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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Wheel Of Time Syndrom??

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V
User ID: 9433023 May 5th 10:47 AM
Hi everyone..

I occasionally check out this forum, but I haven't written anything here, so here's my first addition to this forum

I just wanted to ask you guys how you feel about the Storm of Swords coming out by summer 2000??

I think that's definetly, disgusting,catastrophically late, well you get the picture...
I was hoping that A song of Ice and Fire wouldn't get the "Wheel of Time" syndrom, with 1.5-2 years between the books, as it's such a great series.
Robert Jordan had atleast only (...) 1 year between the first of his books, so you wouldn't lose track of the books in the beginning.

To put it simple, A Song of Ice and Fire will have a hard time getting through to the "mainstream readers", if it will take a decenium or more to finnish the series.

That was my first addition to this forum, =)

Jeff
User ID: 8506593 May 5th 11:00 AM
Velcome aboard, V! Though I wish ASOS would come out sooner, I'm willing to accept that pace due to the high quality of the two books he already has written. I'm still rather amazed at how he manages to keep the various convoluted plot threads all moving along in harmony -- its got to be quite a challenge. But if Arya ever decides to start tugging on her braid, I'm going elsewhere.

V
User ID: 9433023 May 5th 11:17 AM
Well, I agree with you that th first two books are REALLY good, but I have grown tired waiting for Jordans books to come out, and I don't know if I can take it one more time with a new series, even if it's better.

Oh well, I will just have to try to survive long enough to read all the books in the series, =)

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 5th 11:38 AM
I think expecting any author to churn out books at 6 month intervals (or even one year) is not looking at things realistically.

I believe Jordan's 1 year interval at the start had special circumstances -- the pace he has now is what _most_ authors can manage.

The only author I know of who has gone at one year intervals in a current series (I don't read everyone, so there may be more) is Kate Elliot -- and I've just read that the fourth (and _maybe_ concluding, she may have to go for a fifth) is _not_ going one year.

The year and a half wait for Mr. Martin's third book is well worth it. We're talking 700-800 pages (consider: average author can hope to do 6 pages a day, not counting later revision, etc. -- that's a third of a year gone at the least), having to go to the editors, triple-checked, found a slot in the printing schedule (this is part of the reason CoK came out in the U.S. a couple of months after it was out in Europe), etc., etc.

Everyone could wish they came out sooner. I'd love to see high quality epics written at a pace of a book a month, just so I could enjoy them all the sooner. But that's wishful thinking. A year and a half between books is an extremely reasonable pace. One is nice, but it's rare in a series as multi-layered as Martin's.

I could even stand for two years between books -- I wouldn't _like_ it, but I could stand for it.

As to "mainstream readers," I don't know what that is. The second book has already hit the bestsellers, and I expect SoS to top it if all goes well. So far the fantasy genre shows us that successful book series tend to get better and better sales as they go on.

Just as a factoid to keep sales in perspective, from Bookwire (www.bookwire.com):

Jordan's fourth book, The Shadow Rising, was on the bestseller list for 5 weeks and peaked at 10.

Martin's second book, Clash of Kings, was on the bestseller list for four weeks and peaked at 12.

These are pretty much the same, although I do wish I could find the figures for The Dragon Reborn. From what I can tell, Jordan's third book, however quickly following the first and second, did _not_ make the bestseller list.

I'm not quite sure what this says of the market for fantasy, but a possibly erroneous conclusion (not necessarily so, however) is that Martin has found more immediate success than Jordan did.

I suspect we'll see Storm of Swords surpass CoK and The Shadow Rising (and the Fires of Heaven which performed just as TSR.) The real question is whether A Dance with Dragons will match LoC (which stayed only 5 weeks on the list, but hit #4)

As a disclaimer: I'm just using the comparison to the Jordan sales as one that seems obvious in being two large series which have found bestseller-level popularity. I don't think there's any real resemblance between the two beyond that and that they're both written in English. ;)

Finally, V, welcome to the board. :)

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 5th 11:45 AM
Also, V:

Isn't your problem with waiting on Jordan's books (something which has soured me -- I buy them now only to see the end of that infernal series) more because of the fact that he has no apparent end yet in sight? I believe the last four books have been heralded by him as "probably only three more books left, maybe."

KAH
User ID: 9209903 May 5th 12:21 PM
This is not directed at V, but...

Peeve: People who complain about the long wait between books in a great series, because 'they will have forgotten about what happened so far, who the characters were (etc.), when they finally get the new book'

If a series is really good, what is so difficult about re-reading the books you already have, in order to be up to date when you start reading the new book?

(I might understand it in regard to the WoT-series - going through close to ten books is a job in itself - but there should be no such problems with aSoIaF)

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 May 5th 12:32 PM
As far as waiting for books, two years is very tolerable. I've been waiting for Brust's sequels to "Phoenix Guard" and "Five Hundred Years After" for what seems like five hundred years. I think it's more like four and I don't think he's even started writing them!!

Duke Dirjj
User ID: 9990163 May 5th 2:33 PM
You know, I would just love it if Martin, or someone close to him would come out with a book similar to Jordan's "World of the Wheel of Time" for Martin's series. That would be the best. Or even a Bestiary like Tolkien. I've got all the Tolkien stuff, Bestiary, Atlas's, you name it, I probably have it.

ab

V
User ID: 9433023 May 5th 2:45 PM
Woha, what a nice board with fast replies, not too common =).

I agree with all of you that Martin is doing well with his pace, about the same as all authors. I wasn't as some of you may think, attacking Martin for it. I was just saying that I wouldn't _mind_ a faster pace... *ducks for all the replies on that sentence*.

As for mainstream readers... here in cold, arctic, above the polar circle, Sweden, =P. Fantasy books doesn't sell well. And I wouldn't look at ratings on amazon.com, as I, personally think, that not many 65 year olds buy their books from the net, instead they buy their books in normal bookstores. So, atleast in Sweden, Fantasy books are not among the first 200 best selling books, probably much lower.
But then again, that may be totally different in the States, or?

V, who constantly dodges all the replies he got from his first post
=)

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 5th 2:56 PM
Actually, V, Bookwire lists the actual U.S. national sales. Martin's book peaked at number 12 nation-wide (and, actually, did quite well on Amazon.com as you suggest.)

As to Sweden, being an American in Goteborg, I quite understand. Frustrating to not see CoK in the local bookstores while Feist, Goodkind, Jordan. etc. rush in (although they do have the British edition of the GoT paperback which is rather nice even if the background is extremely fantasyish and not-King's Landing-like.)

I'm still waiting on my American hardcover of CoK as it was only just now sent by forgetful relatives (feh -- along with a couple of Brust books and some other odds and ends.)

KAH
User ID: 9209903 May 5th 2:56 PM
Above the polar circle? How far north do you live (degrees-wise)?

V
User ID: 9433023 May 5th 3:03 PM
Well, actually I live in Stockholm, I was just making fun of some Americans I know who actually thinks it snows in Stockholm 'till about the middle of May, =)

V
User ID: 9433023 May 5th 3:08 PM
To continue the discussion at least a bit...

So Fantasy Books actually sell well in the States? That's really cool, as almost no one in Sweden even knows what it is...

Ran, try "Science Fiction och Fantasy Bokhandeln" in "Gamla Stan" if you ever go to Stockholm. They usually get the books about a week after the release in the States.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 5th 3:11 PM
Been there, liked it. :) I would have ordered from them, but I had already ordered CoK from Amazon.com _just_ before I moved from the U.S. to here -- I had hoped that it'd arrive the day before my flight. But, alas. ;)

So, had to depend on relatives (grumble) to get it to me.

[Aside: Never fear, those awaiting the complete concordance -- decided to press on with the U.K. edition of CoK. Maybe that'll be done before the month is out, if work goes well.]

KAH
User ID: 9209903 May 6th 4:35 AM
Darn! For a moment I thought I had a companion in misery, up here above the polar circle. (Even if it does not always snow until middle of May, it's a close thing sometimes. :)

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 May 7th 8:09 AM
V, I've never had a major problem waiting for sequels, provided they were of similar or better quality than their predecessor books. My biggest problem is with authors who rush books out to make money ASAP without considering the real needs of their readership (which relate to quality).

Knowing what I now know about GRRM, quality is of the utmost importance to him. He even said (and this is certainly not a direct quote) the reason he expanded the series to six books was to do justice to the story. I firmly believe that, too. And, he seems to have a pretty clear vision of how the story should be told -- from start to finish. In other words, it's not open-ended, like some ongoing popular fantasies seem to be.

Kristin May 8th 0:15 AM
I have no problem with re-reading books from a series when a new one is coming out. Although, I have to admit, it's rather inconvenient when publishing dates get postponed--in December I re-read NINE Katharine Kerr books in preparation for The Black Raven, due in January...and postponed until this November. :( And I just watched the Star Wars trilogy again, in preparation for the newest movie.

Which open-ended fantasies would those be? Hmm, can't imagine.....I was a hardcore Jordan fan for the first six books, but after reading the last two books I've come to the realization that I'm much more concerned about Catelyn and that sword than I am about Rand ever winning the Last Battle.

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 May 8th 9:56 AM
The Kerr books are like 400 pages or so? Imagine trying to get prepped every time a new Jordan book came out by re-reading all of the previous ones. It might be easier to read the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

By the way, Kristen, I've read the first two Kerr books and I enjoyed them. I'm guessing that you'd recommend I continue? Are the others similar in nature?

Kristin May 8th 10:48 AM
Yes, the rest are similar in nature....well, sort of. Okay, here we go....The first four books--Daggerspell, Darkspell, Bristling Wood, Dragon Revenant--are like their own mini-series, featuring Rhodry, Jill, Cullyn and co. The second four--Time of Exile, Time of Omens, Days of Blood and Fire, Days of Air and Darkness--are another mini-series, still featuring Rhodry and Jill but set mostly in the Westlands and introducing various elves. The next group, Red Wyvern, kicks off its own small series of four; so far it's the only one published. Time-period wise, it flashes from right after the seventh and eighth books to the Time of Troubles, about five hundred years previous.

I did do that for the seventh Jordan book. I was very disappointed when nothing of note happened in it.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 May 10th 1:33 PM
Thanks for the info, Kristin. I too am very disappointed about the rise and fall of the WOT series. It started off so brilliantly, and was undoubtedly headed for a strong niche in the fantasy hall of fame. What happened? Was it greed? Did Jordan himself get bored? Did he get lost amid all the characters and events? It's really too bad.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

V User ID: 9433023	May 5th 10:47 AM Hi everyone.. I occasionally check out this forum, but I haven't written anything here, so here's my first addition to this forum I just wanted to ask you guys how you feel about the Storm of Swords coming out by summer 2000?? I think that's definetly, disgusting,catastrophically late, well you get the picture... I was hoping that A song of Ice and Fire wouldn't get the "Wheel of Time" syndrom, with 1.5-2 years between the books, as it's such a great series. Robert Jordan had atleast only (...) 1 year between the first of his books, so you wouldn't lose track of the books in the beginning. To put it simple, A Song of Ice and Fire will have a hard time getting through to the "mainstream readers", if it will take a decenium or more to finnish the series. That was my first addition to this forum, =)
Jeff User ID: 8506593	May 5th 11:00 AM Velcome aboard, V! Though I wish ASOS would come out sooner, I'm willing to accept that pace due to the high quality of the two books he already has written. I'm still rather amazed at how he manages to keep the various convoluted plot threads all moving along in harmony -- its got to be quite a challenge. But if Arya ever decides to start tugging on her braid, I'm going elsewhere.
V User ID: 9433023	May 5th 11:17 AM Well, I agree with you that th first two books are REALLY good, but I have grown tired waiting for Jordans books to come out, and I don't know if I can take it one more time with a new series, even if it's better. Oh well, I will just have to try to survive long enough to read all the books in the series, =)
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 5th 11:38 AM I think expecting any author to churn out books at 6 month intervals (or even one year) is not looking at things realistically. I believe Jordan's 1 year interval at the start had special circumstances -- the pace he has now is what _most_ authors can manage. The only author I know of who has gone at one year intervals in a current series (I don't read everyone, so there may be more) is Kate Elliot -- and I've just read that the fourth (and _maybe_ concluding, she may have to go for a fifth) is _not_ going one year. The year and a half wait for Mr. Martin's third book is well worth it. We're talking 700-800 pages (consider: average author can hope to do 6 pages a day, not counting later revision, etc. -- that's a third of a year gone at the least), having to go to the editors, triple-checked, found a slot in the printing schedule (this is part of the reason CoK came out in the U.S. a couple of months after it was out in Europe), etc., etc. Everyone could wish they came out sooner. I'd love to see high quality epics written at a pace of a book a month, just so I could enjoy them all the sooner. But that's wishful thinking. A year and a half between books is an extremely reasonable pace. One is nice, but it's rare in a series as multi-layered as Martin's. I could even stand for two years between books -- I wouldn't _like_ it, but I could stand for it. As to "mainstream readers," I don't know what that is. The second book has already hit the bestsellers, and I expect SoS to top it if all goes well. So far the fantasy genre shows us that successful book series tend to get better and better sales as they go on. Just as a factoid to keep sales in perspective, from Bookwire (www.bookwire.com): Jordan's fourth book, The Shadow Rising, was on the bestseller list for 5 weeks and peaked at 10. Martin's second book, Clash of Kings, was on the bestseller list for four weeks and peaked at 12. These are pretty much the same, although I do wish I could find the figures for The Dragon Reborn. From what I can tell, Jordan's third book, however quickly following the first and second, did _not_ make the bestseller list. I'm not quite sure what this says of the market for fantasy, but a possibly erroneous conclusion (not necessarily so, however) is that Martin has found more immediate success than Jordan did. I suspect we'll see Storm of Swords surpass CoK and The Shadow Rising (and the Fires of Heaven which performed just as TSR.) The real question is whether A Dance with Dragons will match LoC (which stayed only 5 weeks on the list, but hit #4) As a disclaimer: I'm just using the comparison to the Jordan sales as one that seems obvious in being two large series which have found bestseller-level popularity. I don't think there's any real resemblance between the two beyond that and that they're both written in English. ;) Finally, V, welcome to the board. :)
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 5th 11:45 AM Also, V: Isn't your problem with waiting on Jordan's books (something which has soured me -- I buy them now only to see the end of that infernal series) more because of the fact that he has no apparent end yet in sight? I believe the last four books have been heralded by him as "probably only three more books left, maybe."
KAH User ID: 9209903	May 5th 12:21 PM This is not directed at V, but... Peeve: People who complain about the long wait between books in a great series, because 'they will have forgotten about what happened so far, who the characters were (etc.), when they finally get the new book' If a series is really good, what is so difficult about re-reading the books you already have, in order to be up to date when you start reading the new book? (I might understand it in regard to the WoT-series - going through close to ten books is a job in itself - but there should be no such problems with aSoIaF)
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	May 5th 12:32 PM As far as waiting for books, two years is very tolerable. I've been waiting for Brust's sequels to "Phoenix Guard" and "Five Hundred Years After" for what seems like five hundred years. I think it's more like four and I don't think he's even started writing them!!
Duke Dirjj User ID: 9990163	May 5th 2:33 PM You know, I would just love it if Martin, or someone close to him would come out with a book similar to Jordan's "World of the Wheel of Time" for Martin's series. That would be the best. Or even a Bestiary like Tolkien. I've got all the Tolkien stuff, Bestiary, Atlas's, you name it, I probably have it. ab
V User ID: 9433023	May 5th 2:45 PM Woha, what a nice board with fast replies, not too common =). I agree with all of you that Martin is doing well with his pace, about the same as all authors. I wasn't as some of you may think, attacking Martin for it. I was just saying that I wouldn't _mind_ a faster pace... ducks for all the replies on that sentence. As for mainstream readers... here in cold, arctic, above the polar circle, Sweden, =P. Fantasy books doesn't sell well. And I wouldn't look at ratings on amazon.com, as I, personally think, that not many 65 year olds buy their books from the net, instead they buy their books in normal bookstores. So, atleast in Sweden, Fantasy books are not among the first 200 best selling books, probably much lower. But then again, that may be totally different in the States, or? V, who constantly dodges all the replies he got from his first post =)
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 5th 2:56 PM Actually, V, Bookwire lists the actual U.S. national sales. Martin's book peaked at number 12 nation-wide (and, actually, did quite well on Amazon.com as you suggest.) As to Sweden, being an American in Goteborg, I quite understand. Frustrating to not see CoK in the local bookstores while Feist, Goodkind, Jordan. etc. rush in (although they do have the British edition of the GoT paperback which is rather nice even if the background is extremely fantasyish and not-King's Landing-like.) I'm still waiting on my American hardcover of CoK as it was only just now sent by forgetful relatives (feh -- along with a couple of Brust books and some other odds and ends.)
KAH User ID: 9209903	May 5th 2:56 PM Above the polar circle? How far north do you live (degrees-wise)?
V User ID: 9433023	May 5th 3:03 PM Well, actually I live in Stockholm, I was just making fun of some Americans I know who actually thinks it snows in Stockholm 'till about the middle of May, =)
V User ID: 9433023	May 5th 3:08 PM To continue the discussion at least a bit... So Fantasy Books actually sell well in the States? That's really cool, as almost no one in Sweden even knows what it is... Ran, try "Science Fiction och Fantasy Bokhandeln" in "Gamla Stan" if you ever go to Stockholm. They usually get the books about a week after the release in the States.
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 5th 3:11 PM Been there, liked it. :) I would have ordered from them, but I had already ordered CoK from Amazon.com _just_ before I moved from the U.S. to here -- I had hoped that it'd arrive the day before my flight. But, alas. ;) So, had to depend on relatives (grumble) to get it to me. [Aside: Never fear, those awaiting the complete concordance -- decided to press on with the U.K. edition of CoK. Maybe that'll be done before the month is out, if work goes well.]
KAH User ID: 9209903	May 6th 4:35 AM Darn! For a moment I thought I had a companion in misery, up here above the polar circle. (Even if it does not always snow until middle of May, it's a close thing sometimes. :)
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	May 7th 8:09 AM V, I've never had a major problem waiting for sequels, provided they were of similar or better quality than their predecessor books. My biggest problem is with authors who rush books out to make money ASAP without considering the real needs of their readership (which relate to quality). Knowing what I now know about GRRM, quality is of the utmost importance to him. He even said (and this is certainly not a direct quote) the reason he expanded the series to six books was to do justice to the story. I firmly believe that, too. And, he seems to have a pretty clear vision of how the story should be told -- from start to finish. In other words, it's not open-ended, like some ongoing popular fantasies seem to be.
Kristin	May 8th 0:15 AM I have no problem with re-reading books from a series when a new one is coming out. Although, I have to admit, it's rather inconvenient when publishing dates get postponed--in December I re-read NINE Katharine Kerr books in preparation for The Black Raven, due in January...and postponed until this November. :( And I just watched the Star Wars trilogy again, in preparation for the newest movie. Which open-ended fantasies would those be? Hmm, can't imagine.....I was a hardcore Jordan fan for the first six books, but after reading the last two books I've come to the realization that I'm much more concerned about Catelyn and that sword than I am about Rand ever winning the Last Battle.
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	May 8th 9:56 AM The Kerr books are like 400 pages or so? Imagine trying to get prepped every time a new Jordan book came out by re-reading all of the previous ones. It might be easier to read the Encyclopedia Brittanica. By the way, Kristen, I've read the first two Kerr books and I enjoyed them. I'm guessing that you'd recommend I continue? Are the others similar in nature?
Kristin	May 8th 10:48 AM Yes, the rest are similar in nature....well, sort of. Okay, here we go....The first four books--Daggerspell, Darkspell, Bristling Wood, Dragon Revenant--are like their own mini-series, featuring Rhodry, Jill, Cullyn and co. The second four--Time of Exile, Time of Omens, Days of Blood and Fire, Days of Air and Darkness--are another mini-series, still featuring Rhodry and Jill but set mostly in the Westlands and introducing various elves. The next group, Red Wyvern, kicks off its own small series of four; so far it's the only one published. Time-period wise, it flashes from right after the seventh and eighth books to the Time of Troubles, about five hundred years previous. I did do that for the seventh Jordan book. I was very disappointed when nothing of note happened in it.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	May 10th 1:33 PM Thanks for the info, Kristin. I too am very disappointed about the rise and fall of the WOT series. It started off so brilliantly, and was undoubtedly headed for a strong niche in the fantasy hall of fame. What happened? Was it greed? Did Jordan himself get bored? Did he get lost amid all the characters and events? It's really too bad.