This is a mirror of the now defunct eesite ASOIAF webboard.

The discussions for G.R.R. Martin's awesome series "A Song of Ice and Fire" are now being held at: Current ASoIaF Webboard

You cannot post new messages to this board. Go to the Current ASoIaF Webboard for the most current discussions.

A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Jaime Lannister III

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Mar 23rd 1:17 PM
As I was trying to post in the last topic -

Jeff;


Picture yourself in a cell, together with a man chained down.

This man has just admitted to crippling your son in an attempt to kill him.

This man has just taunted you about your murdered spouse.

This man has broken the most solemn of oaths.

There are no apparent advantages to letting him go, for yourself or others.



At what point, exactly, do you decide: "Yes, I'm going to trust this man's word, and let him free to go to the Wall."



I'm sorry, but it is completely opaque to me how Catelyn would reach such a conclusion.
Even if the 'nothing happens' option is a cop-out, it would be a million times better than this.

In my not exactly humble opinion. :P
Padraig
User ID: 8353323 		Mar 23rd 1:34 PM
KAH, I cannot believe that Catelyn could forget that Arya's(or so Catelyn would believe) and Sansa's lives depend on Jaime's well-being. She thinks she has lost both Bran and Rickon, so rather than lashing out, she should be doing her best to keep her remaining children alive.

Now I don't expect Catelyn to demand Jaime swear he will join the Watch. That will not get her children back. But she may demand he will release her kids when he reaches KL.

You are right that Jaime shocked her but he was honest. I don't think he has ever done anything malicious for the sake of it. Even Bran was a matter of self-preservation.

She has time to think about what she is goin to do. She just doesn't lash out at Jaime. She coldly asks Brienne for a sword. What you are saying is that Brienne will give her that sword and she will then start hacking away. Each hit killing any hope that her daughters will survive. She enters the dungeon with 3 kids she will leave with one. To say I have my doubts is putting it mildly.

I think events have driven Catelyn to the point where she will release her enemy to get back her family.
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Mar 23rd 2:13 PM
Padraig;

For the 'malicious thing for the sake of it' - think about the passage where Ned's foot is broken.

That's about as 'malicious for the sake of it' as it gets.


As for getting her daughters killed - why would she construe letting Jaime go an advantage in her fight to keep her daughters alive?
(And she would have to construe this _herself_ - I'm doubting Jaime would try asking her such a thing.)

Why not keep her one bargaining card? If the Starks were to lose, Cat would have reason to believe that they all were as good as dead (the Sack of KL should prove that), but if they still had Jaime, maybe she could bargain some sort of exile for herself and her children, instead of sure death.

That's why I think even the cop-out situation is much, much better than letting him go.



Now, some cynical little bastard in me is telling me that the reason many think Cat might let Jaime go, is because of his 'honesty'. Yeah, he told the truth.

However, that doesn't make him honorable. What we need to ask ourselves is this: Is Jaime being honest because some spark of honor in him has been revived, or is it because he just does not give a damn?

I know what _I_ think about the matter - Jaime could not give a shit about 99.99% of the world.

There are a few things Jaime cares about - his family, and having a good time (whether in fighting or sex), and (perhaps) the Lannister name.

Besides that, the world could burn to ashes, and not earn even a shrug from him for it.


Now, his family is not in jeopardy for what he is telling to Cat - the families are already at war, and it will end in blood in any case. I do not think he cares overmuch of what happens to himself. And giving Cat her info, lets him get info back.
In that context, it isn't really strange that he is honest with her. He's got nothing to lose, really. Not anything he cares about, in any event.
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Mar 23rd 2:19 PM
To add;

Basically, what I'm saying is that we should not treat this as a dichotomy.

There are valid qualms about my maiming theory, and they hold even more for the theory that Cat will kill Jaime - but that cannot be taken as evidence for the 'let Jaime go' theory.


I suppose that if I should - completely objectively - rank the possibilities of what's going to happen, I'd rank them thusly:

Cat

1) Does nothing.

2) Maims Jaime in some way.

3) Kills Jaime.

.
.
.

156) Let's him free.


[OK, I'll shut up now. :o) ]
Min
User ID: 0074284 		Mar 23rd 3:11 PM
Thank you, Snake. :-)
I agree with you, though, that it might be idiocy to let the guy go. That's why I think she'll do it. ;-)

Seriosly. I am (oh surprise) on... *drumroll* Jeff's side here. I think that _if_ Jaime swore an oath to Cat, she would believe him. He just rendered himself to her hands, he was so brutally honest that she has every reason to believe him. And I think he also would keep that oath.
Jaime is on the rim of something. He's disgusted with his own life, his sarcasm shows that.
So I think she Might demand an oath and set him free.
Plus, I think it might be the best plot twist GRRM has ever created - Jaime changing sides! -, and we can expect no less than the best from him.
Relic
User ID: 9328513 		Mar 23rd 5:40 PM
Kah, Jamie is has always been honset, In his own brutal way hes one of the few characters who are true to theri feelings. Hes a bastard but he doesnt hide it. He told Cat the truth i think, because she asked.
Lord Fool
User ID: 1927154 		Mar 23rd 9:02 PM
Yeah he is a preatty niffty character i hope we learn more about him and his father cause those two intrest me the most.
Min
User ID: 0074284 		Mar 24th 4:08 AM
I really believe there is a possibility that Jaime changes sides and joins the "good guys". I would love to see him as the new POV character. We will just have to wait and see, I suppose.
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Mar 24th 5:09 AM
I'll bet you ten bucks that that'll never happen, Min!

(which reminds me...I had a bet over Jaime with Jeff - but I cannot recall just what it was about...)
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Mar 24th 8:26 AM
Neither can I. :-)

Catelyn's primary concern always has been her children. She believes Bran and Rickon to be dead, Arya lost somewhere, Sansa to be in King's Landing, and Robb in the middle of a war that could very well see him killed. She wants this war to be _over_.

She may view Jaime's status as a prisoner as one obstacle to ending the war. It makes Robb and Edmure more likely to continue fighting because they feel that they have a valuable bargaining chip. So, they try for small victories, and hope that those victories, coupled with Jaime, can lead them to a negotiated peace on favorable terms. Catelyn doesn't like this strategy because Robb has won some victories, they have Jaime, but still there has been no sign of peace. Something has to change.

Freeing Jaime cuts that Gordian knot. Robb and Edmure's big bargaining chip is gone. Robb, realizing that he cannot win a military victory in the south, and knowing that he no longer has Jaime, really has no alternative but to head home. Edmure also sues for peace.

Now, I don't think this is perfect reasoning. But it certainly fits with Catelyn's desire to see the war end because having Jaime as a prisoner apparently has done nothing to end the war. If Jaime abides by his oath, she has exacted a good measure of revenge on the Lannisters, yet in an honorable way. If he doesn't abide by it, she still would feel closer to her goal of ending the war.

But I think there is a pretty good chance he would follow that oath for exactly the reason you identified. Wouldn't everyone in the Seven Kingdoms think it bizarre for Riverrun to simply free Jaime, no strings attached? Once Jaime is gone, Catelyn tells Edmure what she has done. He's pissed, but can do nothing. Catelyn tells him that they must send ravens throughout the realm saying that they want the war to be over, the realm needs peace, and so they have released Jaime Lannister. But as a weregild for what happened to Ned, Jaime had to swear to go to the Wall. I think _everyone_ believes that story because it is really the only possible circumstance under which Jaime would be simply released. So if Jaime doesn't go to the Wall, he becomes an even worse oathbreaker than he already his, greatly shaming his house and committing a crime punishable by death.

I think that's the most plausible alternative for her entering the cell with a sword. As devoted to her children as she is, I imagine her sole concern is preserving the children she does have left. Sansa is a prisoner, and anything that happens to Jaime might well be taken out on her. Or, at the least, it will enrage Tywin to the point where he will not rest until Robb is dead.

Tell you what, Kay-Arne, I'll bet you that she releases him rather than killing or maiming him.
Trebla
User ID: 9990163 		Mar 24th 9:58 AM
A few things, Jeff:

1. Catelyn doesn't know that Arya is on the lam. As far as she knows, Arya is in Kings Landing. That Frey that she released and came back tells her that he didn't see her, but IIRC she thinks that they have her locked up because she is a hellion.

2. Jamie had just told her he had tried to kill two of her sons (Bran and Robb), had mocked her dead husband (poor old dead Ned), and had mocked her with her longest held wound (Jon Snow). Would she really just free him. If I was her shoes and a "vile" man had just insulted me as he did, and I had a sword in my hand?

3. And if he did swear an oath to go to the Wall and then didn't, who would reall care? King Joffrey? Hardly. The Hand of the King Lord Tywin? Nope. Who would enforce that law? The Wall is a NORTHERN concern. I doubt they really care about it in Highgarden or Dorne. An empty oath to an insignificant law is no biggie is what they would probably think.
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Mar 24th 10:14 AM
I'll take that bet, Jeff. Ten bucks?


Back to your points.

First, Jaime's captivity is certainly an obstacle to peace. Problem is, it is not the _only_ obstacle to peace, or I would have an easier time agreeing with you.

Lots of the nobles might not want peace whatever the situation is - Karstark and Piper springs to mind. And what does Robb and Edmure think about it all?

I believe that Jaime's captivity is not the be-all and end-all for them, wrt this war - they will judge on their overall chances to win. These have declined markedly, so I think that it is a good possibility that they might want to negotiate a peace right away.
I don't know if it's even feasible to try a 'small victories' strategy - and much less do I know if Robb and Edmure would think in those lanes.

But the bottom line is Cat. Robb left Riverrun before he heard the last news - and Cat does not know how he will react to it.
Would it not be prudent to actually _inquire_ what Robb intended to do first, before just letting go of the one bargaining card they have?

Sure, lord Tywin has not stopped warring just because his son was taken captive (even as Robb would not for his father), but that does not necessarily mean that Jaime has no value as a bargaining card. Trouble is, Robb has only come up with one negotiating proposal during the war, and that one so unacceptable that it more or less amounted to a joke. If Robb actually _wanted_ a deal, he could have had it, IMAO.

With Jaime, there's a small chance that Robb and Edmure could get out of this without much injury. Without him, I think the chances are that both families are in deadly peril - it's not like lord Tywin needs much of an excuse for butchering down the Tullys and Starks - they are in rebellion to the throne, after all.


Furthermore, there is this about Jaime keeping to his oath.

I do not believe that he would do so in the first place, but let's just say that there exists some glimmer of honor in him, so that he actually would keep to his oath.

It is still not his call in the first place. Just to _consider_ letting Jaime go, Cat would have to be more than reasonably sure that Jaime actually would keep to his oath. That that glimmer of honor in fact existed within him.

Now, I do not recall the exact wording of the last Cat chapter, but I think in at least two separate occasions, Cat remarks how Jaime was completely devoid of honor. Yet you would have me believe that in a few minutes (or seconds, even), Cat would turn around 180 degrees.


I can't imagine just how GRRM could write this, and not make it feel very, very artificial and forced.
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Mar 24th 10:55 AM
You're on. We can make it 10 bucks worth of something on Amazon.com or something similar. Of course, if neither one of us is right, neither wins.

Whether Karstark, etc. actually would accept peace really isn't that relevant to Catelyn's perception of whether releasing Jaime might bring peace. Catelyn is desperate to stop the war, and removing only one obstacle to peace is an improvement over not removing any obstacles.

Maybe it would be better to wait to see what Robb will do. But suppose he tries to head south from Lannisport rather than head up to Riverrun? Maybe he won't come back to consult with Catelyn before planning his next move. Anyway, she believes both Robb and Edmure are too bent on revenge to release Jaime, so consulting with them is the same as not releasing Jaime. She is desperate and feels like she has to do _something_.

Sure, Tywin doesn't need an excuse to go after Robb and the Tullys. But I think The Tyrells may factor in here. They were quite willing to lift the seige of King's Landing and smash the hated Stannis. I'm not too sure that they would be in favor of annihilating the Tullys and Starks, and I don't think Tywin can do that by himself. Releasing Jaime but binding him to the Wall seems to be a fairly reasonable action by the Starks and Tullys, a "payback" for killing Ned instead of sending him to the Wall.

As I said, it's not just Jaime's honor that Catelyn can rely upon. The circumstances of the release would lend tremendous credibility to the claim that he swore an oath to go to the Wall as a condition of his release. Both Jaime and the Lannisters know that the breaking of that Oath by Jaime would not go over well at all with the nobility in Westeros, especially not with the honor-conscious Tyrells. _That_ is why counting on Jaime to fulfill his oath is not unreasonable.

The one thing you didn't address is the alternatives. Obviously, I would agree that the best thing would be for Catelyn to do nothing. But she's gone in there with a sword and something is going to happen. You haven't really addressed why killing or maiming Jaime is a more reasonable course of action for Catelyn given the likely consequences of that action for her few remaining children.



Trebla
User ID: 0721754 		Mar 24th 11:01 AM
The "honor conscious" Tyrells? Exactly how many times have they switched sides? 4 by my count.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Mar 24th 11:49 AM
Four?

They were loyalists and bent the knee only after the king and his heir were killed. That's not really a betrayal.

Then they proclaim for Renly. That's a bit of a quandry. I'd label it a minor betrayal -- they had no real grounds to imagine the social contract had been broken on their part, but so be it. Then Renly dies. Given that they believe it was Stannis behind it, I figure them joining the Lannisters again isn't really a betrayal.

So, that's one betrayal, and not a very clear-cut one. Or so it seems to me.
labor
User ID: 0798784 		Mar 24th 12:00 PM
Let me pipe in. I also think that Catelyn will let Jaime go.

However, I don't think that he will swear an oath to join the Night's Watch.
First of all, while Jaime IMHO _is_ disgusted with himself and with what he has done with his life, he hardly can see the Wall as a chance to change that. His views on the Wall are most likely similar to Tyrion's. And given that, Catelyn really has no lever to make him swear to join it.
That is not to say that Jaime won't join voluntary later if he learns what is really happening there. In fact, I think that Jaime will be very instrumental in fight against the Others.

Secondly, Catelyn doesn't yet know about the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, but does know that Moat Cailin is taken. I.e. there is no chance for Jaime to reach the Wall and no one to hold Lord Tywin to honorable practices.

OTOH, Catelyn clearly had some plan when she went to the cells. She thinks long and hard about the road she must choose and then thinks that Jaime's honorlessness will be an impediment to it. And then, Jaime says : "In my own way I was truer than Ned ever was" and that is when Cat calls for the sword. From Theon's performance in Winterfell we know that swords are used for giving oaths.

Now, what could Catelyn want Jaime to swear? IMHO, something along the lines of getting her girls back, personal oath not to take arms against the Starks and real peace negotiations.

I must say, that while letting Jaime go and relying on him keeping oaths is rash, keeping Jaime prisoner is quite dangerous too. Lots of people want him dead and he seems fey enough to lay hands on himself. And if Jaime dies, whatever the circumstances, Starks and Tullys will be in for it.
Morever, Robb's situation with Wintefell lost and his brothers "dead" has grown very precarious. He has no heirs, he can't defend his own lands, the other lords might be getting ideas. Even if the girls can't, by themselves be seen as worthy heirs, they can be married to the people who would make such, rendering traision and/or murder of Robb much less desirable.
Yet even if Robb officially considers trading Jaime (unlikely, IMHO), it will produce dangerous disturbances, as we have already seen. Morever, so far it certainly looks like Robb doesn't see diplomacy as a way to resolve his problems.

If Jaime keeps his word, letting him go might be very advantagious. If he doesn't... Robb and Edmure might still be more receptive to the idea that further war must be avoided. And it will spare the Starks/Tullys the dangers associated with Jaime dying while in captivity.


Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 		Mar 24th 12:23 PM
Trebla, The Tyrells (Lord Mace specifically) wants a descendant on the Iron Throne. When Renly was alive he was the best ticket. When Renly was killed they chose the next best chance at putting one of their own on the throne by pushing for a marriage between Joff and Margery. That was probably the center point of the bargain that Littlefinger made.



Trebla
User ID: 9990163 		Mar 24th 12:24 PM
Well, Ran, if they were truly loyal to the Targaryens, they wouldn't have bent knee at all. They openly rebelled against King Joffrey Baratheon by supporting Renly, who was really about 3rd in the line of succesion. Only when Renly died did they bend knee. They have supported Aerys, then Robert, then Renly, and finally Joffrey. Who will they support tomorrow??
Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 		Mar 24th 12:35 PM
As far as what Cat will do... I originally was of the opinion that she would maim him. Make it so he could not be a threat to Robb again and then set him free. I changed my mind since then(thanks to the deft debate from many a good aSoIaFer). See the bottom topic on the first Clash of Kings topic, called "Jaime's Fate" for that.

I do not think she would trust an oath from him. She thinks to herself of how deviod of honor he is. I think it possible that she could let him go... in the hopes of initiating some peace agreement. Perhaps that is the reason for the late night visit.

I don't think Jaime would feel the need to honor any condition Cat placed on him if he were free. Unless it served his own purposes.

So what could she demand of him that she thinks he would actually follow through with?
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Mar 24th 12:37 PM
labor, that's something I hadn't thought of. Not whether Catelyn would be willing to free Jaime if he would swear, but whether Jaime himself would take the oath.

I tend to think he might take it. The alternatives would be 1) rotting in a cell for the rest of his life or 2) getting killed by guards as Lannisters/Tyrells storm Riverrun. Sure, he could be freed in a prisoner exchange, but he can't really count on that happening. Jaime isn't a hedonist -- he's never "cheated" on Cersei. And I still think one of the reasons he joined the Kingsguard was to get himself away from Casterly Rock and place himself in a position where he could not continue the incestuous relationship with his sister. It was his attempt to force himself to behave properly. I think he is rather directionless at this point in his life.

The Wall would be something clean for him. Not that he would volunteer to go under normal circumstances, but it might not be such a bad alternative for him given his present predicament.
Next 20 Messages Newest Messages