was certainly alive when Theon rousted everyone out of bed, demanding what the boys were doing. She wasn't killed at any point.

Never noticed the repeated use of the word 'dizzy.' I think it's just your personal thing that it bothers you. ;)

As to your questions:

Bronn is loyal to money and advancement for himself. If Tyrion can still offer him that, I suppose he'll stay with him.

I don't think Tyrion has any hopes of recovering even a sembelance of his power and influence in King's Landing with his father there now.

Some people can see how Robb might manage to hold out. But he already _is_ a proclaimed king, so I suppose it's a matter of holding onto his kingdom rather than becoming one.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 8th 12:30 PM
I think Bronn (and Shae's) abandonment of Tyrion will be the events that finally sever his ties to his current station. He'll bum money from his father, who probably would like nothing better than to get rid of him, and leave for somewhere else. My guess is the Free Cities, where a man with money and a good head on his shoulders should be able to do pretty well. When he returns, he'll have made some other allies that will, for the first time, actually give him power independent of his status as a Lannister.

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Mar 8th 2:43 PM
Actually, with his father and nephew in KL, and Jaime locked up, he could easily go back to Casterly Rock and rule there. Then if it looks like his father may come home, well, then he can embezzle a small fortune and flee to the free cities, or some other community on the Eastern Continent.

ab

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 8th 2:54 PM
Well, I don't think Tyrion could do that without the backing of Tywin, and I'm not sure Tywin is ready to make Tyrion Lord of Casterly Rock.

Thorfinn
User ID: 9906923 Mar 8th 3:12 PM
Bronn is a sellsword but, I have a feeling that he may be more than just that. Maybe even the new POV. I think he likes Tyrion and will stay with him. I think Bronn may even be a Martel and has been given clues of who to look for and keep an eye on.

Tyrion will be thought of as a hero to a few and they will help him. Tywin does not like Tyrion 'cause hes a frekin Targaryen but, can not kill'em because he loved his wife and it is also an insurance that the lanisters can rule leagaly if it ever comes to that. So, Tyrion gets all his power taken away but, gets silent respect from his dad. He will adventure becasue someone is trying to kill him. I think His sister will try again.

Aaron
User ID: 0115944 Mar 9th 1:52 PM
Ahh, I guess I got Old Nan and Septa Mordane confused.

Padraig
User ID: 0053014 Mar 10th 12:55 PM
Thorfinn hmm. Bronn as a POV? Nice idea except that suggests that he will be leaving Tyrion in the not so distant future. Which would be very interesting in itself. I can't believe that Bronn is much more than he says he is though. IMO meeting Catelyn and Tyrion would be too much of a coincedence otherwise.

I don't see how Tywin could prove Tyrion was a Targaryen also.

I, Claudius
User ID: 0505634 Mar 10th 2:50 PM
If Tyrion was a Targaryen, Tywin would be the last one to want it proved. Imagine what people would say, think about the jokes and the songs. Tywin doesn't seem to have much sense of humor, remember the fate of that man who made a theory about the source of the Lannister gold concerning Tywin's privy.

This other theory: Tyrion being a Targaryen. Well, sounds interesting but I'm not sure. Even though it has points in favor:

1) Maybe it was the reason of Tywin's resigment as a Hand.

2) He didn't kill Tyrion because:

2.1) He loved his wife so much and he had promised her to protect her son. This sounds to me like a "promise me Tywin". I have read something about this in other place...

2.2) Aerys would know. And Tywin didn't dare to arouse the rage of that mad king. Later, with Aerys already dead, as Thorfinn has said, he was a possible heir.
Wait!, perhaps that's the reason why Aerys made Jaime a member of the Kingsguard, to force Tywin to made Tyrion his heir at the end.

2.3) Tyrion dreams about flying on a dragon's back, and the talk about the "third head of the dragon". Tyrion and Jon became fast friends at the moment, maybe "blood is telling".

Thorfinn
User ID: 9906923 Mar 14th 9:41 AM
Good I've found someone who thinks its not too outlandish. Maybe Tywin does not care for Tyrion but, Jamie does. Maybe thats the reason Tywin kept Tyrion alive. But, now that Jamie is in captivity (unless Catlynn did something foolish) and possibly dead maybe, Tywin has had enough of the dragon blood stinking up KL. But! now that Tywin has a clue that perhaps the incest is true, he will keep Tyrion alive for awhile until the Lannister-Tyrell marrige is complete. But I think he probably wants Tyrion dead soon.

Padraig
User ID: 9481773 Mar 15th 1:34 PM
First of all he didn't kill Tyrion because Aerys would be most annoyed. When Aerys died he didn't kill him because of Jaime's apparent love. And now he dares not kill him because he is useful. Well its possible;)

IIRC we don't really know that Tywin hates Tyrion though. Tyrion may just be a little paranoid. He does say for instance that Tywin tried to kill him in the battle in aGoT. But then maybe Tywin was demanding Tyrion prove himself a real Lannister.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 15th 2:28 PM
Well, Tywin's son or no, Tyrion would still be his cousin first removed if Tywin and Joanna were first cousins. Then killing Tyrion would be a kinslaying for Tywin. Also, if Tywin loved Joanna, he wouldn't, IMHO, end a life she died to give.

Padraig
User ID: 0373644 Mar 16th 7:59 AM
Right Labor, forgot all about the cousin thing.

Rhiannon
User ID: 1153984 Apr 7th 7:52 PM
I think that Tywin will want Tyrion alive as long as Jamie is held captive. It is already been made clear that Cersi, being a girl, means little to him.

Does Tywin known the Jamie-Cersi incest thing is true?

Rughead
User ID: 0415304 Apr 7th 8:52 PM
Rhiannon, it's likley Tywin got one of Stannis' homing-pigeon memos directly or second-hand.

Every peasant in KL knew the rumors after the crows were sent out - so why not Tywin?

To this point, we have no idea whether Tywin is repulsed or agnostic or supportive of this type behavior - anyone?

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 Apr 8th 0:43 AM
Tywin was angry, I remember. He told the maester to burn the letter and never speak of such filth.

Rhiannon
User ID: 1153984 Apr 8th 0:47 AM
Let me play devil's advocate for a sec and say that just because Tyron heard the rumors doesn't mean he believed them.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Apr 8th 3:12 AM
Even if Tywin believes it, or knew about it Jaime was his 'goldenboy'. Tyrion knows all about it.

Rhiannon
User ID: 1153984 Apr 8th 10:24 PM
I meant Tywin in my last post-Sorry!

Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 8th 12:02 PM Aaron posted: I have a few things to say. First, did anyone notice the typo in ACOK's after Theon takes Winterfell and supposedly kills Bran and Rickon, GRRM writes that when Theon showed off the heads "...Old Nan stood with her mouth open." HOLD IT! At that time Old Nan should be pushing up daisies! Whats the deal? Another thing, I have noticed that everytime something magical happens the character gets 'dizzy.' 'Dizzy' is the most frequently used word in the whole book after 'the' and 'm'lord.' That annoys me. I'm not complaining mind you, after all I do have a signed copy of ACOK. I just wanted to get those comments off my chest and see what other people thought about it. A couple questions... Do you think Bronn is still loyal to Tyrion after being knighted? Will Tyrion be able to recover (his power at Kings Landing) after being wounded and replaced and Kings Hand? Are we supposed to hope/believe that Robb Stark can still become king? He lost Winterfell (seat of the Starks for generations) to Roose Boltons bastard Reek, lost his heirs, lost the army of Ser Rodrick, his sworn bannermen are being harrased (and seemingly trounced) by the Greyjoys and if all that was not enough every major house south of the Twins are united with the Lannisters, save House Arryn. Theres more but I guess I'll save it. Besides, I'm at work.. :)
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 8th 12:09 PM Aaron, I don't see how that thing with Old Nan is a typo. Do you mean you figured she should have fallen dead when the heads were shown? Because she was certainly alive when Theon rousted everyone out of bed, demanding what the boys were doing. She wasn't killed at any point. Never noticed the repeated use of the word 'dizzy.' I think it's just your personal thing that it bothers you. ;) As to your questions: Bronn is loyal to money and advancement for himself. If Tyrion can still offer him that, I suppose he'll stay with him. I don't think Tyrion has any hopes of recovering even a sembelance of his power and influence in King's Landing with his father there now. Some people can see how Robb might manage to hold out. But he already _is_ a proclaimed king, so I suppose it's a matter of holding onto his kingdom rather than becoming one.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 8th 12:30 PM I think Bronn (and Shae's) abandonment of Tyrion will be the events that finally sever his ties to his current station. He'll bum money from his father, who probably would like nothing better than to get rid of him, and leave for somewhere else. My guess is the Free Cities, where a man with money and a good head on his shoulders should be able to do pretty well. When he returns, he'll have made some other allies that will, for the first time, actually give him power independent of his status as a Lannister.
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Mar 8th 2:43 PM Actually, with his father and nephew in KL, and Jaime locked up, he could easily go back to Casterly Rock and rule there. Then if it looks like his father may come home, well, then he can embezzle a small fortune and flee to the free cities, or some other community on the Eastern Continent. ab
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 8th 2:54 PM Well, I don't think Tyrion could do that without the backing of Tywin, and I'm not sure Tywin is ready to make Tyrion Lord of Casterly Rock.
Thorfinn User ID: 9906923	Mar 8th 3:12 PM Bronn is a sellsword but, I have a feeling that he may be more than just that. Maybe even the new POV. I think he likes Tyrion and will stay with him. I think Bronn may even be a Martel and has been given clues of who to look for and keep an eye on. Tyrion will be thought of as a hero to a few and they will help him. Tywin does not like Tyrion 'cause hes a frekin Targaryen but, can not kill'em because he loved his wife and it is also an insurance that the lanisters can rule leagaly if it ever comes to that. So, Tyrion gets all his power taken away but, gets silent respect from his dad. He will adventure becasue someone is trying to kill him. I think His sister will try again.
Aaron User ID: 0115944	Mar 9th 1:52 PM Ahh, I guess I got Old Nan and Septa Mordane confused.
Padraig User ID: 0053014	Mar 10th 12:55 PM Thorfinn hmm. Bronn as a POV? Nice idea except that suggests that he will be leaving Tyrion in the not so distant future. Which would be very interesting in itself. I can't believe that Bronn is much more than he says he is though. IMO meeting Catelyn and Tyrion would be too much of a coincedence otherwise. I don't see how Tywin could prove Tyrion was a Targaryen also.
I, Claudius User ID: 0505634	Mar 10th 2:50 PM If Tyrion was a Targaryen, Tywin would be the last one to want it proved. Imagine what people would say, think about the jokes and the songs. Tywin doesn't seem to have much sense of humor, remember the fate of that man who made a theory about the source of the Lannister gold concerning Tywin's privy. This other theory: Tyrion being a Targaryen. Well, sounds interesting but I'm not sure. Even though it has points in favor: 1) Maybe it was the reason of Tywin's resigment as a Hand. 2) He didn't kill Tyrion because: 2.1) He loved his wife so much and he had promised her to protect her son. This sounds to me like a "promise me Tywin". I have read something about this in other place... 2.2) Aerys would know. And Tywin didn't dare to arouse the rage of that mad king. Later, with Aerys already dead, as Thorfinn has said, he was a possible heir. Wait!, perhaps that's the reason why Aerys made Jaime a member of the Kingsguard, to force Tywin to made Tyrion his heir at the end. 2.3) Tyrion dreams about flying on a dragon's back, and the talk about the "third head of the dragon". Tyrion and Jon became fast friends at the moment, maybe "blood is telling".
Thorfinn User ID: 9906923	Mar 14th 9:41 AM Good I've found someone who thinks its not too outlandish. Maybe Tywin does not care for Tyrion but, Jamie does. Maybe thats the reason Tywin kept Tyrion alive. But, now that Jamie is in captivity (unless Catlynn did something foolish) and possibly dead maybe, Tywin has had enough of the dragon blood stinking up KL. But! now that Tywin has a clue that perhaps the incest is true, he will keep Tyrion alive for awhile until the Lannister-Tyrell marrige is complete. But I think he probably wants Tyrion dead soon.
Padraig User ID: 9481773	Mar 15th 1:34 PM First of all he didn't kill Tyrion because Aerys would be most annoyed. When Aerys died he didn't kill him because of Jaime's apparent love. And now he dares not kill him because he is useful. Well its possible;) IIRC we don't really know that Tywin hates Tyrion though. Tyrion may just be a little paranoid. He does say for instance that Tywin tried to kill him in the battle in aGoT. But then maybe Tywin was demanding Tyrion prove himself a real Lannister.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 15th 2:28 PM Well, Tywin's son or no, Tyrion would still be his cousin first removed if Tywin and Joanna were first cousins. Then killing Tyrion would be a kinslaying for Tywin. Also, if Tywin loved Joanna, he wouldn't, IMHO, end a life she died to give.
Padraig User ID: 0373644	Mar 16th 7:59 AM Right Labor, forgot all about the cousin thing.
Rhiannon User ID: 1153984	Apr 7th 7:52 PM I think that Tywin will want Tyrion alive as long as Jamie is held captive. It is already been made clear that Cersi, being a girl, means little to him. Does Tywin known the Jamie-Cersi incest thing is true?
Rughead User ID: 0415304	Apr 7th 8:52 PM Rhiannon, it's likley Tywin got one of Stannis' homing-pigeon memos directly or second-hand. Every peasant in KL knew the rumors after the crows were sent out - so why not Tywin? To this point, we have no idea whether Tywin is repulsed or agnostic or supportive of this type behavior - anyone?
Moreta User ID: 0701364	Apr 8th 0:43 AM Tywin was angry, I remember. He told the maester to burn the letter and never speak of such filth.
Rhiannon User ID: 1153984	Apr 8th 0:47 AM Let me play devil's advocate for a sec and say that just because Tyron heard the rumors doesn't mean he believed them.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Apr 8th 3:12 AM Even if Tywin believes it, or knew about it Jaime was his 'goldenboy'. Tyrion knows all about it.
Rhiannon User ID: 1153984	Apr 8th 10:24 PM I meant Tywin in my last post-Sorry!