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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Ned Stark *is* alive!

Next 20 Messages

Swithin
User ID: 1460434 May 16th 4:34 AM
It's all in the direwolves. So every character got a wolf, born of a wolf run through the heart by a hart. That seems to be a pretty obvious metaphor for Ned Stark's death... but is it?

Let us count the wolves...

five living, one dead.

Now let us count the Starks...

seven.

Hmm. All the boy Starks got a he-wolf, all the girl Starks got a she-wolf. Except Ned. We always expected that the *mother* was his symbolic wolf... it's Catelyn's! After Ned's disappearance, she has died as a Stark, just as Sansa has. Catelyn at the actions of the Baratheons, and Sansa at the hands of her father, through his death. So if the mother is Catelyn's symbol of Starkhood, where is the papa-wolf?

...MISSING...

Everyone has a wolf corresponding to their sex. Except Ned. We never see Ned's wolf. We never see Ned's death. His fate is *unknown* to us. And if the wolf-portent can't be used as canonical evidence against the theory that Varys staged the execution, then there *is no canonical proof* that Ned died. Only speculative, although being beheaded by his own honorable blade is somewhat tempting. On the other hand, there is a great deal of evidence that Ned's head wasn't on that block.

We made up our minds too soon. Thoughts?

labor
User ID: 0798784 May 16th 4:40 AM
Catelyn's animal would be a trout, not a wolf... Sansa had seen Ned die and from quite a short distance too. Also, before the children no Stark had bonded to a direwolf for at the very least 200 years. Neither Ned nor Benjen (nor Brandon and Lyanna for that matter) ever had direwolves.

Besides, death of the warg-animal doesn't mean that the person will also die, i.e. Sansa and death of the person doesn't mean that the warg-animal will also die - i.e. wildling's eagle which pursued Jon and Quorin. Nothing against the papa-wolf being alive and Ned being dead, so far.

Swithin
User ID: 1460434 May 16th 4:46 AM
labor, good points.

I still feel that the *mood* in which each wolf meets its fate is relevent to each corresponding Stark. Lady died, but I didn't claim that Sansa was going to die... only that her 'Starkness' was gone. Catelyn lost her composure and self control after Ned's 'death', and I think that that was foreshadowed by the death of her wolf. She lost her honor. As for Ghost, he has a separate honor and appearance from the other wolves... as does Jon. I'm not saying that the humans and the wolves are mirror images of each other, only that the wolves personificate some aspects and qualities of each of the humans (particularly those which demarcate them as 'Starks'.) In this context, Ned is still not addressed, whereas everyone else is.

Also, if all the other wolves are gender co-equal with their counterparts, why was Ned's wolf female?

labor
User ID: 0798784 May 16th 4:57 AM
Perhaps because it wasn't "Ned's" wolf at all? No more than the white stag which Robert went to hunt and which was killed by wolves before Robert reached him was "Robert's" stag?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 16th 5:41 AM
Got to go with labor. The wolf represents the Starks in general, more than anything. House Stark, destroyed/on the edge of destruction because of the "Baratheons".

In fact, this really has to be it, if one presumes that Jon is not Ned's actual son.

I see no canonical lack of proof that Ned died. He sounded like Ned, he acted like Ned, he looked like Ned, his head rolled around like Ned's would have if it had been cut off. Varys was as surprised as anyone else that Ned's head was lopped off, which takes a great big gust of wind out of the sail that Ned was replaced by some Faceless Man by Varys.

And, of course, GRRM said that he wanted to kill someone big off. It's gonna suck, big time, if it turns out he was misleading us.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 May 16th 6:03 AM
Point one;

We have no evidence for the claim that _every_ Stark must have a corresponding direwolf. Benjen is also a Stark.

Point two;

What does it take for people to believe a character is dead, really? What constitutes 'canonical proof'?
Must we have Ned's PoV, where he in grim detail shows us the pain of one's head being severed from the body, followed by one's soul sweeping out of the flesh and into the Dark Cold Weirwood-forested Hinterlands (or whereever northerners go when they're dead :P )?

For all practical purposes, we _saw_ Ned die. Both Sansa and Arya had no doubt whatsoever that it was their father 'whose head was on the block'.
We have no indication that anybody could have 'switched' Ned - not even Varys.

If it wasn't Ned on the block, why would Varys bother to protest? It would have _endangered_ Varys if the 'switch guy' had survived - dead men cannot talk (and give themselves away).

Furthermore, how did Varys come up with a guy that willingly sacrificed his head for Ned's sake? Without the smallest hint of intent to shout that he _wasn't_ Ned Stark, but an impostor?

Ned is dead. Period.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 May 16th 8:19 AM
Just to pile on a bit, we havent heard a single character even speculate that Ned might be alove. Cersei, Jaime, etc, all seem to think that Ned is dead, and they were as close as anyone to the actual execution.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 May 16th 8:28 AM
GRRM said in his Event Horizon chat that he likes to kill off a major character early to let the readers know that he is playing for keeps. He went on to speculate that in Tolkien's LOTR that Gandalf should have stayed dead. Now, do you think someone who believes that will bring Eddard back?

I don't think so.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 May 16th 10:48 AM
Again, this goes to the issue of the credibility of the story. Brining Ned back would be disastrous to the notion that this is a real world where everyone is fair game. And that's the very thing that makes this story so exciting.

I agree with those who say that "Ned is dead. Period." If he comes back, the story is cheapened. GRRM certainly knows that.

Padraig
User ID: 8966303 May 16th 3:30 PM
Yes, i'm getting the strong impression here that most people think Ned is dead;)

Nightfearer
User ID: 0429484 May 16th 4:22 PM
KAH, I'm not even sure that the POV would satisfy some people, considering Asmodean in WOT. We got _his_ POV, but still some readers think he's alive. As for my opinion, as Bruce Willis would have put it::

"Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead."

Carol
User ID: 9349783 May 16th 6:26 PM
I can't help myself. I'll take one more shot at it. I believe that something was weird about Ned's death. There are several mentions -- Arya's and Sansa's both, I think -- to Ned"s legs thrashing as he died. In at least one case, the description was in italics, to underscore it. Except Ned's leg was broken at the time.

My scenario is that Varys was unconvinced about Ned's playing out the scene as he was told. He never actually agrees to, even after Varys plays the daughter card. To ensure that the scene goes down properly,Varys replaced Ned with a faceless man, to make the speech, get the sentence, and then to switch back when Ned was sent to the wall. The execution came too swiftly for the dude to change back, and that's why Varys was upset.

So now Varys has Ned stashed away in a dungeon somewhere, maybe ill, maybe out of his mind, to hold in reserve for some future power play.

The major character that died was Robert.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 16th 6:35 PM
A broken lower leg doesn't keep a person from moving it, though. There are plenty of folk hobbling about on crutches who can lift their leg up to keep it from dragging on the ground or otherwise being an impediment. :)

And, in any case, it isn't thrashing but a jerk. Much less action and entirely understandable, given that it happened just as the sword lopped off his head: it's the death-spasm, and the only way those legs wouldn't have moved is if Ned were paralyzed.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 May 16th 10:21 PM
Ned is dead . . . give it up! :)

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 May 17th 0:04 AM
Carol, sure, Ned's death was weird because he wasn't supposed to die in the first place. He was due for the Wall.

I would dearly love to see Ned alive again but he's dead.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 May 17th 8:40 AM
I think the strongest argument against Ned being alive are Mr. Martin's own comments regarding the deat of a character and his stated aversion to resurrecting supposedly dead characters.

Emily
User ID: 2192024 May 17th 11:56 AM
Except that GRRM DID resurrect a dead character - in the very first chapter, no, in the PROLOGUE of AGOT.

Not that I'm really arguing...whatshisname scaring the hell out of me by popping up as an Other does NOT compare with a sickly happy-ever-after Ned resurrection. As far as I'm concerned, Ned is as dead as a dodo.

sparhawk
User ID: 0436494 May 17th 12:17 PM
french chick: "but who's ned?"
bruce willis: "ned's dead, baby, ned's dead"
<roars off on ned's motorbike>

I THANK YOU.

Flayed Man
User ID: 9844073 May 17th 1:58 PM
well if ned is alive it just won't make any sense in the story and also can unbalance everything. As of old veteran, Dany will obviously shiver to face the "robert's dog", and Dornishmen won't have guts to face dreaded commander of north once again. Also i think Cersei already admitted that ned is dead. NED IS DEAD PERIOD!

carol
User ID: 0060104 May 17th 3:27 PM
So okay, Ned is dead. But just to be clear, I wouldn't have seen it as some wimpy happily ever after thing. In GRRM's hands, I'd expect it with a wild twist. Maybe a permanently damaged Ned, or an insane Ned -- does anyone remember the fool in Tigana?

Next 20 Messages

Swithin User ID: 1460434	May 16th 4:34 AM It's all in the direwolves. So every character got a wolf, born of a wolf run through the heart by a hart. That seems to be a pretty obvious metaphor for Ned Stark's death... but is it? Let us count the wolves... five living, one dead. Now let us count the Starks... seven. Hmm. All the boy Starks got a he-wolf, all the girl Starks got a she-wolf. Except Ned. We always expected that the mother was his symbolic wolf... it's Catelyn's! After Ned's disappearance, she has died as a Stark, just as Sansa has. Catelyn at the actions of the Baratheons, and Sansa at the hands of her father, through his death. So if the mother is Catelyn's symbol of Starkhood, where is the papa-wolf? ...MISSING... Everyone has a wolf corresponding to their sex. Except Ned. We never see Ned's wolf. We never see Ned's death. His fate is unknown to us. And if the wolf-portent can't be used as canonical evidence against the theory that Varys staged the execution, then there is no canonical proof that Ned died. Only speculative, although being beheaded by his own honorable blade is somewhat tempting. On the other hand, there is a great deal of evidence that Ned's head wasn't on that block. We made up our minds too soon. Thoughts?
labor User ID: 0798784	May 16th 4:40 AM Catelyn's animal would be a trout, not a wolf... Sansa had seen Ned die and from quite a short distance too. Also, before the children no Stark had bonded to a direwolf for at the very least 200 years. Neither Ned nor Benjen (nor Brandon and Lyanna for that matter) ever had direwolves. Besides, death of the warg-animal doesn't mean that the person will also die, i.e. Sansa and death of the person doesn't mean that the warg-animal will also die - i.e. wildling's eagle which pursued Jon and Quorin. Nothing against the papa-wolf being alive and Ned being dead, so far.
Swithin User ID: 1460434	May 16th 4:46 AM labor, good points. I still feel that the mood in which each wolf meets its fate is relevent to each corresponding Stark. Lady died, but I didn't claim that Sansa was going to die... only that her 'Starkness' was gone. Catelyn lost her composure and self control after Ned's 'death', and I think that that was foreshadowed by the death of her wolf. She lost her honor. As for Ghost, he has a separate honor and appearance from the other wolves... as does Jon. I'm not saying that the humans and the wolves are mirror images of each other, only that the wolves personificate some aspects and qualities of each of the humans (particularly those which demarcate them as 'Starks'.) In this context, Ned is still not addressed, whereas everyone else is. Also, if all the other wolves are gender co-equal with their counterparts, why was Ned's wolf female?
labor User ID: 0798784	May 16th 4:57 AM Perhaps because it wasn't "Ned's" wolf at all? No more than the white stag which Robert went to hunt and which was killed by wolves before Robert reached him was "Robert's" stag?
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 16th 5:41 AM Got to go with labor. The wolf represents the Starks in general, more than anything. House Stark, destroyed/on the edge of destruction because of the "Baratheons". In fact, this really has to be it, if one presumes that Jon is not Ned's actual son. I see no canonical lack of proof that Ned died. He sounded like Ned, he acted like Ned, he looked like Ned, his head rolled around like Ned's would have if it had been cut off. Varys was as surprised as anyone else that Ned's head was lopped off, which takes a great big gust of wind out of the sail that Ned was replaced by some Faceless Man by Varys. And, of course, GRRM said that he wanted to kill someone big off. It's gonna suck, big time, if it turns out he was misleading us.
KAH User ID: 0541004	May 16th 6:03 AM Point one; We have no evidence for the claim that _every_ Stark must have a corresponding direwolf. Benjen is also a Stark. Point two; What does it take for people to believe a character is dead, really? What constitutes 'canonical proof'? Must we have Ned's PoV, where he in grim detail shows us the pain of one's head being severed from the body, followed by one's soul sweeping out of the flesh and into the Dark Cold Weirwood-forested Hinterlands (or whereever northerners go when they're dead :P )? For all practical purposes, we _saw_ Ned die. Both Sansa and Arya had no doubt whatsoever that it was their father 'whose head was on the block'. We have no indication that anybody could have 'switched' Ned - not even Varys. If it wasn't Ned on the block, why would Varys bother to protest? It would have _endangered_ Varys if the 'switch guy' had survived - dead men cannot talk (and give themselves away). Furthermore, how did Varys come up with a guy that willingly sacrificed his head for Ned's sake? Without the smallest hint of intent to shout that he _wasn't_ Ned Stark, but an impostor? Ned is dead. Period.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	May 16th 8:19 AM Just to pile on a bit, we havent heard a single character even speculate that Ned might be alove. Cersei, Jaime, etc, all seem to think that Ned is dead, and they were as close as anyone to the actual execution.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	May 16th 8:28 AM GRRM said in his Event Horizon chat that he likes to kill off a major character early to let the readers know that he is playing for keeps. He went on to speculate that in Tolkien's LOTR that Gandalf should have stayed dead. Now, do you think someone who believes that will bring Eddard back? I don't think so.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	May 16th 10:48 AM Again, this goes to the issue of the credibility of the story. Brining Ned back would be disastrous to the notion that this is a real world where everyone is fair game. And that's the very thing that makes this story so exciting. I agree with those who say that "Ned is dead. Period." If he comes back, the story is cheapened. GRRM certainly knows that.
Padraig User ID: 8966303	May 16th 3:30 PM Yes, i'm getting the strong impression here that most people think Ned is dead;)
Nightfearer User ID: 0429484	May 16th 4:22 PM KAH, I'm not even sure that the POV would satisfy some people, considering Asmodean in WOT. We got _his_ POV, but still some readers think he's alive. As for my opinion, as Bruce Willis would have put it:: "Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead."
Carol User ID: 9349783	May 16th 6:26 PM I can't help myself. I'll take one more shot at it. I believe that something was weird about Ned's death. There are several mentions -- Arya's and Sansa's both, I think -- to Ned"s legs thrashing as he died. In at least one case, the description was in italics, to underscore it. Except Ned's leg was broken at the time. My scenario is that Varys was unconvinced about Ned's playing out the scene as he was told. He never actually agrees to, even after Varys plays the daughter card. To ensure that the scene goes down properly,Varys replaced Ned with a faceless man, to make the speech, get the sentence, and then to switch back when Ned was sent to the wall. The execution came too swiftly for the dude to change back, and that's why Varys was upset. So now Varys has Ned stashed away in a dungeon somewhere, maybe ill, maybe out of his mind, to hold in reserve for some future power play. The major character that died was Robert.
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 16th 6:35 PM A broken lower leg doesn't keep a person from moving it, though. There are plenty of folk hobbling about on crutches who can lift their leg up to keep it from dragging on the ground or otherwise being an impediment. :) And, in any case, it isn't thrashing but a jerk. Much less action and entirely understandable, given that it happened just as the sword lopped off his head: it's the death-spasm, and the only way those legs wouldn't have moved is if Ned were paralyzed.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	May 16th 10:21 PM Ned is dead . . . give it up! :)
Moreta User ID: 0701364	May 17th 0:04 AM Carol, sure, Ned's death was weird because he wasn't supposed to die in the first place. He was due for the Wall. I would dearly love to see Ned alive again but he's dead.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	May 17th 8:40 AM I think the strongest argument against Ned being alive are Mr. Martin's own comments regarding the deat of a character and his stated aversion to resurrecting supposedly dead characters.
Emily User ID: 2192024	May 17th 11:56 AM Except that GRRM DID resurrect a dead character - in the very first chapter, no, in the PROLOGUE of AGOT. Not that I'm really arguing...whatshisname scaring the hell out of me by popping up as an Other does NOT compare with a sickly happy-ever-after Ned resurrection. As far as I'm concerned, Ned is as dead as a dodo.
sparhawk User ID: 0436494	May 17th 12:17 PM french chick: "but who's ned?" bruce willis: "ned's dead, baby, ned's dead" <roars off on ned's motorbike> I THANK YOU.
Flayed Man User ID: 9844073	May 17th 1:58 PM well if ned is alive it just won't make any sense in the story and also can unbalance everything. As of old veteran, Dany will obviously shiver to face the "robert's dog", and Dornishmen won't have guts to face dreaded commander of north once again. Also i think Cersei already admitted that ned is dead. NED IS DEAD PERIOD!
carol User ID: 0060104	May 17th 3:27 PM So okay, Ned is dead. But just to be clear, I wouldn't have seen it as some wimpy happily ever after thing. In GRRM's hands, I'd expect it with a wild twist. Maybe a permanently damaged Ned, or an insane Ned -- does anyone remember the fool in Tigana?