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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / The Phantom Dragon

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Wethers
User ID: 2205324 Aug 19th 0:03 AM
Hi all. I'm new - tremendous set of boards you have here. And here I thought I was so original to think of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

There's one minor detail I have never seen discussed. It's loony and it's not even really a theory, but bear with me. Was there _some_ beast or spirit hibernating beneath the walls of Winterfell's First Keep that was woken by Ramsay Snow's sacking at the end of aCoK? Wait, before you start laughing, keep reading.

First go to one of Dany's visions in the chamber of the Undying (p. 530, US hardback): "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...". Ok, this by itself means little.

Next go to the last chapter, where Bran, as Summer, experiences the following outside a burning Winterfell (p. 719): "...in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars."

Well, it's clear that Summer knows what ordinary fire looks like, and he sees something specific on top of that which sounds an awful lot like a description of a dragon, or at least a powerful vision of one. Then again, the smoke and ash are in his eyes and the winged snake vanishes just as quickly as it appears.

Ok now skip to a throw-away hint GRRM gives us later in the same chapter (p. 725): "We made noise enough ***to wake a dragon***" Osha said, "but there's no one come. The castle's dead and burned, just as Bran dreamed..." (emphasis mine)

Also, look up the page a bit at GRRM's description of the First Keep - it is in the worst shape of anything around it, and looks almost as if something broke _out_ of it, knocking over one of the walls in the process.

Ok, I admit, this is most likely a ruse, or even completely unintentional - though I doubt that. Still, didn't GRRM indicate that it was possible that there were unhatched Dragon eggs about somewhere. If that, why not a hibernating dragon that only wakes when it is surrounded by cataclysmic fire and death (much like the hatching of Dany's eggs). At the very least, it makes you wonder just where those "hot springs" that heat Winterfell's walls come from ... =)

out

Wethers

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Aug 19th 0:44 AM
Wow, That's a great Theory. You may be right. Can't wait til the next book to find out. For now though, I'll have to re-read your bookmarks.

Good job, and welcome to our little family.

ab

Padraig
User ID: 0714654 Aug 19th 1:18 PM
I did laugh at first. Now all I can say is Wow, Wow, Wow!

Mike
User ID: 9990163 Aug 19th 1:58 PM
I hope it is true, Wethers, because it would be very cool.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Aug 19th 2:06 PM

A really intereseting theory, Wethers! Does someone remember if the First Keep is described as a tower? I had an impression of a rather wide and bulky structure, but I don't remember it that well. BTW, was the comet still in the sky, during the Sack of Winterfell? If it was, Summer could have been thinking about it. IIRC Nan said that the comet smelled of dragons or some such...

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Aug 19th 4:32 PM
The original keep was a tower. And it was broken.

This is great Wethers, fantastic. I keep going back to the "...he bares his teeth" thing. Is it the dragon that bares his teeth, or is is Summer. I think it's Summer, and it makes me wonder what would make a Direwolf (that hasn't been see South of the Wall in 400 years) bare it's teeth? A smoke pillar? Fire? Humph!

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Aug 19th 4:42 PM
Wethers, the mere fact that you concocted a brand new theory that none of us other obsessives had even dreamt of makes you a very welcome addition.

But how about the "cliffs"? Are there cliffs around Winterfell? That almost sounds more like a description of Dragonstone. Granted, they're not at Dragonstone, but does the vision necessarily have to be of Winterfell?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Aug 19th 5:25 PM
Well ...

'Cliffs' could be what Summer equates the stone walls and the like to.

I don't know. I've got a niggling feeling that this is mundane, somehow. Mainly it's the fact that I don't see the purpose of it. Why an unheralded creature bursting from underneath Winterfell? We've already got three dragons, do we need another? That kind of thing.

Well, for what it's worth, I'm leaning to Dragonstone on this .. but not ruling out Wethers' marvellous theory.

C arol
User ID: 9405543 Aug 19th 5:51 PM
I like it. We need a fresh pair of eyes and some original thinking. Let's look at what it might mean. I had the idea that when Dany's eggs hatched, there were three things needed to bring it about -- fire, death, and the presence of the "blood of the dragon," in that case, Dany herself, "the mother of dragons." But Jon was gone to the wall, so there was no Targaryen at Winterfell -- unless -- Meera?

Wethers
User ID: 2205324 Aug 19th 11:15 PM
Thanks for the comments folks !

Dirjj, Padraig, Mike: Woohoo - someone else likes my loony idea =)

Labor: I hear you - my first thought was the comet as well, but that seems even less likely to vanish suddenly than a dragon, and it's certainly not the first time Summer has seen the comet. I do remember Nan saying something dragon-ish about the comet, however ...

Claidhaim: You're right, what would cause Summer to bare his teeth at that particular moment when the fire had been burning for some time ?

Jeff: Good point on the cliffs. I had assumed that was Summer's interpretation of castle walls, as Ran suggests later.

Ran: Yup, it doesn't quite fit, does it ? Clearly, however, there was _something_ there, based on Summer's reaction. Could it be a "third eye" glimpse of the future, perhaps ?

Carol: Thanks, and I _certainly_ did not think about Meera/"blood of the dragon". She would be about the right age to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child as well - i.e. about the same age as Jon, but fostered by Howland Reed. I'm not really sure if she looks like either a Stark or a Targaryen, however ...

out

Wethers

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Aug 20th 5:19 AM
I'll just note the looney theory that I believe I'm the first to have come up with, concerning Meera and the like.

The idea basically runs that Lyanna had twins (so that we could get a reasonable 'the dragon has three heads' of Jon, Meera, and Dany.) Ned took the boy to Winterfell to raise as his own son and Howland Reed took the girl to raise as his own among the crannogmen (for safety.)

Perhaps the crannogmen don't use bastard names -- so, Meera Reed rather than Meera Snow. In any case ... Meera is very short, no taller than Bran who's about 9 years old. She's also 16 (same age as Jon.) Her hair is brown (a Stark brown? No clue.) While we constantly hear about Jojen's weird, moss green eyes, we never once learn what color her eyes are.

Also, Bran thinks to himself that the way she enjoys playing various games and the like reminds him of Arya. If one will remember, Ned makes a reference to the fact that Arya reminds him of Lyanna.

So ... does she have Stark eyes and hair, and Targaryen facial features? Who knows. Certainly, the size is a big issue, but not perhaps as big an issue as I once thought -- others have pointed out that the diet of the crannogmen would not be very good even in the best of conditions, and young women are particularly hard-hit because of poor nutrition.

In any case, it's a looney one. I don't quite know what to think anymore. I'll laugh if Meera is revealed a Targaryen. ;)

labor
User ID: 8479113 Aug 20th 8:51 AM

Well, I had a rather weird idea concerning "dragon has three heads". Both Dany and Jon (or whoever Lyanna's child was, if you wish) are third children of respective "dragons". Does it mean that the "third head" will have to be third child as well?

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Aug 20th 9:53 AM
I've always thought that the third dragon rider would be either Bran or Tyrion. I suppose the third child thing would suggest Tyrion.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Aug 20th 10:17 AM

I thought about Tyrion as well, and it would work if Aerys was his father, but only if he is younger then Viserys. Is he? Then Jon would be Rhaegar's third child, Dany Rhaella's third child and Tyrion Aerys' third child. A very loony idea, I admit. Tristane Martell is third child as well, I wonder if he has enough dragon blood to be the "head".

Linda Antonsson
User ID: 0651814 Aug 20th 3:54 PM
Hum,

I have no clue what Bran-as-Summer's vision/sighting could be, though I somehow doubt that it is related to what Dany saw. I am leaning towards her vision being of Dragonstone, and perhaps having something to do with Melisende.

Why? Well, two things in the wording of her vision itself, apart from the mention of a tower: the mention of a 'great stone beast' and 'shadow fire'.

And then there's another thing: The dreams that Shireen, Stannis' daughter, has of the stone dragons of Dragonstone coming to get her (p. 3-4, CoK, UK hardback). It is faintly possible that Shireen has something of the Targaryen gift for true-dreaming since there apparently was a Baratheon-Targaryen marriage some 100 years back (p. 258, CoK, UK hardback).

Could Melisende possibly defend Dragonstone by either animating one of the many stone figures (or one of the Towers, since they are shaped like dragons), though this seems rather unlikely, or at least making people think she had through some illusion?

Or are these visions and dreams just prophesizing the return of dragons to Dragonstone? Possible, as well, though the 'shadow fire' reference does make me curious. Unless it refers to the fact that dragons might possibly breathe black fire, like Balerion is said to have done(p. 102, GoT, US hardback).

Zelticgar
User ID: 9328513 Aug 22nd 8:27 AM
I nominate Wethers as rookie of the year. Great theory. I have to read through it before making a judgement but I have to respect the theory.

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Aug 22nd 11:39 PM
Hey Ran, don't mean to burst your bubble. I could be wrong, but I recall that it had been Haaruk who stated first that the Targaeryon bastard was in the Neck. Well, he atleast preached it them most. Also, Reed could be a bastard name in the Neck.

ab

Doc
User ID: 0770504 Aug 23rd 2:03 AM
I don't think so, Drijj ---

Unless there's a major house owing alliegance to the Starks that's made up entirely of bastards.

haaruk Aug 23rd 3:23 AM
I presented the Lyanna may have had twins theory on TGOT section on the Lyanna2 board months ago. The immediate reaction is that it was nutty. I'll repeat the gist of what I stated before on the Howland Reed and Promises boards in the Clash of Kings section. If Ashara Dayne did not commit suicide she faked it and accompanied Howland Reed and Ned Stark to Greywater Watch. They had two children with them. One was left at Greywater Watch with the crannogman because of features that resembled those of a hunted house. The other was taken to Winterfell. If they are siblings they are both Lyanna's. If not, then the one at Winterfell is Ned's true bastard. If that is the case the third head must be found somewhere else. I believe Meera and Jojen are the true children of Howland Reed and Ashara Dayne and they still protect and nurture a Targaryen on the Neck. I have said all this before and been ripped apart for it. If the theory is correct then the map and Dany's visions are the major clues.

haaruk Aug 23rd 6:00 AM
Excerpts from the Lyanna II board.

haaruk

I was willing to admit to lyanna being jon's mother with the cover as decisive evidence. If that is not the case then the branch of decision is still Robert and Eddard's conversation about Wylla.

haaruk
Apr 24th 4:04 PM
If Eddard is not Jon's Father (still a possibility), and Lyanna is Jon's mother (unproven) that does not eliminate a two child theory if Lyanna had twins.

haaruk
Apr 25th 5:42 AM

If Lyanna is Jon's mother then I believe she had twins. In either circumstance I think two children were born.

Rebecca
User ID: 7538493
Apr 25th 7:48 AM
haaruk, if Lyanna had twins, why would Ned take one home with him and leave the other somewhere else?

haaruk
Apr 25th 11:06 AM

Rebecca, there are two types of twins. Fraternal and identical. Eddard would take Jon because his physical characteristics resembled his and lyanna's. The fraternal twin would resemble
Rhaegar. In our world this is not unusual.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Wethers User ID: 2205324	Aug 19th 0:03 AM Hi all. I'm new - tremendous set of boards you have here. And here I thought I was so original to think of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. There's one minor detail I have never seen discussed. It's loony and it's not even really a theory, but bear with me. Was there _some_ beast or spirit hibernating beneath the walls of Winterfell's First Keep that was woken by Ramsay Snow's sacking at the end of aCoK? Wait, before you start laughing, keep reading. First go to one of Dany's visions in the chamber of the Undying (p. 530, US hardback): "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...". Ok, this by itself means little. Next go to the last chapter, where Bran, as Summer, experiences the following outside a burning Winterfell (p. 719): "...in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars." Well, it's clear that Summer knows what ordinary fire looks like, and he sees something specific on top of that which sounds an awful lot like a description of a dragon, or at least a powerful vision of one. Then again, the smoke and ash are in his eyes and the winged snake vanishes just as quickly as it appears. Ok now skip to a throw-away hint GRRM gives us later in the same chapter (p. 725): "We made noise enough *to wake a dragon*" Osha said, "but there's no one come. The castle's dead and burned, just as Bran dreamed..." (emphasis mine) Also, look up the page a bit at GRRM's description of the First Keep - it is in the worst shape of anything around it, and looks almost as if something broke _out_ of it, knocking over one of the walls in the process. Ok, I admit, this is most likely a ruse, or even completely unintentional - though I doubt that. Still, didn't GRRM indicate that it was possible that there were unhatched Dragon eggs about somewhere. If that, why not a hibernating dragon that only wakes when it is surrounded by cataclysmic fire and death (much like the hatching of Dany's eggs). At the very least, it makes you wonder just where those "hot springs" that heat Winterfell's walls come from ... =) out Wethers
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Aug 19th 0:44 AM Wow, That's a great Theory. You may be right. Can't wait til the next book to find out. For now though, I'll have to re-read your bookmarks. Good job, and welcome to our little family. ab
Padraig User ID: 0714654	Aug 19th 1:18 PM I did laugh at first. Now all I can say is Wow, Wow, Wow!
Mike User ID: 9990163	Aug 19th 1:58 PM I hope it is true, Wethers, because it would be very cool.
labor User ID: 8479113	Aug 19th 2:06 PM A really intereseting theory, Wethers! Does someone remember if the First Keep is described as a tower? I had an impression of a rather wide and bulky structure, but I don't remember it that well. BTW, was the comet still in the sky, during the Sack of Winterfell? If it was, Summer could have been thinking about it. IIRC Nan said that the comet smelled of dragons or some such...
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Aug 19th 4:32 PM The original keep was a tower. And it was broken. This is great Wethers, fantastic. I keep going back to the "...he bares his teeth" thing. Is it the dragon that bares his teeth, or is is Summer. I think it's Summer, and it makes me wonder what would make a Direwolf (that hasn't been see South of the Wall in 400 years) bare it's teeth? A smoke pillar? Fire? Humph!
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Aug 19th 4:42 PM Wethers, the mere fact that you concocted a brand new theory that none of us other obsessives had even dreamt of makes you a very welcome addition. But how about the "cliffs"? Are there cliffs around Winterfell? That almost sounds more like a description of Dragonstone. Granted, they're not at Dragonstone, but does the vision necessarily have to be of Winterfell?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Aug 19th 5:25 PM Well ... 'Cliffs' could be what Summer equates the stone walls and the like to. I don't know. I've got a niggling feeling that this is mundane, somehow. Mainly it's the fact that I don't see the purpose of it. Why an unheralded creature bursting from underneath Winterfell? We've already got three dragons, do we need another? That kind of thing. Well, for what it's worth, I'm leaning to Dragonstone on this .. but not ruling out Wethers' marvellous theory.
C arol User ID: 9405543	Aug 19th 5:51 PM I like it. We need a fresh pair of eyes and some original thinking. Let's look at what it might mean. I had the idea that when Dany's eggs hatched, there were three things needed to bring it about -- fire, death, and the presence of the "blood of the dragon," in that case, Dany herself, "the mother of dragons." But Jon was gone to the wall, so there was no Targaryen at Winterfell -- unless -- Meera?
Wethers User ID: 2205324	Aug 19th 11:15 PM Thanks for the comments folks ! Dirjj, Padraig, Mike: Woohoo - someone else likes my loony idea =) Labor: I hear you - my first thought was the comet as well, but that seems even less likely to vanish suddenly than a dragon, and it's certainly not the first time Summer has seen the comet. I do remember Nan saying something dragon-ish about the comet, however ... Claidhaim: You're right, what would cause Summer to bare his teeth at that particular moment when the fire had been burning for some time ? Jeff: Good point on the cliffs. I had assumed that was Summer's interpretation of castle walls, as Ran suggests later. Ran: Yup, it doesn't quite fit, does it ? Clearly, however, there was _something_ there, based on Summer's reaction. Could it be a "third eye" glimpse of the future, perhaps ? Carol: Thanks, and I _certainly_ did not think about Meera/"blood of the dragon". She would be about the right age to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child as well - i.e. about the same age as Jon, but fostered by Howland Reed. I'm not really sure if she looks like either a Stark or a Targaryen, however ... out Wethers
Ran User ID: 0283314	Aug 20th 5:19 AM I'll just note the looney theory that I believe I'm the first to have come up with, concerning Meera and the like. The idea basically runs that Lyanna had twins (so that we could get a reasonable 'the dragon has three heads' of Jon, Meera, and Dany.) Ned took the boy to Winterfell to raise as his own son and Howland Reed took the girl to raise as his own among the crannogmen (for safety.) Perhaps the crannogmen don't use bastard names -- so, Meera Reed rather than Meera Snow. In any case ... Meera is very short, no taller than Bran who's about 9 years old. She's also 16 (same age as Jon.) Her hair is brown (a Stark brown? No clue.) While we constantly hear about Jojen's weird, moss green eyes, we never once learn what color her eyes are. Also, Bran thinks to himself that the way she enjoys playing various games and the like reminds him of Arya. If one will remember, Ned makes a reference to the fact that Arya reminds him of Lyanna. So ... does she have Stark eyes and hair, and Targaryen facial features? Who knows. Certainly, the size is a big issue, but not perhaps as big an issue as I once thought -- others have pointed out that the diet of the crannogmen would not be very good even in the best of conditions, and young women are particularly hard-hit because of poor nutrition. In any case, it's a looney one. I don't quite know what to think anymore. I'll laugh if Meera is revealed a Targaryen. ;)
labor User ID: 8479113	Aug 20th 8:51 AM Well, I had a rather weird idea concerning "dragon has three heads". Both Dany and Jon (or whoever Lyanna's child was, if you wish) are third children of respective "dragons". Does it mean that the "third head" will have to be third child as well?
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Aug 20th 9:53 AM I've always thought that the third dragon rider would be either Bran or Tyrion. I suppose the third child thing would suggest Tyrion.
labor User ID: 8479113	Aug 20th 10:17 AM I thought about Tyrion as well, and it would work if Aerys was his father, but only if he is younger then Viserys. Is he? Then Jon would be Rhaegar's third child, Dany Rhaella's third child and Tyrion Aerys' third child. A very loony idea, I admit. Tristane Martell is third child as well, I wonder if he has enough dragon blood to be the "head".
Linda Antonsson User ID: 0651814	Aug 20th 3:54 PM Hum, I have no clue what Bran-as-Summer's vision/sighting could be, though I somehow doubt that it is related to what Dany saw. I am leaning towards her vision being of Dragonstone, and perhaps having something to do with Melisende. Why? Well, two things in the wording of her vision itself, apart from the mention of a tower: the mention of a 'great stone beast' and 'shadow fire'. And then there's another thing: The dreams that Shireen, Stannis' daughter, has of the stone dragons of Dragonstone coming to get her (p. 3-4, CoK, UK hardback). It is faintly possible that Shireen has something of the Targaryen gift for true-dreaming since there apparently was a Baratheon-Targaryen marriage some 100 years back (p. 258, CoK, UK hardback). Could Melisende possibly defend Dragonstone by either animating one of the many stone figures (or one of the Towers, since they are shaped like dragons), though this seems rather unlikely, or at least making people think she had through some illusion? Or are these visions and dreams just prophesizing the return of dragons to Dragonstone? Possible, as well, though the 'shadow fire' reference does make me curious. Unless it refers to the fact that dragons might possibly breathe black fire, like Balerion is said to have done(p. 102, GoT, US hardback).
Zelticgar User ID: 9328513	Aug 22nd 8:27 AM I nominate Wethers as rookie of the year. Great theory. I have to read through it before making a judgement but I have to respect the theory.
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Aug 22nd 11:39 PM Hey Ran, don't mean to burst your bubble. I could be wrong, but I recall that it had been Haaruk who stated first that the Targaeryon bastard was in the Neck. Well, he atleast preached it them most. Also, Reed could be a bastard name in the Neck. ab
Doc User ID: 0770504	Aug 23rd 2:03 AM I don't think so, Drijj --- Unless there's a major house owing alliegance to the Starks that's made up entirely of bastards.
haaruk	Aug 23rd 3:23 AM I presented the Lyanna may have had twins theory on TGOT section on the Lyanna2 board months ago. The immediate reaction is that it was nutty. I'll repeat the gist of what I stated before on the Howland Reed and Promises boards in the Clash of Kings section. If Ashara Dayne did not commit suicide she faked it and accompanied Howland Reed and Ned Stark to Greywater Watch. They had two children with them. One was left at Greywater Watch with the crannogman because of features that resembled those of a hunted house. The other was taken to Winterfell. If they are siblings they are both Lyanna's. If not, then the one at Winterfell is Ned's true bastard. If that is the case the third head must be found somewhere else. I believe Meera and Jojen are the true children of Howland Reed and Ashara Dayne and they still protect and nurture a Targaryen on the Neck. I have said all this before and been ripped apart for it. If the theory is correct then the map and Dany's visions are the major clues.
haaruk	Aug 23rd 6:00 AM Excerpts from the Lyanna II board. haaruk I was willing to admit to lyanna being jon's mother with the cover as decisive evidence. If that is not the case then the branch of decision is still Robert and Eddard's conversation about Wylla. haaruk Apr 24th 4:04 PM If Eddard is not Jon's Father (still a possibility), and Lyanna is Jon's mother (unproven) that does not eliminate a two child theory if Lyanna had twins. haaruk Apr 25th 5:42 AM If Lyanna is Jon's mother then I believe she had twins. In either circumstance I think two children were born. Rebecca User ID: 7538493 Apr 25th 7:48 AM haaruk, if Lyanna had twins, why would Ned take one home with him and leave the other somewhere else? haaruk Apr 25th 11:06 AM Rebecca, there are two types of twins. Fraternal and identical. Eddard would take Jon because his physical characteristics resembled his and lyanna's. The fraternal twin would resemble Rhaegar. In our world this is not unusual.