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A Song of Ice and Fire/The Hedge Knight / Background

Next 20 Messages

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Mar 24th 2:17 PM
One of the things about THK that makes me go back and read it again and again is the background for the entire world GRRM has created. Not only the Kingdoms, Lords, Places, but the feelings and laws that hold them together.

After reading THK, a lot of what happens in A Song of Ice and Fire really becomes more important. What do hedge Knights really think? What drives men like this? How are they treated by the Lords of the realm?

The story is great on it's own, but used as background for the ASOIAF series, it really was worth the $$.

Kay-Arne Hansen
User ID: 9209903 Mar 24th 2:25 PM
Seems to me that hedge knights are not that well received in Westeros...it depends on the lord you're asking, I guess.
These wandering knights owns no land, and sounds like 'noble sellswords' to me.

Not unprobable that some of these turn into 'robber knights' in hard times as well.

Arion
User ID: 9844073 Apr 22nd 12:56 PM
THK was a total surprise to me. What a great story -- touching, exciting, and informative. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed it and urge anyone who hasn't read it to beg or borrow a copy and remedy their oversite immediately.
The whole story resonates into the SoI&F series in many unknown ways and without it, you don't really understand the Targaryens and what led to their power and downfall. It is a story that can be read again and again and something new will be gleaned each time. Bravo! Mr. Martin.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Apr 22nd 1:55 PM
It was definitely the best of the short stories in Legends.

Actually, there was one occasion that I felt was...not cheesy, exactly, but a little over the top.
You know, when Dunk is trying to find his seventh
fighter, and nobody is willing to do so, and Dunk shouts: "Is there no true knights among you?"

I don't know, it just got a bit _too_ melodramatic for me, I guess. I think the scene would have worked better if he had just spoken regularly, or some such.

Oh, here I go, nitpicking again...

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Apr 22nd 2:00 PM
Peck, peck peck peck. Oh, sorry.... wrong movie.

I agree Kay-Arne, that was a bit 'over' for the story, yet as a short, I liked the way it worked. A Targaryen siding Dunk and then dying. It was good that there was some tragedy in the story and a somewhat bittersweet ending. Something had to happen be it good or bad for Dunk. Fortunately, both did.

Jeff
User ID: 8506593 May 10th 9:58 AM
What about the idea in THK that hedge knights are the only "true" knights? Seems like that concept dovetails quite nicely with some of scenes in ASOIAF -- the conduct of the "knight" Ser Gregor, Jaime Lannister's little speech about the conflicting vows taken by a knight, and the Hound's own view of knighthood.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 May 10th 10:21 AM
Power corrupts...

Emily
User ID: 7789183 May 11th 12:57 PM
OK, Kay-Arne, maybe Dunk's cry was a bit melodramatic - but it was quite in character for a man who a) was rather thick, b) believed in quaint notions like honour and knighthood, and c) was going to have a hand and foot chopped off unless someone came to his aid pretty quick.

Kay-Arne Hansen
User ID: 9209903 May 11th 2:09 PM
All valid arguments, Emily.

I guess I myself would be pretty vocal, should anyone propose to cut of my extremities. :)

Justus
User ID: 9308123 Jul 14th 4:47 PM
What I really love about THK is the way the history of the Targaryens is laid out for you. This very event is mentioned in Clash of Kings, and Martin's ability to pull the reader in helps add flavor to Ice and Fire. Really, without this short story to go on, the reader is left only with stories of the Mad King and Daenerys as examples of the family. THK shows that some of the Targaryens were truly noble, great men. What would the Seven Kingdoms have been like, I wonder, if Baelor Breakspear had lived to be king?

labor Jul 15th 6:05 PM

Justus, although Baelor Breakspear is certainly a very appealing figure, a great fighter and a noble man doesn't necessarily make a good ruler. IIRC his brother Aerys I and his nephew Aegon V the Unlikely did a good job of ruling. Maekar I might have had some problems, but we didn't hear anything about it yet. Also, Baelor Breakspear was King's Hand at the time of his death, so we have a fair idea what his rule would have been like - i.e. more or less the same as situation in THK.

Justus
User ID: 9308123 Jul 19th 11:49 AM
labor,

True, it takes more than just those qualities listed above to make a good ruler. And I agree, his role as Hand of the King gives one a sense of what his rulership would be like, but in light of what we learn about him through other characters, he is not only honorable and just, he is also level-headed, confident, and willing to listen to others (unlike his younger brother). That's the mark of a good king, in my view.

As for Aegon V the Unlikely, Egg is an interesting character. I'd be interested to see how traveling with Dunk influenced his later rule.

Doc
User ID: 0770504 Aug 8th 6:19 PM
I must admit I have not read this short story yet.
I came here to see what was being discussed, and I'm now very interested to read it.

However, I believe I can still comment on the point about "a good king" . . . The problem with kingship is that . . . the crown does funny things to the head beneath it. Robert, for example. True, he was always rather . . . lively when it came to his sex life. But he had always been a generally fair, simple man, bound by duty and honor almost as much as Eddard Stark, or as much so, even.

But the power changed him. He became progressively more childish and greedy, and fed all his desires rather than restrain himself in the least. Perhaps the only time he DID restrain himself was to not outright kill Cersei, and that, actually, is rather a pity. She may be beautiful, but I think she'd look prettier with her head on a spike.

Emily
User ID: 9265663 Aug 10th 8:27 AM
Doc, you've GOT to read The Hedge Knight! Get Legends out of the library or something (don't waste any money on it because most of the other stories are rubbish).

You're so right about crowns - power corrupting applies to every kind of dictatorship, but with kings you have the added insanity of 'divine right'. Multi-party democracy is the only answer. If Bangladesh can retain its democracy even when it's two-thirds underwater, democracy shouldn't be out of the question for the Seven Kingdoms. At least until the Long Winter...

Kay-Arne Hansen
User ID: 9209903 Aug 10th 10:29 AM
Emily;

You can't be serious!!!

Most of the stories in Legends rubbish? Why, there's notables like _Jordan_ and _Goodkind_ and _Silverberg_ and _Feist_ and...um, well, perhaps a few of them are a bit, ah, under pari (OK, they're rubbish :P), but the stories of Williams, Pratchett and Card were all very good.

Maybe still not worth doling out a lot of money for, but you're discouraging Doc from reading some pretty nifty stories, IMHO.

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Aug 17th 1:18 PM
I agree that there are LOTS of good stories in Legends. It's the sci-fi sequel, Far Horizons, that sucks. For my review on the book:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/1105/hpmonographs.html

labor
User ID: 8785553 Aug 29th 6:16 AM

Back to the "Hedge Knight" - as Dunk won the Trial of Seven and made Aerion yield, shouldn't he have gotten Aerion's horse and armour? Of course, he wouldn't be quite so poor then and thus not such a good mentor for Egg, but it still looks like a caveout.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Aug 29th 7:43 AM
I don't believe there's any statement which says the Trial of Seven has the tourney rules of giving arms and armor of losers to victors.

It's a judicial trial with religious overtones, not a tourney contest.

Kurto Sep 9th 0:52 AM
Legends is the way I discovered Martin and his books. I am not a fantasy reader, except for King's Dark Tower, and would have never been exposed to Martin's world. Bravo for short collections.

Emily
User ID: 9537533 Sep 10th 6:29 AM
Kurto (and KAH), you've made me feel that Legends isn't such a waste of space after all. But didn't it get on your nerves that they gave away the entire plot of AGOT in the Hedge Knight introduction? Not the most sensible thing to do when people are discovering that author for the first time.

Next 20 Messages

Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Mar 24th 2:17 PM One of the things about THK that makes me go back and read it again and again is the background for the entire world GRRM has created. Not only the Kingdoms, Lords, Places, but the feelings and laws that hold them together. After reading THK, a lot of what happens in A Song of Ice and Fire really becomes more important. What do hedge Knights really think? What drives men like this? How are they treated by the Lords of the realm? The story is great on it's own, but used as background for the ASOIAF series, it really was worth the $$.
Kay-Arne Hansen User ID: 9209903	Mar 24th 2:25 PM Seems to me that hedge knights are not that well received in Westeros...it depends on the lord you're asking, I guess. These wandering knights owns no land, and sounds like 'noble sellswords' to me. Not unprobable that some of these turn into 'robber knights' in hard times as well.
Arion User ID: 9844073	Apr 22nd 12:56 PM THK was a total surprise to me. What a great story -- touching, exciting, and informative. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed it and urge anyone who hasn't read it to beg or borrow a copy and remedy their oversite immediately. The whole story resonates into the SoI&F series in many unknown ways and without it, you don't really understand the Targaryens and what led to their power and downfall. It is a story that can be read again and again and something new will be gleaned each time. Bravo! Mr. Martin.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Apr 22nd 1:55 PM It was definitely the best of the short stories in Legends. Actually, there was one occasion that I felt was...not cheesy, exactly, but a little over the top. You know, when Dunk is trying to find his seventh fighter, and nobody is willing to do so, and Dunk shouts: "Is there no true knights among you?" I don't know, it just got a bit _too_ melodramatic for me, I guess. I think the scene would have worked better if he had just spoken regularly, or some such. Oh, here I go, nitpicking again...
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Apr 22nd 2:00 PM Peck, peck peck peck. Oh, sorry.... wrong movie. I agree Kay-Arne, that was a bit 'over' for the story, yet as a short, I liked the way it worked. A Targaryen siding Dunk and then dying. It was good that there was some tragedy in the story and a somewhat bittersweet ending. Something had to happen be it good or bad for Dunk. Fortunately, both did.
Jeff User ID: 8506593	May 10th 9:58 AM What about the idea in THK that hedge knights are the only "true" knights? Seems like that concept dovetails quite nicely with some of scenes in ASOIAF -- the conduct of the "knight" Ser Gregor, Jaime Lannister's little speech about the conflicting vows taken by a knight, and the Hound's own view of knighthood.
KAH User ID: 9209903	May 10th 10:21 AM Power corrupts...
Emily User ID: 7789183	May 11th 12:57 PM OK, Kay-Arne, maybe Dunk's cry was a bit melodramatic - but it was quite in character for a man who a) was rather thick, b) believed in quaint notions like honour and knighthood, and c) was going to have a hand and foot chopped off unless someone came to his aid pretty quick.
Kay-Arne Hansen User ID: 9209903	May 11th 2:09 PM All valid arguments, Emily. I guess I myself would be pretty vocal, should anyone propose to cut of my extremities. :)
Justus User ID: 9308123	Jul 14th 4:47 PM What I really love about THK is the way the history of the Targaryens is laid out for you. This very event is mentioned in Clash of Kings, and Martin's ability to pull the reader in helps add flavor to Ice and Fire. Really, without this short story to go on, the reader is left only with stories of the Mad King and Daenerys as examples of the family. THK shows that some of the Targaryens were truly noble, great men. What would the Seven Kingdoms have been like, I wonder, if Baelor Breakspear had lived to be king?
labor	Jul 15th 6:05 PM Justus, although Baelor Breakspear is certainly a very appealing figure, a great fighter and a noble man doesn't necessarily make a good ruler. IIRC his brother Aerys I and his nephew Aegon V the Unlikely did a good job of ruling. Maekar I might have had some problems, but we didn't hear anything about it yet. Also, Baelor Breakspear was King's Hand at the time of his death, so we have a fair idea what his rule would have been like - i.e. more or less the same as situation in THK.
Justus User ID: 9308123	Jul 19th 11:49 AM labor, True, it takes more than just those qualities listed above to make a good ruler. And I agree, his role as Hand of the King gives one a sense of what his rulership would be like, but in light of what we learn about him through other characters, he is not only honorable and just, he is also level-headed, confident, and willing to listen to others (unlike his younger brother). That's the mark of a good king, in my view. As for Aegon V the Unlikely, Egg is an interesting character. I'd be interested to see how traveling with Dunk influenced his later rule.
Doc User ID: 0770504	Aug 8th 6:19 PM I must admit I have not read this short story yet. I came here to see what was being discussed, and I'm now very interested to read it. However, I believe I can still comment on the point about "a good king" . . . The problem with kingship is that . . . the crown does funny things to the head beneath it. Robert, for example. True, he was always rather . . . lively when it came to his sex life. But he had always been a generally fair, simple man, bound by duty and honor almost as much as Eddard Stark, or as much so, even. But the power changed him. He became progressively more childish and greedy, and fed all his desires rather than restrain himself in the least. Perhaps the only time he DID restrain himself was to not outright kill Cersei, and that, actually, is rather a pity. She may be beautiful, but I think she'd look prettier with her head on a spike.
Emily User ID: 9265663	Aug 10th 8:27 AM Doc, you've GOT to read The Hedge Knight! Get Legends out of the library or something (don't waste any money on it because most of the other stories are rubbish). You're so right about crowns - power corrupting applies to every kind of dictatorship, but with kings you have the added insanity of 'divine right'. Multi-party democracy is the only answer. If Bangladesh can retain its democracy even when it's two-thirds underwater, democracy shouldn't be out of the question for the Seven Kingdoms. At least until the Long Winter...
Kay-Arne Hansen User ID: 9209903	Aug 10th 10:29 AM Emily; You can't be serious!!! Most of the stories in Legends rubbish? Why, there's notables like _Jordan_ and _Goodkind_ and _Silverberg_ and _Feist_ and...um, well, perhaps a few of them are a bit, ah, under pari (OK, they're rubbish :P), but the stories of Williams, Pratchett and Card were all very good. Maybe still not worth doling out a lot of money for, but you're discouraging Doc from reading some pretty nifty stories, IMHO.
Omer User ID: 0485244	Aug 17th 1:18 PM I agree that there are LOTS of good stories in Legends. It's the sci-fi sequel, Far Horizons, that sucks. For my review on the book: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/1105/hpmonographs.html
labor User ID: 8785553	Aug 29th 6:16 AM Back to the "Hedge Knight" - as Dunk won the Trial of Seven and made Aerion yield, shouldn't he have gotten Aerion's horse and armour? Of course, he wouldn't be quite so poor then and thus not such a good mentor for Egg, but it still looks like a caveout.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Aug 29th 7:43 AM I don't believe there's any statement which says the Trial of Seven has the tourney rules of giving arms and armor of losers to victors. It's a judicial trial with religious overtones, not a tourney contest.
Kurto	Sep 9th 0:52 AM Legends is the way I discovered Martin and his books. I am not a fantasy reader, except for King's Dark Tower, and would have never been exposed to Martin's world. Bravo for short collections.
Emily User ID: 9537533	Sep 10th 6:29 AM Kurto (and KAH), you've made me feel that Legends isn't such a waste of space after all. But didn't it get on your nerves that they gave away the entire plot of AGOT in the Hedge Knight introduction? Not the most sensible thing to do when people are discovering that author for the first time.