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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Religion (again)

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Maeglin
User ID: 0707654 Feb 2nd 1:02 AM
The other one broke

Maeglin
User ID: 0707654 Feb 2nd 1:08 AM
We seem to be losing threads at a record rate, is there anything we can do about it?

Swithin
User ID: 0289604 Feb 2nd 5:16 AM
For GRRM's sake, put away all those lighters!

I can't say I've read the Religion topics lately, but if anyone is interested in my proof of why I'm God (I can't remember if I've posted it already,) here it is:

God, by definition, is the greatest being in all creation, yes? So there can be no greater, if there were, the greater would therefore be God. So God must be greatest, greater than all challengers, existant and potential... if all there were were a blade of grass and an ant, the ant would certainly not be God, the concept of God has much room in which to be greater than an ant or a blade of grass. But given that God must be *greater* than all challengers, there can be no aspect, attribute, or manifestation, which might be possessed by anything not God. In short, God must be *infinite* Maybe I have posted this already. If God is infinite, which it must be, then God must also be *static*. Now what is static which can exhibit will? Nothing... however, all in existence is within the nature of God, right?

Given the last point, a determined universe (surely this is not beyond the nature of God?), and that I have a computational mind, my consciousness is a mental manifestation of the physiology (yes, it is affected by every particle, to some degree, and from my consciousness therefore the image of the universe *could* be derived) of the universe which is the nature of God which is, simply, God. God might not have will as God, but as the heir of the process, my determined conscious experience might well be called the thought and will, if not identity, of God. I am the Prophet, people. I am His Voice and His Brain. Now listen to me and don't figure out that the argument works for all of you as well. Besides, I'm the one who's saying it, therefore it's in my nature (and knowing that God is God must be in God's nature) so it doesn't work for you really.

I demand you cast a Golden Calf and send it to me immediately! I said IMME**476~e}3VS$g([ no carrier

Kevin
User ID: 0053014 Feb 2nd 4:42 PM
For the lack of time to respond seriously to a question posed to me two weeks ago, I will post a joke that was sent to me:

A man arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter asks, "Religion?" The man says, "Methodist."

St. Peter looks down his list, and says, "Go to room 24, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

Another man arrives at the gates of heaven. "Religion?" "Baptist." "Go to room 18, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

A third man arrives at the gates. "Religion?" "Jewish." "Go to room 11, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

The man says, "I can understand there being different rooms for different religions, but why must I be quiet when I pass room 8?"

St. Peter tells him, "Well the Catholics are in room 8, and they think they're the only ones here.

Hope you enjoyed :--)

Alex
User ID: 9892733 Feb 3rd 9:02 AM
This is a good one! Had me some chuckles over it.

Sphinx
User ID: 8882983 Feb 3rd 5:03 PM
Swithin's post is pretty similar to a concept which runs through work by Douglas Adams and Neil Gaiman, as well as philosophers such as Baruch Spinoza, which is that God IS the universe; we are all, as Swithin says, God, or at least part of him/her/it.

The way Gaiman suggests it is particularly interesting in that splitting itself into parts (beings, planets, etc) is the universe's attempt to understand itself. Similar to this again is the way that all humans are part of the program to find the question of life the universe and everything in HGTTG. It's a nice thought...

Kevin
User ID: 0053014 Feb 4th 3:04 PM
Ok Alex I think I'm ready. Just curious, what level do you want me to answer your question? Personal, Theological, Phillisophical? I will go with personal to start with. To let you know at the beginning, I've read the entire New Testiment but only about 3/4 of Genisis (long time ago) and the book of Joshua. I am currently working on the Old Testiment but it's a big book ya know.

Why did we loose paradise? I'm assuming you mean the whole garden of Eden fiasco. Basically my understanding is that when God created man he gave them free will. Man then used that free will to disobey God. God then punished man by sending them out of the garden.

I have found in my reading that the relationship between God and man is one very much like the relationship between parent and child. Some people would call what God did cruel but looking at it from a parent's (God's) perspective it is not that unusual a punishment.

I realize that my explanation is a very high level one. If you would like to go deeper, we can.

Alex
User ID: 9704903 Feb 6th 2:43 PM
Let's stay on the personal level, on other two that you've mentioned, there are tons of volumes already written, no need to re-iterate endless arguments.

"...But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die..."(Gen 3) So, a threat. What is the big deal?

After they ate:"...Cursed is the ground because of you..." Now, we have earthquaqes, tidal waves, volcanos, snow storms - all that staff we classify as "the acts of God"

Why? "...then the Lord God said, 'See the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might...take also form the tree of life and eat, and live forever'- therefore the lord god sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken..."(Gen 3)

I see man beginning to obtain that creative force, which had been the domain of the divine priortofore, and which is impossible without having both good and evil, as two opposites (and old but nonetheless valid argument, that to create light you need to create darkness to tell one from another, etc.), and God dealing with it in "cruel and unusual" manner. If, however, one says that man did it to himself, well, that means there is no God, is there?

I do not see the child-parent relationship, sorry. I see jealousy. I see the fear that man can supplant God. No parent would subject his child to such tortures, that God did to his man. No parent would consider a sacrifice of his only child, be it a test or whatever. Well, that is the God, who allowed his own son to be crucified.

Maeglin
User ID: 0707654 Feb 7th 2:24 AM
If before they ate the apple Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong how would they know it was wrong to disobey Gods command?

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Feb 7th 7:52 AM
I've always thought Genesis -- at least the Adam and Eve portions -- were not believable. Maeglin points out one valid criticism, and some of the other language in Genenis just doesn't make sense. One of "us"?? Who else is there? The chance of man becoming a god just by eating an apple for a second tree is inconsistent with my idea of who God is. Also, punishing not only Adam and Eve but their offspring is unjust.

I agree with you, Kevin, that God's relationship to man is closest to parent-child. The garden of Eden thing just doesn't seem to fit that, though. To be honest, while I think most of the bible is pretty reliable, that portion of Genesis seems to be more like the whole-cloth creation of a later generation. Heresy, I know.

Alex
User ID: 9892733 Feb 7th 8:51 AM
Many portions of the Genesis (and the whole sriptures) are creations of different generations. The whole second story of creation was developed centuries after first one (darn, forgot the date), during an infamous Babilonial exile, to counter their own popular story of creation - Inuma Alish, it was called. Of course, the whole story with apple tree is just an allegory, but, IMO, one of the most important ones, for it is an attempt to understand and explain what happened with God-human relationship, the deal with nature disasters, lost paradase (read, harmony), establishing the basis for family institution, etc. And, apperently, it it the best explanation there is, as it was accepted as the first and foremost part of the Canon by both Judaism and Christianity.

You see, we are all a laborotory animals to God, and he deliberately set up such conditions in which we live now - our universe with its laws of probability, gravity, magma, lava, blah, blah...Unless, UNLESS,something happened in the "Garden of Edem" (read-at the onset of our existance) between man and creator, which caused such conditions to occur. What was it(never mind the childish apple tree and who eat first, Adam or Eve)? Was it man's first attempt to grab the steering wheel? Knowledge of good and evil - is it not paraphrase for creative force and comprehention of the universe?

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Feb 7th 10:54 AM
Jeff;

Are you sure that the Biblical God's will and actions actually even _overall_ fits the term 'just'?

I dunno, but Job springs to mind, where he is essentially thrown to the wolves because Satan talks God into testing his faith. And when he finally lies there, with his property ruined, family and friends killed, and grossly disease-ridden, and has the audacity to ask _why_, God fends him off with something that appears to me like a lame excuse.

If God was just, wouldn't he then test _all_ people like he did Job? Why test Job _specifically_?

Another thing that springs to mind is God's seeming penchant for destroying cities wholesale - if he deems some city 'evil', it goes, whether or not all the people therein are deserving of punishment or not.
I recall vaguely one city (Sodom?) which God stated his wish to destroy, for it's evilness. A prophet asked God that he showed mercy to the city, if he could find five just people therein. And God agreed.
Of course, the prophet couldn't find a single just being in there, but that's beside the point. The point is that God would destroy the city (and all it's inhabitants), _regardless_ if some just people perished as a byeffect, because of the 'overall' evilness of the city.

This suggests two alternatives to me - either God doesn't care overmuch if he throws out a few babies with the dirty bath water, or his 'smart bombs' needs improvement. :P

Alex
User ID: 9892733 Feb 7th 1:06 PM
That is (IMO)the problem with the Bible - despite all very elaborate and intricate explanations, presented by the fathers of church, I do not see God as caring, just, or kind being - the whole Genesis story, the Book of Job, Sodom and Gomorra, Lot and his wife, etc. - if you are a true christian, you must love god, and I just cannot make myself to love a sadist (I really like Jesus, though, who his daddy observed being crucified)

Kevin
User ID: 0053014 Feb 7th 7:55 PM
Personally - ok. My personal view of the book of Genisis is that it is not something that can be taken literally. It strikes me that it is more along the lines of a story that an adult would tell a child to explain something very complex. It is similar to the explanation I gave above. It is simplified. There are going to be inconsistancies in any simplified story.

BTW - how did it get to be an apple tree? Do apples grow in that region? Hmmmm don't think so.

Before you all crucify me on being a christian and not taking all of the bible literally, let me say that I don't think the entire bible was meant to be taken literally. The book of psalms is a great example. It is basically poetry and songs. It is meant to show God's love and how we should show our love to him.

Where does that leave us? How do we know what sections to take literally and which sections not? That is a good question. When I read the bible, I sometimes set that question aside. I just LISTEN to what the bible is saying to ME. It is a living book. It speaks to you on a personal level.

Now I also study the bible and the words written in it. There are several different levels that you can read the bible on.

Alex, does your daughter always view your punishments as just?

Have you ever told your daughter, "if you touch the stove, you will get burned"? Was that a threat or a statement of fact?

You are wrong, every parent lets their children suffer in some situations to teach them. An example (not the best) would be a parent making a teen smoke 10 cigarettes at a time when the teen was caught smoking. The parent is sacrificing the child by allowing/making the child suffer (get sick) to teach him that smoking is bad.

Personal experience is the best teacher and you have to admit that we can all be a bit dense at times. Did you always listen to what your parents told you? Did it matter that they would tell you 3000 times? No, there has been at least once in all our lives that we have ignored great advice and had to learn by personal experience.

It has been said here that we have no way of understanding God's mind. We are incapable. It seems that that is also similar to what a child knows compared to his parents.

Kevin
User ID: 0053014 Feb 7th 7:59 PM
Alex, your reasons for being an aethiest are some of the best I've heard yet. It is not just about logic. Being an aethiest requires a leap of faith as well because we don't know.

You on the other hand seem well versed. It is just that you can not bring yourself to love what you know of God. That is honest. I do wish that I could help you see the love that is there for you.

Relic
User ID: 0547294 Feb 7th 8:07 PM
Kevin do you like Alex's reasons because he believes in a God? As opposed to aethiests who dont see one at all?

Anonymous Feb 8th 4:59 AM
It is impossible to argue with someone who believes in God if good things are happening they are being rewarded if bad things are they are being tested and they consider both a blessing. Is this so no matter what is happening in life you can assure yourself that God has it under control. I challenge everyone that believes there is a god to say one thing god has done for them that he hasn't done for an Atheist

Relic
User ID: 0053014 Feb 8th 12:43 PM
Relic - No that is not the reason. I don't see that Alex does believe there is a God. I found his answer very honest. That is why I think I liked it so much. It wasn't a reason steeped in practiced lines or old arguments. I'm not saying that all aethiests use practiced lines and old arguments but many do just like many theists do.

Anonymous - please use a name. I don't like having discussions with people I don't know. We are good on this board and won't flame you for your oppinions. As to what God has done for me that he hasn't for an aetheist - he has saved me. I will get to go and be with him where someone who denies him will not.

I agree that it is impossible to argue with a theist just as it is to argue with an aethiest if your goal is to change their core belief. It is impossible to explain but I can see very evident signs in my life of where God is working. I have also directly felt God with me on several occasions and it was a feeling like no other feeling I have ever had. I do not offer these up as an argument but more of an explanation for why I believe.

Sphinx
User ID: 8882983 Feb 8th 2:59 PM
The alternative to faith is reason. If you accept as I do that, if God exists, it is impossible to understand her (and this does seem to me to be eminently reasonable), than you have to accept that it is impossible to 'reason' that there is or is not a God. By her very definition, it has to be a question of faith, not reason. And the question is, do you have that faith or not? I don't, although I'm not diametrically opposed to it, because reason hasn't proved to me that God doesn't exist, either.

Kevin
User ID: 0053014 Feb 8th 5:15 PM
Sorry that last Relic post was from me :--).

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Maeglin User ID: 0707654	Feb 2nd 1:02 AM The other one broke
Maeglin User ID: 0707654	Feb 2nd 1:08 AM We seem to be losing threads at a record rate, is there anything we can do about it?
Swithin User ID: 0289604	Feb 2nd 5:16 AM For GRRM's sake, put away all those lighters! I can't say I've read the Religion topics lately, but if anyone is interested in my proof of why I'm God (I can't remember if I've posted it already,) here it is: God, by definition, is the greatest being in all creation, yes? So there can be no greater, if there were, the greater would therefore be God. So God must be greatest, greater than all challengers, existant and potential... if all there were were a blade of grass and an ant, the ant would certainly not be God, the concept of God has much room in which to be greater than an ant or a blade of grass. But given that God must be greater than all challengers, there can be no aspect, attribute, or manifestation, which might be possessed by anything not God. In short, God must be infinite Maybe I have posted this already. If God is infinite, which it must be, then God must also be static. Now what is static which can exhibit will? Nothing... however, all in existence is within the nature of God, right? Given the last point, a determined universe (surely this is not beyond the nature of God?), and that I have a computational mind, my consciousness is a mental manifestation of the physiology (yes, it is affected by every particle, to some degree, and from my consciousness therefore the image of the universe could be derived) of the universe which is the nature of God which is, simply, God. God might not have will as God, but as the heir of the process, my determined conscious experience might well be called the thought and will, if not identity, of God. I am the Prophet, people. I am His Voice and His Brain. Now listen to me and don't figure out that the argument works for all of you as well. Besides, I'm the one who's saying it, therefore it's in my nature (and knowing that God is God must be in God's nature) so it doesn't work for you really. I demand you cast a Golden Calf and send it to me immediately! I said IMME**476~e}3VS$g([ no carrier
Kevin User ID: 0053014	Feb 2nd 4:42 PM For the lack of time to respond seriously to a question posed to me two weeks ago, I will post a joke that was sent to me: A man arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter asks, "Religion?" The man says, "Methodist." St. Peter looks down his list, and says, "Go to room 24, but be very quiet as you pass room 8." Another man arrives at the gates of heaven. "Religion?" "Baptist." "Go to room 18, but be very quiet as you pass room 8." A third man arrives at the gates. "Religion?" "Jewish." "Go to room 11, but be very quiet as you pass room 8." The man says, "I can understand there being different rooms for different religions, but why must I be quiet when I pass room 8?" St. Peter tells him, "Well the Catholics are in room 8, and they think they're the only ones here. Hope you enjoyed :--)
Alex User ID: 9892733	Feb 3rd 9:02 AM This is a good one! Had me some chuckles over it.
Sphinx User ID: 8882983	Feb 3rd 5:03 PM Swithin's post is pretty similar to a concept which runs through work by Douglas Adams and Neil Gaiman, as well as philosophers such as Baruch Spinoza, which is that God IS the universe; we are all, as Swithin says, God, or at least part of him/her/it. The way Gaiman suggests it is particularly interesting in that splitting itself into parts (beings, planets, etc) is the universe's attempt to understand itself. Similar to this again is the way that all humans are part of the program to find the question of life the universe and everything in HGTTG. It's a nice thought...
Kevin User ID: 0053014	Feb 4th 3:04 PM Ok Alex I think I'm ready. Just curious, what level do you want me to answer your question? Personal, Theological, Phillisophical? I will go with personal to start with. To let you know at the beginning, I've read the entire New Testiment but only about 3/4 of Genisis (long time ago) and the book of Joshua. I am currently working on the Old Testiment but it's a big book ya know. Why did we loose paradise? I'm assuming you mean the whole garden of Eden fiasco. Basically my understanding is that when God created man he gave them free will. Man then used that free will to disobey God. God then punished man by sending them out of the garden. I have found in my reading that the relationship between God and man is one very much like the relationship between parent and child. Some people would call what God did cruel but looking at it from a parent's (God's) perspective it is not that unusual a punishment. I realize that my explanation is a very high level one. If you would like to go deeper, we can.
Alex User ID: 9704903	Feb 6th 2:43 PM Let's stay on the personal level, on other two that you've mentioned, there are tons of volumes already written, no need to re-iterate endless arguments. "...But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die..."(Gen 3) So, a threat. What is the big deal? After they ate:"...Cursed is the ground because of you..." Now, we have earthquaqes, tidal waves, volcanos, snow storms - all that staff we classify as "the acts of God" Why? "...then the Lord God said, 'See the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might...take also form the tree of life and eat, and live forever'- therefore the lord god sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken..."(Gen 3) I see man beginning to obtain that creative force, which had been the domain of the divine priortofore, and which is impossible without having both good and evil, as two opposites (and old but nonetheless valid argument, that to create light you need to create darkness to tell one from another, etc.), and God dealing with it in "cruel and unusual" manner. If, however, one says that man did it to himself, well, that means there is no God, is there? I do not see the child-parent relationship, sorry. I see jealousy. I see the fear that man can supplant God. No parent would subject his child to such tortures, that God did to his man. No parent would consider a sacrifice of his only child, be it a test or whatever. Well, that is the God, who allowed his own son to be crucified.
Maeglin User ID: 0707654	Feb 7th 2:24 AM If before they ate the apple Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong how would they know it was wrong to disobey Gods command?
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Feb 7th 7:52 AM I've always thought Genesis -- at least the Adam and Eve portions -- were not believable. Maeglin points out one valid criticism, and some of the other language in Genenis just doesn't make sense. One of "us"?? Who else is there? The chance of man becoming a god just by eating an apple for a second tree is inconsistent with my idea of who God is. Also, punishing not only Adam and Eve but their offspring is unjust. I agree with you, Kevin, that God's relationship to man is closest to parent-child. The garden of Eden thing just doesn't seem to fit that, though. To be honest, while I think most of the bible is pretty reliable, that portion of Genesis seems to be more like the whole-cloth creation of a later generation. Heresy, I know.
Alex User ID: 9892733	Feb 7th 8:51 AM Many portions of the Genesis (and the whole sriptures) are creations of different generations. The whole second story of creation was developed centuries after first one (darn, forgot the date), during an infamous Babilonial exile, to counter their own popular story of creation - Inuma Alish, it was called. Of course, the whole story with apple tree is just an allegory, but, IMO, one of the most important ones, for it is an attempt to understand and explain what happened with God-human relationship, the deal with nature disasters, lost paradase (read, harmony), establishing the basis for family institution, etc. And, apperently, it it the best explanation there is, as it was accepted as the first and foremost part of the Canon by both Judaism and Christianity. You see, we are all a laborotory animals to God, and he deliberately set up such conditions in which we live now - our universe with its laws of probability, gravity, magma, lava, blah, blah...Unless, UNLESS,something happened in the "Garden of Edem" (read-at the onset of our existance) between man and creator, which caused such conditions to occur. What was it(never mind the childish apple tree and who eat first, Adam or Eve)? Was it man's first attempt to grab the steering wheel? Knowledge of good and evil - is it not paraphrase for creative force and comprehention of the universe?
KAH User ID: 0541004	Feb 7th 10:54 AM Jeff; Are you sure that the Biblical God's will and actions actually even _overall_ fits the term 'just'? I dunno, but Job springs to mind, where he is essentially thrown to the wolves because Satan talks God into testing his faith. And when he finally lies there, with his property ruined, family and friends killed, and grossly disease-ridden, and has the audacity to ask _why_, God fends him off with something that appears to me like a lame excuse. If God was just, wouldn't he then test _all_ people like he did Job? Why test Job _specifically_? Another thing that springs to mind is God's seeming penchant for destroying cities wholesale - if he deems some city 'evil', it goes, whether or not all the people therein are deserving of punishment or not. I recall vaguely one city (Sodom?) which God stated his wish to destroy, for it's evilness. A prophet asked God that he showed mercy to the city, if he could find five just people therein. And God agreed. Of course, the prophet couldn't find a single just being in there, but that's beside the point. The point is that God would destroy the city (and all it's inhabitants), _regardless_ if some just people perished as a byeffect, because of the 'overall' evilness of the city. This suggests two alternatives to me - either God doesn't care overmuch if he throws out a few babies with the dirty bath water, or his 'smart bombs' needs improvement. :P
Alex User ID: 9892733	Feb 7th 1:06 PM That is (IMO)the problem with the Bible - despite all very elaborate and intricate explanations, presented by the fathers of church, I do not see God as caring, just, or kind being - the whole Genesis story, the Book of Job, Sodom and Gomorra, Lot and his wife, etc. - if you are a true christian, you must love god, and I just cannot make myself to love a sadist (I really like Jesus, though, who his daddy observed being crucified)
Kevin User ID: 0053014	Feb 7th 7:55 PM Personally - ok. My personal view of the book of Genisis is that it is not something that can be taken literally. It strikes me that it is more along the lines of a story that an adult would tell a child to explain something very complex. It is similar to the explanation I gave above. It is simplified. There are going to be inconsistancies in any simplified story. BTW - how did it get to be an apple tree? Do apples grow in that region? Hmmmm don't think so. Before you all crucify me on being a christian and not taking all of the bible literally, let me say that I don't think the entire bible was meant to be taken literally. The book of psalms is a great example. It is basically poetry and songs. It is meant to show God's love and how we should show our love to him. Where does that leave us? How do we know what sections to take literally and which sections not? That is a good question. When I read the bible, I sometimes set that question aside. I just LISTEN to what the bible is saying to ME. It is a living book. It speaks to you on a personal level. Now I also study the bible and the words written in it. There are several different levels that you can read the bible on. Alex, does your daughter always view your punishments as just? Have you ever told your daughter, "if you touch the stove, you will get burned"? Was that a threat or a statement of fact? You are wrong, every parent lets their children suffer in some situations to teach them. An example (not the best) would be a parent making a teen smoke 10 cigarettes at a time when the teen was caught smoking. The parent is sacrificing the child by allowing/making the child suffer (get sick) to teach him that smoking is bad. Personal experience is the best teacher and you have to admit that we can all be a bit dense at times. Did you always listen to what your parents told you? Did it matter that they would tell you 3000 times? No, there has been at least once in all our lives that we have ignored great advice and had to learn by personal experience. It has been said here that we have no way of understanding God's mind. We are incapable. It seems that that is also similar to what a child knows compared to his parents.
Kevin User ID: 0053014	Feb 7th 7:59 PM Alex, your reasons for being an aethiest are some of the best I've heard yet. It is not just about logic. Being an aethiest requires a leap of faith as well because we don't know. You on the other hand seem well versed. It is just that you can not bring yourself to love what you know of God. That is honest. I do wish that I could help you see the love that is there for you.
Relic User ID: 0547294	Feb 7th 8:07 PM Kevin do you like Alex's reasons because he believes in a God? As opposed to aethiests who dont see one at all?
Anonymous	Feb 8th 4:59 AM It is impossible to argue with someone who believes in God if good things are happening they are being rewarded if bad things are they are being tested and they consider both a blessing. Is this so no matter what is happening in life you can assure yourself that God has it under control. I challenge everyone that believes there is a god to say one thing god has done for them that he hasn't done for an Atheist
Relic User ID: 0053014	Feb 8th 12:43 PM Relic - No that is not the reason. I don't see that Alex does believe there is a God. I found his answer very honest. That is why I think I liked it so much. It wasn't a reason steeped in practiced lines or old arguments. I'm not saying that all aethiests use practiced lines and old arguments but many do just like many theists do. Anonymous - please use a name. I don't like having discussions with people I don't know. We are good on this board and won't flame you for your oppinions. As to what God has done for me that he hasn't for an aetheist - he has saved me. I will get to go and be with him where someone who denies him will not. I agree that it is impossible to argue with a theist just as it is to argue with an aethiest if your goal is to change their core belief. It is impossible to explain but I can see very evident signs in my life of where God is working. I have also directly felt God with me on several occasions and it was a feeling like no other feeling I have ever had. I do not offer these up as an argument but more of an explanation for why I believe.
Sphinx User ID: 8882983	Feb 8th 2:59 PM The alternative to faith is reason. If you accept as I do that, if God exists, it is impossible to understand her (and this does seem to me to be eminently reasonable), than you have to accept that it is impossible to 'reason' that there is or is not a God. By her very definition, it has to be a question of faith, not reason. And the question is, do you have that faith or not? I don't, although I'm not diametrically opposed to it, because reason hasn't proved to me that God doesn't exist, either.
Kevin User ID: 0053014	Feb 8th 5:15 PM Sorry that last Relic post was from me :--).