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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Jaime Lannister IV

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Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 29th 4:03 PM
Since the last thread appears to be broken, I'll repeat Kay-Arne's last post:

* * *
All right, I might as well do some summing up on my view on all this.

1) I acknowledge that several hints in the Cat PoV
suggests that Cat indeed was planning to free Jaime, after taking an oath of some sort from him.
I also acknowledge that the lack of hints for the other plausible alternatives (given the sword request), makes it likely that these will probably be spur-of-the-moment events, if they happen.

2) I still contend that virtually any other _properly planned_ action wrt Jaime would have made more sense than freeing him in the fashion suggested (killing him excepted).

While objections of the sort;
"But that sword is not a scalpel, she'd more likely kill Jaime than maim him!"
are valid in a limited sort of sense, their validity only goes so far as to point out the 'spur-of-the-moment' nature these actions probably would have, given that the PoV text suggests that she planned to free him instead of something else.

That is, if Cat had _planned properly_ how the maiming should take place, she would not have asked for a sword.

She might instead (prior to the event) have obtained the following objects;

exhibit A; a truncheon

exhibit B; a meat cleaver

exhibit C; bandages and other assorted medical equipment

With which she would first have gone through the would-be wine-induced interrogation, as she did in factuality.

Thereafter, she would have implemented
exhibit A in such a fashion as to obtain the desired state of unconsciousness in her victim (i.e. bollicks Jaime over the head repeatedly with the truncheon),
then implement exhibit B as a much-preferred substitute to the ridiculously unwieldly sword, and remove the victim's targeted appendages (i.e. hack off a few fingers on his sword hand),
and finally, in order to not reduce the victims trade value to an irreversible and undesirable level, see to that the victim's body liquids do not exit unduly via the irregular openings created by exhibit B - this achieved by the proper implementation of exhibit C (i.e. bandage Jaime's hand, so that the useless bastard does not bleed to death).

This is _proper planning_. This will, of course, not happen because the PoV text indicates differently.

However, I wish to point out that the
PoV text does not in any way indicate _what is the preferrable, logical action_, just what is _likely_ to happen. These are not the same.

Considering how it is likely that Cat will free Jaime because of planning beforehand for days, _why the hell did she not come up with something else_? (note; it did not need to be maiming - that's just because the sword thingee narrowed the actual possibilities down - I have suggested other and IMHO better plans)

3) If Cat does, in fact, free Jaime, I see a few possible outcomes.

a: Sansa is not freed.

This could be caused by various reasons - Jaime does not keep his vow, lord Tywin is uncooperative, or some other, freaky thing happens.
All the singers of Westeros will sing beautiful songs of the gentle mother who freed the Kingslayer in desperate love for her daughter.
Sansa will hear these songs, and cry.
Everyone in Westeros with a thimble of sense will wonder how Catelyn managed to transform her brain into a quivering loofah so fast, and I will be closing my eyes, muttering to myself an almost indiscernible mantra - "Please tell me Martin didn't make her do that! Please tell me Martin didn't make her do that! [...]" - all the while until aDwD comes out.

b: Sansa is freed.

It doesn't really matter how this comes about - if Jaime does an inspired an daring resque, or if lord Tywin's heart softens for the dear mother - it still will be the equivalent of Jordan's Godsforsaken ta'verenness (*Hack! Ptoo!*).

All the singers in Westeros will sing even more beautiful songs about the whole event - Sansa will hear them, and decide that her glimmering grasps of reality sense is an unproductive waste of time; that women's place in the world indeed is to let the man come rescue her (even men like Jaime or lord Tywin), and not burden her pretty little head with such mundane activities as _thinking_.

She will hence (naturally) take up singing and playing the high harp as a 'profession'. Together with her mother.

Everyone in Westeros with a thimble of sense will wonder what the hell happened.
cgob will obtain irrefutable proof that Jordan, jealous of Martin's popularity, surreptitiously kidnapped GRRM and his family after aCoK, and gleefully made random changes in aSoS (hence the freeing).

And I will be cannon-vomiting my innards down the Altar of the Porcelain God; all the while banging my forehead on the toilet ring, just out of sheer disgust.

c: Please, please let there be a c. I don't know what it would be, but please, _please_ let there be a c.

But basically, I view this as a lose-lose situation.

4) There are some small facts that go against the
freeing theory (besides it being stupid, I mean), most notably the fact that Jaime was drunk. I don't find this congruent with Cat taking an oath of him, and I see no other reasonable freeing-theory-related use of the sword, aside from making him swear an oath.

And so I cling desperately to that, hoping that it means something.

And with that, I hereby end my polemic in this thread (so far, at least).

*bows*

* * *

Disclaimer;
None of the posts I've made in this thread, however eviscerating they might sound, was intended to imply anything at all about fellow posters and ther intelligence level. I just get carried away. Truly.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 29th 4:09 PM
Maybe I've got a "c" that might work:

Tywin decides to "free" Sansa, but _not_ let her return to the North. The North is such a dangerous place, after all, what with Roose Bolton betraying Robb and those nasty ironmen running around. Poor girl. So, out of the goodness of his heart, he has her sent somewhere away from him -- so that he cannot be accused of holding her "prisoner" -- that gives her the illusion of freedom but still leaves her in the effective control of the crown.

Maybe Highgarden?

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 29th 5:10 PM
That was frustrating!

What I meant to say was -

It should be also considered, KAH, that Cat well could have thought that Tyrion was in control in KL at the time she spoke with Jaime.And he has shown both glimmerings of honor and softer heart than the other Lannisters.
If Cat was convinced of Tyrion's innoncence in attempt on Bran, then it wouldn't be too far-fetched for her to hope that Tyrion will reciprocate in kind.

haaruk Mar 29th 8:27 PM
Catelyn abducts the innocent brother and then frees the guilty one. It might not happen. There are numerous possibilities. Yet the irony is so perfect. The symmetry so clear. How can Martin resist?

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 Mar 29th 9:19 PM
If Stark fortunes suffer a serious downturn in ASOS, which I suspect is quite likely, Sansa's value as a hostage diminishes rapidly. Why hold her when the Starks are (apparently) defeated? Now, Catelyn can't possily predict this, but from Tywin's perspective, a release might make sense at that point.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 30th 7:23 AM
Labor;

Well, as far as Cat should be concerned, Tyrion mostly have done everything (that she knows of) out of self interest - even saving her from the mountain men might be construed that way.
Besides, I don't know how far I'd trust someone who sent killers under a peace banner.

Jeff; - well, sure - Stark fortunes is all well and good. It does not really change any facts as to how I'd view Cat's actions.
However, I'll grant that it is not as cliched as the other outcomes, and so will make it a slightly better pill for me to swallow...

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 30th 9:10 AM
Kay-Arne, your'e obviously correct about Catelyn's perceptions being the only way to judge the reasonableness of her actions. Release would be an act of desperation, which is the only way I can justify it to myself.

For what its worth, I don't think Tywin will completely release her. I think a halfway measure seems more likely, if only for the plot development reasons outlines by haaruk. Having her just trudge back to Riverrun seems sort of like a dead-end for her character.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 30th 10:37 AM
Man, I just won't let this topic die...

What would happen if Catelyn asked Jaime to secure Sansa's release, but made _no_ provision to obtain the release of other northern lords and men held captive by the Lannisters from the Green Fork? I didn't think about that until just now, but my guess is that the other lords would be extremely pissed off.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 30th 12:23 PM
Why should they be pissed off, Jeff? The Stark-Tully forces have enough prisoners themselves to trade them against their own taken at the Green Fork thrice over. I wonder why no one has done so yet, except for old Lord Walder,who just payed ransom.
It is also a bit strange that Lord Karstark was so vocal in demanding Jaime killed, when his own only remaining son and heir is prisoner to Lord Tywin... Especially since it seems that there are no ther Karstarks left except for the two of them.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 30th 1:16 PM
But Jaime is the best card they hold -- easily worth a lot more than Sansa. IIRC correctly, the prisoner exchange Robb proposed included exchanging everyone _except_ Jaime. Releasing Jaime and getting nothing but Sansa in return tells your bannermen that they and their men don't matter to you.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 30th 1:35 PM
Why? Surely Robb could trade someone else for his bannermen. If he cared to. It surprises me a bit that apparently he did not.

Blackstone
User ID: 9858163 Mar 30th 1:41 PM
I Cat frees the Kingslayer I will never ever read a POV chapter from her again. I won't care whether or not I miss half the story as a result.

The Kingslayer in chains is the only thing that will keep Robb and Edmure's head attached to their respective bodies if Robb loses in the feild.

That Robb will lose is almost certain now. The North is gone. Bolton and Frey are traitors. His army, small but feisty compared to the armies of the South is rapidly being spent.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 30th 2:00 PM
Jeff;

I think the sole fact that Cat released the Kingslayer in the first place, will make them immensely more pissed that the fact that she didn't 'get more in the bargain'...

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 30th 5:04 PM
Blackstone, Catelyn knows nothing about the Tyrell/Lannister alliance. From Catelyn's perspective, a Lannister victory appears to be a very slim possibility. Robb has won all of his battles and the Lannisters have lost a lot of men. More importantly, though, she knows that Stannis has more than enough strength to take KL. Its not a Lannister victory that worries her.

I think her primary concern is Sansa being killed either by Stannis' troops during the sack of KL or by the Lannisters when defeat appears certain. If she doesn't get Sansa out before then, she's a goner. Holding Jaime as a "bargaining chip" is useless if KL falls.

Kay-Arne, I agree. But releasing him while getting only Sansa in return makes it even more stupid and more outrageous. I could certainly here Karstark raging about how Catelyn gave away the only thing that preserved the life of his last remaining son, and was so stupid that she didn't even _ask_ for the release of anyone else. And I think that would be a very good point. If there were no other prisoners involved, some might be willing to excuse Catelyn's motherly concern in trying to save the life of her daughter, particularly after being notified of the death of Bran and Rickon. But being concerned only for her own pain when others also have loved ones as prisoners is really inexcusable. For me, that would be the thing that would piss me off the most about her action because it would be so damn selfish.

by Stannis or by the Lannisters. If Robb were more mature, he would not try to fight Tywin at all.o

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 30th 5:19 PM
Jeff,

My guess as to Catelyn's view on this is that releasing Jaime, with the only condition being Sansa's release, will almost certainly force Robb to abandon his plans and sue for peace. I'm not certain she's reading her son right in this, but if that's what she believes, then the act of asking for the gurantee of _only_ Sansa shows a certain willingness for the Northerners to be open-minded and equitable when it comes to the exchange of prisoners.

If Tywin is leading things, and he's of the opinion that peace is better than fighting, he might be entirely open to releasing the other prisoners -- perhaps in a staggered manner over a few years, as Robb himself planned in his peace offer.

This may be a situation where Cat believes that doing the worst possible job of releasing Sansa is the most likely to bring about a positive impact for the Starks and the North in that Robb will quit his fighting in the south and deal with their home.

She might not be wrong. I don't know. I half suspect that Robb will try to fight on two fronts, but I could well be wrong. If she releases Jaime, she's certainly found a very good way to force a consideration of the issue.

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 Mar 30th 9:23 PM
I think you're right, Ran, and its not bad reasoning on her part. But that doesn't mean that the other northerners will be happy about it.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 30th 9:36 PM
All the better, isn't it? ;)

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Mar 31st 11:06 AM
Ran, do you think Jaime could've been Renly's ghost, at the Battle of the Blackwater?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 31st 2:59 PM
You know, not really. You'd think they'd sort of reveal it at the victory ceremony. Why not? A triumphant victory over Stannis, largely in part because of Jaime, whose safe return also happens to mean that the Northerners are really in a great bind.

I certainly can't see why they would hide it, unless something prevented it -- maybe Cat cut his nose off first or something? ;)

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 Apr 1st 1:13 PM
Maybe Cat will just cut Jaime's hair. Grab a chunk of his long hair and cut it. In her POV, she thinks to herself that his hair is unwashed and long. This could be the answer! Wishful thinking, I know.

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Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 29th 4:03 PM Since the last thread appears to be broken, I'll repeat Kay-Arne's last post: * * * All right, I might as well do some summing up on my view on all this. 1) I acknowledge that several hints in the Cat PoV suggests that Cat indeed was planning to free Jaime, after taking an oath of some sort from him. I also acknowledge that the lack of hints for the other plausible alternatives (given the sword request), makes it likely that these will probably be spur-of-the-moment events, if they happen. 2) I still contend that virtually any other _properly planned_ action wrt Jaime would have made more sense than freeing him in the fashion suggested (killing him excepted). While objections of the sort; "But that sword is not a scalpel, she'd more likely kill Jaime than maim him!" are valid in a limited sort of sense, their validity only goes so far as to point out the 'spur-of-the-moment' nature these actions probably would have, given that the PoV text suggests that she planned to free him instead of something else. That is, if Cat had _planned properly_ how the maiming should take place, she would not have asked for a sword. She might instead (prior to the event) have obtained the following objects; exhibit A; a truncheon exhibit B; a meat cleaver exhibit C; bandages and other assorted medical equipment With which she would first have gone through the would-be wine-induced interrogation, as she did in factuality. Thereafter, she would have implemented exhibit A in such a fashion as to obtain the desired state of unconsciousness in her victim (i.e. bollicks Jaime over the head repeatedly with the truncheon), then implement exhibit B as a much-preferred substitute to the ridiculously unwieldly sword, and remove the victim's targeted appendages (i.e. hack off a few fingers on his sword hand), and finally, in order to not reduce the victims trade value to an irreversible and undesirable level, see to that the victim's body liquids do not exit unduly via the irregular openings created by exhibit B - this achieved by the proper implementation of exhibit C (i.e. bandage Jaime's hand, so that the useless bastard does not bleed to death). This is _proper planning_. This will, of course, not happen because the PoV text indicates differently. However, I wish to point out that the PoV text does not in any way indicate _what is the preferrable, logical action_, just what is _likely_ to happen. These are not the same. Considering how it is likely that Cat will free Jaime because of planning beforehand for days, _why the hell did she not come up with something else_? (note; it did not need to be maiming - that's just because the sword thingee narrowed the actual possibilities down - I have suggested other and IMHO better plans) 3) If Cat does, in fact, free Jaime, I see a few possible outcomes. a: Sansa is not freed. This could be caused by various reasons - Jaime does not keep his vow, lord Tywin is uncooperative, or some other, freaky thing happens. All the singers of Westeros will sing beautiful songs of the gentle mother who freed the Kingslayer in desperate love for her daughter. Sansa will hear these songs, and cry. Everyone in Westeros with a thimble of sense will wonder how Catelyn managed to transform her brain into a quivering loofah so fast, and I will be closing my eyes, muttering to myself an almost indiscernible mantra - "Please tell me Martin didn't make her do that! Please tell me Martin didn't make her do that! [...]" - all the while until aDwD comes out. b: Sansa is freed. It doesn't really matter how this comes about - if Jaime does an inspired an daring resque, or if lord Tywin's heart softens for the dear mother - it still will be the equivalent of Jordan's Godsforsaken ta'verenness (Hack! Ptoo!). All the singers in Westeros will sing even more beautiful songs about the whole event - Sansa will hear them, and decide that her glimmering grasps of reality sense is an unproductive waste of time; that women's place in the world indeed is to let the man come rescue her (even men like Jaime or lord Tywin), and not burden her pretty little head with such mundane activities as _thinking_. She will hence (naturally) take up singing and playing the high harp as a 'profession'. Together with her mother. Everyone in Westeros with a thimble of sense will wonder what the hell happened. cgob will obtain irrefutable proof that Jordan, jealous of Martin's popularity, surreptitiously kidnapped GRRM and his family after aCoK, and gleefully made random changes in aSoS (hence the freeing). And I will be cannon-vomiting my innards down the Altar of the Porcelain God; all the while banging my forehead on the toilet ring, just out of sheer disgust. c: Please, please let there be a c. I don't know what it would be, but please, _please_ let there be a c. But basically, I view this as a lose-lose situation. 4) There are some small facts that go against the freeing theory (besides it being stupid, I mean), most notably the fact that Jaime was drunk. I don't find this congruent with Cat taking an oath of him, and I see no other reasonable freeing-theory-related use of the sword, aside from making him swear an oath. And so I cling desperately to that, hoping that it means something. And with that, I hereby end my polemic in this thread (so far, at least). bows * * * Disclaimer; None of the posts I've made in this thread, however eviscerating they might sound, was intended to imply anything at all about fellow posters and ther intelligence level. I just get carried away. Truly.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 29th 4:09 PM Maybe I've got a "c" that might work: Tywin decides to "free" Sansa, but _not_ let her return to the North. The North is such a dangerous place, after all, what with Roose Bolton betraying Robb and those nasty ironmen running around. Poor girl. So, out of the goodness of his heart, he has her sent somewhere away from him -- so that he cannot be accused of holding her "prisoner" -- that gives her the illusion of freedom but still leaves her in the effective control of the crown. Maybe Highgarden?
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 29th 5:10 PM That was frustrating! What I meant to say was - It should be also considered, KAH, that Cat well could have thought that Tyrion was in control in KL at the time she spoke with Jaime.And he has shown both glimmerings of honor and softer heart than the other Lannisters. If Cat was convinced of Tyrion's innoncence in attempt on Bran, then it wouldn't be too far-fetched for her to hope that Tyrion will reciprocate in kind.
haaruk	Mar 29th 8:27 PM Catelyn abducts the innocent brother and then frees the guilty one. It might not happen. There are numerous possibilities. Yet the irony is so perfect. The symmetry so clear. How can Martin resist?
Jeff User ID: 8813033	Mar 29th 9:19 PM If Stark fortunes suffer a serious downturn in ASOS, which I suspect is quite likely, Sansa's value as a hostage diminishes rapidly. Why hold her when the Starks are (apparently) defeated? Now, Catelyn can't possily predict this, but from Tywin's perspective, a release might make sense at that point.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 30th 7:23 AM Labor; Well, as far as Cat should be concerned, Tyrion mostly have done everything (that she knows of) out of self interest - even saving her from the mountain men might be construed that way. Besides, I don't know how far I'd trust someone who sent killers under a peace banner. Jeff; - well, sure - Stark fortunes is all well and good. It does not really change any facts as to how I'd view Cat's actions. However, I'll grant that it is not as cliched as the other outcomes, and so will make it a slightly better pill for me to swallow...
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 30th 9:10 AM Kay-Arne, your'e obviously correct about Catelyn's perceptions being the only way to judge the reasonableness of her actions. Release would be an act of desperation, which is the only way I can justify it to myself. For what its worth, I don't think Tywin will completely release her. I think a halfway measure seems more likely, if only for the plot development reasons outlines by haaruk. Having her just trudge back to Riverrun seems sort of like a dead-end for her character.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 30th 10:37 AM Man, I just won't let this topic die... What would happen if Catelyn asked Jaime to secure Sansa's release, but made _no_ provision to obtain the release of other northern lords and men held captive by the Lannisters from the Green Fork? I didn't think about that until just now, but my guess is that the other lords would be extremely pissed off.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 30th 12:23 PM Why should they be pissed off, Jeff? The Stark-Tully forces have enough prisoners themselves to trade them against their own taken at the Green Fork thrice over. I wonder why no one has done so yet, except for old Lord Walder,who just payed ransom. It is also a bit strange that Lord Karstark was so vocal in demanding Jaime killed, when his own only remaining son and heir is prisoner to Lord Tywin... Especially since it seems that there are no ther Karstarks left except for the two of them.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 30th 1:16 PM But Jaime is the best card they hold -- easily worth a lot more than Sansa. IIRC correctly, the prisoner exchange Robb proposed included exchanging everyone _except_ Jaime. Releasing Jaime and getting nothing but Sansa in return tells your bannermen that they and their men don't matter to you.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 30th 1:35 PM Why? Surely Robb could trade someone else for his bannermen. If he cared to. It surprises me a bit that apparently he did not.
Blackstone User ID: 9858163	Mar 30th 1:41 PM I Cat frees the Kingslayer I will never ever read a POV chapter from her again. I won't care whether or not I miss half the story as a result. The Kingslayer in chains is the only thing that will keep Robb and Edmure's head attached to their respective bodies if Robb loses in the feild. That Robb will lose is almost certain now. The North is gone. Bolton and Frey are traitors. His army, small but feisty compared to the armies of the South is rapidly being spent.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 30th 2:00 PM Jeff; I think the sole fact that Cat released the Kingslayer in the first place, will make them immensely more pissed that the fact that she didn't 'get more in the bargain'...
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 30th 5:04 PM Blackstone, Catelyn knows nothing about the Tyrell/Lannister alliance. From Catelyn's perspective, a Lannister victory appears to be a very slim possibility. Robb has won all of his battles and the Lannisters have lost a lot of men. More importantly, though, she knows that Stannis has more than enough strength to take KL. Its not a Lannister victory that worries her. I think her primary concern is Sansa being killed either by Stannis' troops during the sack of KL or by the Lannisters when defeat appears certain. If she doesn't get Sansa out before then, she's a goner. Holding Jaime as a "bargaining chip" is useless if KL falls. Kay-Arne, I agree. But releasing him while getting only Sansa in return makes it even more stupid and more outrageous. I could certainly here Karstark raging about how Catelyn gave away the only thing that preserved the life of his last remaining son, and was so stupid that she didn't even _ask_ for the release of anyone else. And I think that would be a very good point. If there were no other prisoners involved, some might be willing to excuse Catelyn's motherly concern in trying to save the life of her daughter, particularly after being notified of the death of Bran and Rickon. But being concerned only for her own pain when others also have loved ones as prisoners is really inexcusable. For me, that would be the thing that would piss me off the most about her action because it would be so damn selfish. by Stannis or by the Lannisters. If Robb were more mature, he would not try to fight Tywin at all.o
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 30th 5:19 PM Jeff, My guess as to Catelyn's view on this is that releasing Jaime, with the only condition being Sansa's release, will almost certainly force Robb to abandon his plans and sue for peace. I'm not certain she's reading her son right in this, but if that's what she believes, then the act of asking for the gurantee of _only_ Sansa shows a certain willingness for the Northerners to be open-minded and equitable when it comes to the exchange of prisoners. If Tywin is leading things, and he's of the opinion that peace is better than fighting, he might be entirely open to releasing the other prisoners -- perhaps in a staggered manner over a few years, as Robb himself planned in his peace offer. This may be a situation where Cat believes that doing the worst possible job of releasing Sansa is the most likely to bring about a positive impact for the Starks and the North in that Robb will quit his fighting in the south and deal with their home. She might not be wrong. I don't know. I half suspect that Robb will try to fight on two fronts, but I could well be wrong. If she releases Jaime, she's certainly found a very good way to force a consideration of the issue.
Jeff User ID: 8813033	Mar 30th 9:23 PM I think you're right, Ran, and its not bad reasoning on her part. But that doesn't mean that the other northerners will be happy about it.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 30th 9:36 PM All the better, isn't it? ;)
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Mar 31st 11:06 AM Ran, do you think Jaime could've been Renly's ghost, at the Battle of the Blackwater?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 31st 2:59 PM You know, not really. You'd think they'd sort of reveal it at the victory ceremony. Why not? A triumphant victory over Stannis, largely in part because of Jaime, whose safe return also happens to mean that the Northerners are really in a great bind. I certainly can't see why they would hide it, unless something prevented it -- maybe Cat cut his nose off first or something? ;)
Moreta User ID: 0701364	Apr 1st 1:13 PM Maybe Cat will just cut Jaime's hair. Grab a chunk of his long hair and cut it. In her POV, she thinks to herself that his hair is unwashed and long. This could be the answer! Wishful thinking, I know.