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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Jon Arryan's Killer

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Terry
User ID: 0909594 Mar 19th 11:54 AM
Hey, I think Lysa killed John Arryan. She had knowledge that Jon was going to take away their freak son -- because he's a freak. So she knocked him of. We KNOW it wasn't Cersai, it COULD have been Little Finger but with what motive?

Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 Mar 19th 2:59 PM
Hmm, the folks might take your revelation more seriously if you spelled Jon Arryn's name right. By the by, I agree with you. Good work Terry!

Min
User ID: 0074284 Mar 19th 3:43 PM
Well, I think it was a plot woven by Littlefinger and Lysa both. It seems that Lysa has been in love with Littlefinger for a long time. And, of course, there was the reason you pointed out: Jon wanted to take li'll Robert away from her.
Littlefinger's motive? Power?
Perhaps he thought about getting a hand on the Vale when he helped Lysa with this little... um, chore.

Padraig
User ID: 0317884 Mar 19th 4:42 PM
Terry, welcome. But why do you think that Cersei didn't kill Jon? I know she denied it but that means less to nothing.

I got this idea into my head that Tywin killed Jon Arryn when he found out that Jon was close to revealing the truth about Jaime and Cersei. This is not the most popular idea as I remember from the last time it was brought up but I still like it.

OTOH Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger, Lysa... we're not short of alternatives, on the off-chance i'm actually wrong;)

Min
User ID: 0074284 Mar 19th 4:59 PM
Padraig, I am not even sure if Tywin knows - or accepts to realize - about Cersei and Jaime. I am even less sure that he knew at the time when Jon Arryn was killed... but as you said, it's not the most popular idea. :-)

Rughead
User ID: 0665994 Mar 19th 8:05 PM
I agree with Terry that Cersei did not do it. Jaime and Cersei are both ruthlessly honest during frank discussions. She had no reason to lie to Ned at the time of their negotiation in the godswood.

Furthermore, one could hypothesize that Lysa and Litlefinger catalyzed the entire Westeros storyline. If they conspired to kill Jon Arryn and then sent a false message to her sister, they got Ned sucked into being the Hand and Jon Snow sent off to the wall.

tyler
User ID: 9377263 Mar 19th 10:56 PM
I cant rember, but didnt Tyrion find that Grand Maester Pycelle sent the Maester from the Eyrie away when he found the Maester from the Eyrie was purging him, and it was working and Jon Arryn was starting to feel better.

Min
User ID: 0074284 Mar 19th 11:32 PM
Rug, just to play devil's advocate: _Jaime_ has proven to be ruthlessly honest in a conversation like this. That need not necessarily be true for Cersei. And she did have reason to lie to Ned. Officially, he still had the power to have her beheaded for that. He just proposed her to let her go (silly Ned) with her children, but had she committed to the murder of Jon Arryn, he might have change his opinion. And that could have crewed Cersei's plans.

I still think it were Lysa and Petyr, but well - why should I not blow my own arguments? :-)

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 20th 6:22 AM
But did Cersei have reason to lie to Tyrion, Min? IIRC, she rather proudly described the details of Robert's murder, but when asked about Jon Arryn's (a lesser crime) said something along the lines of "How should I know?".
As to Pycelle - IIRC he didn't claim that he acted on a direct order of Cersei's, he said that he did what he _thought_ Cersei would have wanted.

Also, let's not forget about the fact that Jon Arryn was poisoned immediately after he borrowed the genealogy book - yet Cersei seems utterly oblivious to the book's significance.

Min
User ID: 0074284 Mar 20th 6:43 AM
Good point, labor. I'll pull back to the point where I said that I never thought it was Cersei... that's the good thing about playing devil's advocate. :-)

I do not think Lysa did it alone, though, that's why I thought of Lysa and Petyr. Not enough courage, she has.

Thorfinn
User ID: 9906923 Mar 20th 10:00 AM
I say Littlefinger and Lysa plotted Jon's killing together. One reason is because Lysa's son is Littlefingers's son too. Now that Littlefinger has gained Hernhall(sp?) and I think has become Lord there, he is legit for a marriage to Lysa. I think Littlefinger still prefers Catelyn but, Lysa is almost as good. His doings have caused the Startks sufficent suffering for now, so he will stop causeing Stark trouble. Until he and Lysa decide not to support the Starks against the Lannisters so, the Starks will get no support from the Vale except for a few houses. I do think someone will find out that Lysa's boy is Littlefingers and the Vale's support will go to that side.

Trebla
User ID: 0721754 Mar 20th 10:19 AM
I am not so sure that Little Robert Arryrn is Littlefinger's. Just for the reason that we already have that sort of thing going on with Joffrey. It just seems to be soap operaish and I think that GRRM is a better writer than that. Of course, I could be wrong :0)

Strategon
User ID: 9732463 Mar 20th 10:29 AM
Why do you think that Lysa loves Littlefinger? Is there any clue that Littlefinger loves her? I honestly don't believe this. I think Littlefinger still loves Catelyn, that's why he plotted to let Ned in the south ... perhaps to kill him or just to get him away from Catelyn.
Have you arguments for an affair between Lysa and Petyr Baelish?

Min
User ID: 0074284 Mar 20th 10:40 AM
Strat, _he_ might well still love Cat. I just said Lysa loves him.
When Cat talks with her dying father, he mistakes her for Lysa, and asks her something like (no direct quote at all): "Why did you have to run of for the sake of that mad love for that man?"

Which man did he mean? It could not have been Jon Arryn, we all know she never loved him, it was a political marriage. Whom else but Petyr? It would make sense. He infatuaded with the older sister. The younger one holding a torch for him. When he cannot have Catelyn, he somforts himself with the younger one, without loving her, Replacing Cat with her in a way, as she is her sister, enjoying it as a kind of revenge, or just for the heck of it. Most likely for all those reasons.

IIRC, there is at some point of the books hinted that he had slept with her, though I cannot recall where. Which is no proof that Robert is his, but proof enough for me that Lysa is in love with him. Or at least was, at a time.

Strategon
User ID: 1300074 Mar 20th 11:39 AM
Thank you, Min, for making it a bit clearer.

Padraig
User ID: 2560524 Mar 20th 1:39 PM
The genealogy book is the strangest thing about the killing of Jon. It suggests that Pycelle and the Lannisters don't know what it means. Which means that Littlefinger and Lysa very likely did kill Jon. But Pycelle was aware of Jon's investigations. So you would think that he would see the significance of the book and not give it to Ned.

I can't remember some things. I know Cersei denied she was behind Jon's death to Tyrion. Did she do the same with Ned? I don't remember that.
Labor, she did lie to Tyrion about Bran. And she doesn't like Tyrion so I don't see why she would confess everything. OTOH he is not going to believe her if she denied everything.

Trebla, I believe you are right. I think Robert Arryn is legit. Considering the number of miscarriages she had it seems to be the truth.

Min, I do believe Tywin knows about Jaime and Cersei. I think he found out before Jon's death. He refuses to believe it but he knows its true (if that makes any sense). This is not a very popular idea either I think. But once i'm proved right it will be;-)

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 20th 4:20 PM
The only way to understand the issue with the book is that the maesters know far more about genetics than your run-of-the-mill noble will. The "proof" Jon collected isn't exactly 100%. The book certainly says nothing useful in regards to the genetics of the Baratheons and Lannisters in the present day.

So, being the rather shallow person he is, Pycelle never realized that Stannis and Jon and then Ned would come to the conclusion that Cersei's children were not by Robert, even though the book really doesn't indicate anything.

Snake
User ID: 0317884 Mar 21st 10:57 AM
Yes tyler, Grand Maester Pycelle admitted to Tyrion that he killed Jon Arryn. He said that Jon's Maester was going to make Jon well so he sent him away. Then he let his work finish itself. Plus, when Varys mentioned the Tears of Lys, Pycelle got clearly agitated. Perhaps Varys let Pycelle know what Jon knew, since it has been hinted by Illyrio that Varys had something to do with the death of a Hand. So Pycelle killed Jon to protect Cersei and the Lannisters. Not the first time he had done such a thing.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 21st 11:55 AM
Pycelle finished the job.

There was a possibility that Arryn might be healed by Maester Whathisname (Colemon?), so he sent him away, as Snake said.

Pycelle didn't admit to the actual poisoning. (which, of course, still leaves open for him to be the culpable for that as well...but why did he not admit it to Tyrion?)

Claidhaim
User ID: 8590713 Mar 21st 1:36 PM
OTOH, while Jon Arryn was going to spill the beans about the paternity of Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen, it presented an opportunity for the Lannisters to claim the Hand's job. Cercie would, and probably did, say that her father would make an excellent Hand to Robert, but Robert wanted Ned.

If Tywin was appointed Hand after Jon, then there wouldn't have been any further investigation into the matter except by Stannis. And since Stannis was envious of Ned's relationship with Robert, he wasn't going to go to him for help and it would have all blown over.

Since Robert went to Ned, though, the killing of Jon Arryn didn't solve any problems and in fact accelerated a confrontation between the wolf and Lion.

Saying all of that, I guess whoever put the seed of Ned being Hand into Robert's wine sodden head is the most likely candidate for Jon Arryn's demise.

And IMHO, it's Littlefinger to mess up the plans of Varys and to get himself a little better position in Westeros.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Terry User ID: 0909594	Mar 19th 11:54 AM Hey, I think Lysa killed John Arryan. She had knowledge that Jon was going to take away their freak son -- because he's a freak. So she knocked him of. We KNOW it wasn't Cersai, it COULD have been Little Finger but with what motive?
Street Prophet User ID: 2107894	Mar 19th 2:59 PM Hmm, the folks might take your revelation more seriously if you spelled Jon Arryn's name right. By the by, I agree with you. Good work Terry!
Min User ID: 0074284	Mar 19th 3:43 PM Well, I think it was a plot woven by Littlefinger and Lysa both. It seems that Lysa has been in love with Littlefinger for a long time. And, of course, there was the reason you pointed out: Jon wanted to take li'll Robert away from her. Littlefinger's motive? Power? Perhaps he thought about getting a hand on the Vale when he helped Lysa with this little... um, chore.
Padraig User ID: 0317884	Mar 19th 4:42 PM Terry, welcome. But why do you think that Cersei didn't kill Jon? I know she denied it but that means less to nothing. I got this idea into my head that Tywin killed Jon Arryn when he found out that Jon was close to revealing the truth about Jaime and Cersei. This is not the most popular idea as I remember from the last time it was brought up but I still like it. OTOH Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger, Lysa... we're not short of alternatives, on the off-chance i'm actually wrong;)
Min User ID: 0074284	Mar 19th 4:59 PM Padraig, I am not even sure if Tywin knows - or accepts to realize - about Cersei and Jaime. I am even less sure that he knew at the time when Jon Arryn was killed... but as you said, it's not the most popular idea. :-)
Rughead User ID: 0665994	Mar 19th 8:05 PM I agree with Terry that Cersei did not do it. Jaime and Cersei are both ruthlessly honest during frank discussions. She had no reason to lie to Ned at the time of their negotiation in the godswood. Furthermore, one could hypothesize that Lysa and Litlefinger catalyzed the entire Westeros storyline. If they conspired to kill Jon Arryn and then sent a false message to her sister, they got Ned sucked into being the Hand and Jon Snow sent off to the wall.
tyler User ID: 9377263	Mar 19th 10:56 PM I cant rember, but didnt Tyrion find that Grand Maester Pycelle sent the Maester from the Eyrie away when he found the Maester from the Eyrie was purging him, and it was working and Jon Arryn was starting to feel better.
Min User ID: 0074284	Mar 19th 11:32 PM Rug, just to play devil's advocate: _Jaime_ has proven to be ruthlessly honest in a conversation like this. That need not necessarily be true for Cersei. And she did have reason to lie to Ned. Officially, he still had the power to have her beheaded for that. He just proposed her to let her go (silly Ned) with her children, but had she committed to the murder of Jon Arryn, he might have change his opinion. And that could have crewed Cersei's plans. I still think it were Lysa and Petyr, but well - why should I not blow my own arguments? :-)
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 20th 6:22 AM But did Cersei have reason to lie to Tyrion, Min? IIRC, she rather proudly described the details of Robert's murder, but when asked about Jon Arryn's (a lesser crime) said something along the lines of "How should I know?". As to Pycelle - IIRC he didn't claim that he acted on a direct order of Cersei's, he said that he did what he _thought_ Cersei would have wanted. Also, let's not forget about the fact that Jon Arryn was poisoned immediately after he borrowed the genealogy book - yet Cersei seems utterly oblivious to the book's significance.
Min User ID: 0074284	Mar 20th 6:43 AM Good point, labor. I'll pull back to the point where I said that I never thought it was Cersei... that's the good thing about playing devil's advocate. :-) I do not think Lysa did it alone, though, that's why I thought of Lysa and Petyr. Not enough courage, she has.
Thorfinn User ID: 9906923	Mar 20th 10:00 AM I say Littlefinger and Lysa plotted Jon's killing together. One reason is because Lysa's son is Littlefingers's son too. Now that Littlefinger has gained Hernhall(sp?) and I think has become Lord there, he is legit for a marriage to Lysa. I think Littlefinger still prefers Catelyn but, Lysa is almost as good. His doings have caused the Startks sufficent suffering for now, so he will stop causeing Stark trouble. Until he and Lysa decide not to support the Starks against the Lannisters so, the Starks will get no support from the Vale except for a few houses. I do think someone will find out that Lysa's boy is Littlefingers and the Vale's support will go to that side.
Trebla User ID: 0721754	Mar 20th 10:19 AM I am not so sure that Little Robert Arryrn is Littlefinger's. Just for the reason that we already have that sort of thing going on with Joffrey. It just seems to be soap operaish and I think that GRRM is a better writer than that. Of course, I could be wrong :0)
Strategon User ID: 9732463	Mar 20th 10:29 AM Why do you think that Lysa loves Littlefinger? Is there any clue that Littlefinger loves her? I honestly don't believe this. I think Littlefinger still loves Catelyn, that's why he plotted to let Ned in the south ... perhaps to kill him or just to get him away from Catelyn. Have you arguments for an affair between Lysa and Petyr Baelish?
Min User ID: 0074284	Mar 20th 10:40 AM Strat, _he_ might well still love Cat. I just said Lysa loves him. When Cat talks with her dying father, he mistakes her for Lysa, and asks her something like (no direct quote at all): "Why did you have to run of for the sake of that mad love for that man?" Which man did he mean? It could not have been Jon Arryn, we all know she never loved him, it was a political marriage. Whom else but Petyr? It would make sense. He infatuaded with the older sister. The younger one holding a torch for him. When he cannot have Catelyn, he somforts himself with the younger one, without loving her, Replacing Cat with her in a way, as she is her sister, enjoying it as a kind of revenge, or just for the heck of it. Most likely for all those reasons. IIRC, there is at some point of the books hinted that he had slept with her, though I cannot recall where. Which is no proof that Robert is his, but proof enough for me that Lysa is in love with him. Or at least was, at a time.
Strategon User ID: 1300074	Mar 20th 11:39 AM Thank you, Min, for making it a bit clearer.
Padraig User ID: 2560524	Mar 20th 1:39 PM The genealogy book is the strangest thing about the killing of Jon. It suggests that Pycelle and the Lannisters don't know what it means. Which means that Littlefinger and Lysa very likely did kill Jon. But Pycelle was aware of Jon's investigations. So you would think that he would see the significance of the book and not give it to Ned. I can't remember some things. I know Cersei denied she was behind Jon's death to Tyrion. Did she do the same with Ned? I don't remember that. Labor, she did lie to Tyrion about Bran. And she doesn't like Tyrion so I don't see why she would confess everything. OTOH he is not going to believe her if she denied everything. Trebla, I believe you are right. I think Robert Arryn is legit. Considering the number of miscarriages she had it seems to be the truth. Min, I do believe Tywin knows about Jaime and Cersei. I think he found out before Jon's death. He refuses to believe it but he knows its true (if that makes any sense). This is not a very popular idea either I think. But once i'm proved right it will be;-)
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 20th 4:20 PM The only way to understand the issue with the book is that the maesters know far more about genetics than your run-of-the-mill noble will. The "proof" Jon collected isn't exactly 100%. The book certainly says nothing useful in regards to the genetics of the Baratheons and Lannisters in the present day. So, being the rather shallow person he is, Pycelle never realized that Stannis and Jon and then Ned would come to the conclusion that Cersei's children were not by Robert, even though the book really doesn't indicate anything.
Snake User ID: 0317884	Mar 21st 10:57 AM Yes tyler, Grand Maester Pycelle admitted to Tyrion that he killed Jon Arryn. He said that Jon's Maester was going to make Jon well so he sent him away. Then he let his work finish itself. Plus, when Varys mentioned the Tears of Lys, Pycelle got clearly agitated. Perhaps Varys let Pycelle know what Jon knew, since it has been hinted by Illyrio that Varys had something to do with the death of a Hand. So Pycelle killed Jon to protect Cersei and the Lannisters. Not the first time he had done such a thing.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 21st 11:55 AM Pycelle finished the job. There was a possibility that Arryn might be healed by Maester Whathisname (Colemon?), so he sent him away, as Snake said. Pycelle didn't admit to the actual poisoning. (which, of course, still leaves open for him to be the culpable for that as well...but why did he not admit it to Tyrion?)
Claidhaim User ID: 8590713	Mar 21st 1:36 PM OTOH, while Jon Arryn was going to spill the beans about the paternity of Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen, it presented an opportunity for the Lannisters to claim the Hand's job. Cercie would, and probably did, say that her father would make an excellent Hand to Robert, but Robert wanted Ned. If Tywin was appointed Hand after Jon, then there wouldn't have been any further investigation into the matter except by Stannis. And since Stannis was envious of Ned's relationship with Robert, he wasn't going to go to him for help and it would have all blown over. Since Robert went to Ned, though, the killing of Jon Arryn didn't solve any problems and in fact accelerated a confrontation between the wolf and Lion. Saying all of that, I guess whoever put the seed of Ned being Hand into Robert's wine sodden head is the most likely candidate for Jon Arryn's demise. And IMHO, it's Littlefinger to mess up the plans of Varys and to get himself a little better position in Westeros.