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A Song of Ice and Fire/ The Hedge Knight / Is Dunk really a Knight?

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Dec 17th 3:44 AM
Did you notice that we never saw the scene dunk tells about the Old man making him a knight? am I the only one who thinks he's lying?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 17th 5:22 AM
Oh, we have speculated a bit back and forth on this one, but it's hard to say either way.
His thinking about a 'monstrous lie' wrt Egg, could certainly imply something...

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Dec 17th 9:46 AM
I've ne'er seen a ward about it b4:

a 'monstrous lie' wrt Egg
what's that?

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Dec 17th 10:57 AM
I don't think Dunk is a knight. He woke up one morning and Ser Arlen of Pennytree was dead. Dunk lied to get into the tourney.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 17th 3:00 PM
Omer;

He reflects on it, when Egg visits him in the cell, IIRC (this is after Dunk gave Aerion his what-for).

A possible interpretation being that Dunk wanted knighthood so much, that he'd lie about it.
After all, with his old master dead, no one else would think of knighting Dunk, of Flea Bottom.

Emily
User ID: 2192024 Feb 4th 10:29 AM
WHAT!!!?

How DARE you accuse Dunk of lying!!!!!! a) He's the soul of chivalry, and b) he's too thick to think up a good lie, let alone stick to it.

I'm off to reread The Hedge Knight.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Feb 7th 3:05 PM
Well, its ne'er mentioned as a fact. Also, Dunk considered being someone else's squire.

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 May 31st 4:42 PM
I think that Dunk did not lie about having been knighted, but it is not really an issue.

Baelor recognized him as a knight. He fought with the other knights in the tourney, as well as with Green Apple Fossoway who was knighted at the time. He also has taken the future king of the realm as his squire. I don't think there is any going back. Even if he wasn't knighted, he is know due to association and assumption.

That one guy
User ID: 0610144 May 31st 7:42 PM
I think its made pretty clear that dunk is NOT a knight. For one, remember his reluctance to knight Raymun Fossoway? Im pretty sure thats cause hes not a knight and doesnt want to 'taint' Raymun. For another at the start of the story he is wondering what he can do with himself. The first thing he considers is squiring for another hedge knight. If HE was already a knight why would he have to do that? Thirdly, the circumstances of Ser Arlans death as we know them make it seem like he died suddenly, not having enough advance warning to knight dunk. Also Dunk's mood through the entire story leads me to believe that hes making the whole thing up.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 31st 7:50 PM
His reluctance could also be from the fact that he doesn't trust himself to do it right, and in any case isn't sure if he wants to risk his new friend's life on his own behalf.

No doubt he was also aware that the chances of him convincing anyone, in usual circumstances, that he was a knight were slim. Hence, squiring to another knight might be easiest. But at a tournament, he might have had hope to be able to get accepted more easily.

Finally, the circumstances of Arlan's death ... I don't know. I can very well see a man realizing that he was going to die from what Dunk described. It was a quick fever, rather than a sudden dead-in-your-sleep thing.

Mind, I expect it's true that Dunk lied, but as with MAD-ness, I don't think it really matters. He earned his knighthood.

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 Jun 7th 9:23 AM
The only proof I see is either a slip-up by GRRM or direct misleading, on page 152, when thinking about how Arlan used to bathe himself, GRRM writes "Now that he was a knight, he would do the same." Now this isn't Dunk thinking to himself or talking out loud, it is GRRM writing it...but even GRRM could say he put that in because that is what Dunk decided he would be now, even if deep down he knew he wasn't...but I agree, he earned it even if he wasn't...has anyone asked GRRM indirectly about him being or not being a Knight technically, knighted by Arlan?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 7th 9:32 AM
The only question(s) I've seen were direct, and GRRM pretty much refused to answer (replying to one person, I believe, 'What do you think?')

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jun 7th 3:01 PM
Someone should ask a devious question something like 'what if someone pretends to be a knight, and is later revealed not to be a knight'?

though I'm pretty sure G.R.R.M's way too clever and will see through this. Still, any volanteers?

hmmm, I would say that, at the end, it doesn't matter, because NO ONE CAN EVER KNOW. I mean, I can see Dunk confessing the truth to Egg at some point or another, but I don't see it becoming any more serious than that.

Bernie M.
User ID: 1689844 Jul 30th 1:22 AM
I'm pretty sure that Dunk is really a knight. Ser Arlen didn't suddenly keel over in his sleep one night. He came down with something, and his health steadily deteriorated over a few days before his death. He saw his end coming and knighted Dunk, just as Dunk told it.

Dunk's reluctance to knight Raymun Fossoway likely stems from the reasons Fossoway wanted to be knighted. Remember that Fossoway wanted to participate in what amounts to a fight to the death against the Kingsguard. Knighting Raymun would be equivalent to asking a thirteen year old to help you and your buddy fight Evander Holyfield, George Foreman, and Mike Tyson.

As for his desire to squire for someone, that was just his insecurity. He realizes that his skill at arms leaves something to be desired. Ser Arlen knighted him because he saw his end approaching, not because he felt Dunk was skilled enough for the title. Had Ser Arlen lived longer, he would have completed Dunk's training. Since that obviously wasn't going to happen, he had to provide for Dunk's future. His chances of making a living as a hedge knight were much greater than his chances of making a living as the ex-squire of a deceased hedge knight. Of course Dunk wishes he could squire for someone else. He was thrust into his position without the proper qualifications. That doesn't negate the fact that he *was* thrust into the position, however.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Aug 7th 1:11 PM
It seems to me the words spoken during the knighting ceremony should count for something. When Raymun was knighted on the field, he was given a long dissertation about duty and honor and the like, complete with should taps with the sword. There were also several witnesses on-hand, something that was by his own admission absent during Dunk's ascension. Did Dunk lie about what took place? I tend to think not. By the same token, though, my guess is that his "ceremony" was nowhere near as involved as Raymun's - and Raymun's probably was nowhere near as involved as it should have been. Then the question would have to be: Are there minimum requirements in terms of what should be stated and who must witness the proceedings?

Omer User ID: 0485244	Dec 17th 3:44 AM Did you notice that we never saw the scene dunk tells about the Old man making him a knight? am I the only one who thinks he's lying?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 17th 5:22 AM Oh, we have speculated a bit back and forth on this one, but it's hard to say either way. His thinking about a 'monstrous lie' wrt Egg, could certainly imply something...
Omer User ID: 0485244	Dec 17th 9:46 AM I've ne'er seen a ward about it b4: a 'monstrous lie' wrt Egg what's that?
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Dec 17th 10:57 AM I don't think Dunk is a knight. He woke up one morning and Ser Arlen of Pennytree was dead. Dunk lied to get into the tourney.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 17th 3:00 PM Omer; He reflects on it, when Egg visits him in the cell, IIRC (this is after Dunk gave Aerion his what-for). A possible interpretation being that Dunk wanted knighthood so much, that he'd lie about it. After all, with his old master dead, no one else would think of knighting Dunk, of Flea Bottom.
Emily User ID: 2192024	Feb 4th 10:29 AM WHAT!!!? How DARE you accuse Dunk of lying!!!!!! a) He's the soul of chivalry, and b) he's too thick to think up a good lie, let alone stick to it. I'm off to reread The Hedge Knight.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Feb 7th 3:05 PM Well, its ne'er mentioned as a fact. Also, Dunk considered being someone else's squire.
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	May 31st 4:42 PM I think that Dunk did not lie about having been knighted, but it is not really an issue. Baelor recognized him as a knight. He fought with the other knights in the tourney, as well as with Green Apple Fossoway who was knighted at the time. He also has taken the future king of the realm as his squire. I don't think there is any going back. Even if he wasn't knighted, he is know due to association and assumption.
That one guy User ID: 0610144	May 31st 7:42 PM I think its made pretty clear that dunk is NOT a knight. For one, remember his reluctance to knight Raymun Fossoway? Im pretty sure thats cause hes not a knight and doesnt want to 'taint' Raymun. For another at the start of the story he is wondering what he can do with himself. The first thing he considers is squiring for another hedge knight. If HE was already a knight why would he have to do that? Thirdly, the circumstances of Ser Arlans death as we know them make it seem like he died suddenly, not having enough advance warning to knight dunk. Also Dunk's mood through the entire story leads me to believe that hes making the whole thing up.
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 31st 7:50 PM His reluctance could also be from the fact that he doesn't trust himself to do it right, and in any case isn't sure if he wants to risk his new friend's life on his own behalf. No doubt he was also aware that the chances of him convincing anyone, in usual circumstances, that he was a knight were slim. Hence, squiring to another knight might be easiest. But at a tournament, he might have had hope to be able to get accepted more easily. Finally, the circumstances of Arlan's death ... I don't know. I can very well see a man realizing that he was going to die from what Dunk described. It was a quick fever, rather than a sudden dead-in-your-sleep thing. Mind, I expect it's true that Dunk lied, but as with MAD-ness, I don't think it really matters. He earned his knighthood.
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	Jun 7th 9:23 AM The only proof I see is either a slip-up by GRRM or direct misleading, on page 152, when thinking about how Arlan used to bathe himself, GRRM writes "Now that he was a knight, he would do the same." Now this isn't Dunk thinking to himself or talking out loud, it is GRRM writing it...but even GRRM could say he put that in because that is what Dunk decided he would be now, even if deep down he knew he wasn't...but I agree, he earned it even if he wasn't...has anyone asked GRRM indirectly about him being or not being a Knight technically, knighted by Arlan?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 7th 9:32 AM The only question(s) I've seen were direct, and GRRM pretty much refused to answer (replying to one person, I believe, 'What do you think?')
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jun 7th 3:01 PM Someone should ask a devious question something like 'what if someone pretends to be a knight, and is later revealed not to be a knight'? though I'm pretty sure G.R.R.M's way too clever and will see through this. Still, any volanteers? hmmm, I would say that, at the end, it doesn't matter, because NO ONE CAN EVER KNOW. I mean, I can see Dunk confessing the truth to Egg at some point or another, but I don't see it becoming any more serious than that.
Bernie M. User ID: 1689844	Jul 30th 1:22 AM I'm pretty sure that Dunk is really a knight. Ser Arlen didn't suddenly keel over in his sleep one night. He came down with something, and his health steadily deteriorated over a few days before his death. He saw his end coming and knighted Dunk, just as Dunk told it. Dunk's reluctance to knight Raymun Fossoway likely stems from the reasons Fossoway wanted to be knighted. Remember that Fossoway wanted to participate in what amounts to a fight to the death against the Kingsguard. Knighting Raymun would be equivalent to asking a thirteen year old to help you and your buddy fight Evander Holyfield, George Foreman, and Mike Tyson. As for his desire to squire for someone, that was just his insecurity. He realizes that his skill at arms leaves something to be desired. Ser Arlen knighted him because he saw his end approaching, not because he felt Dunk was skilled enough for the title. Had Ser Arlen lived longer, he would have completed Dunk's training. Since that obviously wasn't going to happen, he had to provide for Dunk's future. His chances of making a living as a hedge knight were much greater than his chances of making a living as the ex-squire of a deceased hedge knight. Of course Dunk wishes he could squire for someone else. He was thrust into his position without the proper qualifications. That doesn't negate the fact that he was thrust into the position, however.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Aug 7th 1:11 PM It seems to me the words spoken during the knighting ceremony should count for something. When Raymun was knighted on the field, he was given a long dissertation about duty and honor and the like, complete with should taps with the sword. There were also several witnesses on-hand, something that was by his own admission absent during Dunk's ascension. Did Dunk lie about what took place? I tend to think not. By the same token, though, my guess is that his "ceremony" was nowhere near as involved as Raymun's - and Raymun's probably was nowhere near as involved as it should have been. Then the question would have to be: Are there minimum requirements in terms of what should be stated and who must witness the proceedings?