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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / SF by other Authors

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Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:32 PM
I've decided to compress, rather haphazardly, some of the non-GRRM SF discussion into one thread. I'm afraid it won't be satisfactory to anyone - I basically set them in place sequentially, according to the age of the thread, so what you'll see is a discussion of Asimov for several posts, than a discussion of the Hyperion Cantos, and then the Culture books. However, these threads have been relatively dead or are new enough that I don't think it's a big problem. It does gain us several new threads for future use.

The discussion of Orson Scott Card hasn't been moved to this mainly because of its size, if anyone wonders.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:36 PM
From "The Good Doctor - A Board about Asimov":

Omer posted:

I'm readind right now The second book in the so calles second foundation triology, and although it's intresting, it reminded me much i miss the only true Master of Science Fiction.
Anyone with me?

Bill Hall posted:

I'm not sure we should discuss Asimov here, but what the ...Isaac himself said that a lot of his plots came from John Campbell, who was Astounding/Analog's editor in those days. Campbell would ask Isaac to consider a what if? scenario, and then he would publish the results. The whole Foundation series was published in Astounding as novelettes and serials. He did that with other famous authors of that era, too. Many critics with more knowledge than I (I just read the stuff) consider that the true creator of modern sf was Campbell.

This is not to detract from Asimov, who was a great writer, especially of expository works on science. My personal opinion is that his attempt to join the robot themes to the Foundation history didn't work very well. Ditto for the three B's prequel.

If you want a fascinating and intricate future history series, try C. J. Cherryh. The most fun to start with are the "Chanur" novels, but chronologically Downbelow Station is first.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:37 PM
Omer posted:

Bill - from what I understand, Campbell and Asimov pretty much went around creditting each other for everything, from The Laes of Robotics to Nightfall. It was Asimov who wrote everything.

Yeah, I agree, with a few exceptions, the connection was a lousy idea. sure, Prolog to Foundation was readable and Robots of Dawn was almost good, but overall they wouldn't remain as sci-fi landmarks.

And aren't Hugo awards stupid? Asimov got one for Foundation's Edge, which is, frankly, a lousy novel.

Bill Hall posted:

Sentimentality and politics are important forces in every kind of award, from Oscars to Nobel Prizes. Still, the process has redeeming social value for its participants - not just those receiving the awards.

Other authors than Asimov have described the Campbell "mentoring" process they went through. I can't cite chapter and verse, but I imagine if you looked through the books written about the history of sf you would find references to it. Or you could e-mail a request to the SFWA. As I recall, some authors wouldn't tolerate it, while others thrived on his rather forceful suggestions. He was a good writer himself: "Who Goes There?" is the original for "The Thing," and much scarier. He wrote that in the 1930's (under the name Don A. Stuart).

Again, Asimov wrote many wonderful things that had no Campbell influence - I believe all of his shorter works of fiction have now been collected and re-published (by Doubleday?), so if you haven't read them already, you should request copies through your local library. Many of his non-fiction essays on scientific subjects, published in F&SF (the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction), are classics. I used to read those before any of the stories.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:37 PM
Omer posted:

Where's everybody?

Bill, sure, but I have great misgivings about the Hugos. They're really only very partial reflection of the sci-fi scene. To it's credit, it did get some of the real winners of sci-fi( Ender's Game, Hyperion), but it missed many( Foundation for 15 years, The Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, Rest of the Hyperion cantos, Wild Seed, etc) and included lots of losers( The Mars series and Foundation's Edge are noteable)

Oh yeah, and while it's true that campbell, for the better and the worst had a lot of influence on many writers, Asimov included, none of those writers became Asimov but Asimov, If you know what I mean

Haaruk posted:

The "only true master" Omer? So what were Verne, Zamiatin, Huxley and Wells? And others.

Omer posted:

ne'er heard about Zamith.

as for Huxley, well, I found that his books don't hold the test of time too well,Verne writes for children, and I'm afraid I've never read Wells. I dislike Heinelin, as well as Clarke. DUNE is good, very very good, but isn't as great as all of Asimov's worlds and creations.

Ran posted:

I think I can guess why you like RAH, Omer, but I'm curious as to your dislike of Clarke. Any particular reasons?

Asimov and Clarke both have a similar prose style -- simple, objective, to the point. They both dabble in similar sorts of short stories, as well. Since as underpinnings, lots of sense of wonder.

Even the ideas behind their novels are fairly alike in focus. Compare Clarke's great _Childhood's End_ with some of the philosophical considerations in Asimov's _The Gods Themselves_ or the Foundation books.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:38 PM
Omer posted:

Ran. whose RAH? As for Clarke, I've ready maybe five or six of his books, and I find that there isn't much of a story. Asimov is so tightly written. With Clarke it's some devine point, usually about the elevation fo mankind, and a pretty unrelated story. Childhood's End, if I'm not mistaken, is the story where all humans accept one become something wiered, right?

Well, that's a classic. The story itself has nothing to do wih a story. Mankind elevates to this great thing, and someone watches. I like stories where characters actually do something.

Or take Rama. I haven't read the sequels, but all that's happening in Rama is this wiered astroid thing comming to the solar system. It's being boarded a little, and then it goes away. There isn't much of a story, really.

Omer posted:

I just read 'The Gods Themselves' it was OK, but it was no 'Foundation'

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:38 PM
From "The Hyperion Cantos":

Omer posted:

I'm currently reading the fourth part of this marvel creation, and since I've heard it refered to here oftem enough, I figured we could talk about it.

So here's a topic: Hyperion Vs. A Song of Ice and Fire

Zelticgar posted:

Since I have only read the 1st Hyperion book I can only compare AGOT VS. Hyperion. I would say the differences between them are many, the most obvious being the genre, SF vs Fantasy.
I think what works for both books is that they use a style of POV characters to tell the story. A Game of Thrones was by far a better book but that is only because I am a huge Fantasy fan as apposed sci fi.
I am certainly going to finish the Hyperion series but as far as series goes ASOIAF is hands down the best I have ever run across.

Omer posted:

I can't compare these two. A Song of Ice and Fire is a Fantasy story, and a more entertaining read, but the power of the ideas in Hyperion... it's just two diffrent things

Zelticgar posted:

The most powerful thing about Hyperion is the way Simmons threads the story. He left a lot of mystery at the end, but he also answered a lot of questions. The reverse aging story was unique and I truly liked Sol as a character. I was also compelled by Father Hoyt's story. I am definately going to read part II soon.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:39 PM
Kevin posted:

I was so bored with Hyperion that I vowed never to read anything from Simmons again. My vote is for aSoFaI.

Omer posted:

How can you get bored with Hyperion? how far did u read?

Telisaine posted:

I enjoyed Hyperion I and II very much. III was okay, but I didn't devour it like I did the others. That said, I admit that I am struggling with IV. It's sitting on my shelf somewhere, gathering dust.

My preference skews towards fantasy, and I recall that the first two had a nice dose of it. I guess I felt that the third book had more sci-fi, and therefore, I did not enjoy it as much.

But I certainly have no desire to reread the Hyperion books anytime soon, as opposed to my feelings regarding AGOT(which I am rereading for the 4th time) and ACOK. Ender's Game is the only sci-fi novel I reread on a regular basis.

Omer posted:

Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion are wildly agreed to be better then the other two, still, there's lots of cool things about Emion and the rise of Emion...

I don't re read them either, becaus ethey're not as accecable as ASOIAF, and also because I CAN get the ending, while I'm still not breathing waiting for ASOS

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:40 PM
Haaurk posted:

Hyperion is one of the finest science fiction efforts I have ever read. Brilliant, creative, original. The series as a whole, including the Endymion books is disjointed and struggles for consistency. Hyperion by itself is superior to AGOT and ACOK. Taken as a unit the symmetry and strength of ASOIF is better than the Hyperion series. The Fall of Hyperion is inferior to both AGOT and ACOK. As is Endymion which lacked both originality and force. With the concluding novel 'The Rise of Endymion' Simmons again reaches the nerve centers that made Hyperion so splendid.

If Martin maintains over the long haul of six books the quality and energy he has so far achieved with the first two then his effort will be superior. Even if none of the six actually matches the grandeur of the first Hyperion novel.

Omer posted:

I think the comperison is wrong, and I can only blame myself... putting Hyperion Versus ASoIaF is unjust, because they're as different as any books can be. It'll be unfair to compare them. As a story teller, I'll allways prefer Martin.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:41 PM
The Infinite Monkey posted:

For sheer scope of ideas Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion are far superior to ASoIaF (I never read the others, deciding it was better to stop with Fall of Hyperion).

Hyperion is also a more ambitious literary work, it its tribute to the Canterbury Tales.

As a stand alone, Hyperion is a better book, almost a classic.

As a series, the Hyperion Cantos are a bit weak.

As a series, (While it isn't finshed yet) ASoIaF is (so far) ahead. If Martin keeps up the same intensity and development throughout the next books it will probably become my favourite series, easily supplanting the WoT which has been seriously dragging for the last four books.

Jeff posted:

I really liked Hyperion as well. The only thing for which I would downgrade it (very slightly) is that the lack of resolution weakens it a bit as a stand alone book. I would have been very aggravated had I read Hyperion and had to wait a year for Fall of Hyperion. Overall, though, it was a truly exception book - better than either AGOT or ACOK. Like haaruk, I really liked Endymion as well. Maybe a little bit more because it was a very character driven book, like Hyperion, but focusing mostly on one just character.

Like all you , though, I think ASOIAF may well be the superior series. The pieces fit together better than the Hyperion Cantos making the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:41 PM
From "Discussions of the Culture":

The Infinite Monkey posted:

I know this is primarily a board for ASoIaF, but since this is the "Other" board, and some other SF topics seem to have slipped in I figured this one was kosher.

Well, anyway, I have recently gone on an Iain M. Banks kick and read most of his Culture books. I find the Culture universe possible one of the most enthralling SF or Fantasy worlds I have ever read about. I've even started taking other Banks books out of the library and searching them for Culture clues or references (I get obsessive ;-) ) Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone else here reads, and is a fan of Banks.

Sphinx posted:

I've only read 'The Player of Games', but it's amazing, especially if you are into chess and various games of that ilk. I've read loads of his stuff without the 'M.', though; 'Walking on Glass' and 'The Bridge' are two of the most enthralling books I've read (and two of the wierdest) - Walking... twists like a BASTARD, and though you just know the threads are going to intertwine, you have NO idea how. 'The Wasp Factory' and 'The Crow Road' are excellent, too, and 'Whit' and 'Complicity' are also well worth reading. Wasn't keen on 'A Song of Stone', though.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 6:42 PM
Omer posted:

I wanted to read Banks for a long time... what's the best book to start with?

Sphinx posted:

I started with Walking On Glass, and I've never looked back, although many would probably say begin at the beginning with The Wasp Factory. Either would be cool, but I'd recommend against The Bridge or Song Of Stone just on general wierdness value - they gel a bit more once you're used to him. Also, The Crow Road and Whit are harder reading than the others.

The Infinite Monkey posted:

Just don't read the "Wasp Factory" on a queasy stomache.

What I like about Banks is he experiments a bit with literary forms, but it can take a little getting used to.

Sphinx posted:

I know what you mean. The second-person narratives in Complicity and Song Of Stone are very strange. Strangely, though I liked Complicity and understood the integral nature of the second-person style to the story, I couldn't get my head round it as much as I could in Song Of Stone, even though I liked that less.

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End of old discussions
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Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 31st 3:03 PM
Omer posted:

It seems to me that everyone's ignoring the short stories and the novellas. They're hard to find, and no one ever refers to them. I think its a shame. Especially for GrrM fans, cause Martin is a great author of short fiction, and he has written much more short pieces then long ones.

So here's a short list of great short stories:

Asimov, Isaac 'The Final Question' 'The Feeling of Power' 'Reason' 'Galley Slave' 'Evidence' and 'Breeds there a man'

Arthur C Clarke, The Star

Harlan Ellison 'the Ticktock man' (its a longer title, I don't recall it all)

Daniel Keyes - Flowers for Algernon( possibly the greatest short story I've ever read)

Ursulla K Leguin, the Speeky Questionaire

George R R Martin - Sandkings, The Hedge Knight, Winter's Chill(A Wild Card short story)

John Varley, 'Press Enter'.

Connie Willis - even the Queen. Really Funny.

Zelazny, Roger - I don't remember the exact name, 'A Flower for something :-)'

This is just off the top of my head. Short stories I wanna read:

'The 9 bllion names of God' Arthur C Clarke, 'Enter Soldier; Later, enter another by Robert Silverberg', and 'Potraites of his Children' by George R R Martin

Great short stories collections: The best are probably Asimov's Hugo winners, which have like some of the very best stories, many of them mentioned here. Then there's a new one The Reel
Stuff, which has GrrM's stuff, along with John Varley, Philip K Dick, Robert Silverberg, etc

OK... what are your picks, fellows?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 31st 3:47 PM
Asimov: Many that you say, though I wouldn't put 'Galley Slave' there. Some others: Quite a few of the I, Robot stories; 'Eyes Do More than See', 'The Gentle Vultures', 'Dreaming is a Private Thing'. 'Hell-Fire', 'The Dead Past', 'I'm in Marspot without Hilda'

Clarke: 'The Sentinel,' 'The Nine Billion Names of God,' 'The Star', 'Rescue Party', 'A Meeting with Medusa'

Zelazny: 'A Rose for Ecclesiastes', 'For a Breath I Tarry'

Heinlein: Way too many. 'The Long Watch,' 'Life-line', 'The Green Hills of Earth,' 'The Roads Must Roll,' 'If This Goes On,' 'Requiem,' 'By his Bootstraps,' 'And He Built a Crooked House', 'The Man who Sold the Moon,' and plenty more

Ellison: '"Repent, Harlequin!", said the Ticktock Man', 'A Boy and His Dog,' 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream,' 'Along the Scenic Route,' 'Jeffty is Five,' 'Paladin of the Lost Hour,' 'Mephistophles in Onyx' (though maybe it's more a short novel), and many more.

Le Guin: 'Winter's King,' 'The One who Walks Away from Omelas', 'The Day after the Revolution,' 'The Word for World is Forest,' 'Semley's Necklace'

Bradbury: Lots. Stuff in the Martin Chronicles. 'A Sound of Thunder,' more

Theodore Sturgeon: 'Microcosmic God,' 'Slow Sculpture,' 'The Man Who Lost the Sea,' 'The Golden Helix,' 'The World Well Lost'

Fritz Leiber: The Lankhmar stories, many of them. 'Gonna Role the Bones.'

Cyril M. Kornbluth: 'The Marching Morons,' 'The Little Black Bag,' 'Two Dooms.'

John Campbell: 'Who Goes There?'

Larry Niven: Lots of stories. 'Inconstant Moon,' 'Cloak of Anarchy,' 'Neutron Star,' 'What Good is a Glass Dagger?', 'At the Core', 'All the Myriad Ways,' etc.

Jack Vance: 'Maizran the Magician'

Judith Tarr: 'Death and the Lady,' 'Roncesvalles,' 'Classical Horses,' 'Dame a la Licorne'

Stephen R. Donaldson: 'Daughter of Regals,' 'Mythological Beast,' 'Reave the Just,' 'The Djinn who Watches Over the Accursed,' 'The Killing Stroke,' 'The King of Tarshish Shall Come Bearing Gifts', 'The Lady in White,' 'Ser Visal's Tale'

Alfred Bester: 'Fondly Farenheit,' 'The Pi Man,' 'Four-Hour Fugue,' 'The Man who Murdered Mohammed,' 'Time is the Traitor,' 'Adam and No eve,' 'Disappearing Act,' 'Star Light, Star Bright'

And plenty more, if I scrape my brain enough. There's some really wonderful short stories out there.

Kristin
User ID: 0610144 Mar 31st 6:57 PM
I loved Even the Queen. Ironically enough, I picked the perfect week to read it.

Some of my favorite short stories/novellas:
In the Mountains of Mourning, by Bujold
The Specialist's Hat, by Kelly Link
On Edge, by Christopher Fowler (that one's horror, indeed)
Anything by Charles deLint (well, most of it anyhow) or Michael Marshall Smith

Uhoh, I can't think of any more right now. I'll drag out the anthologies tonight and see what else I can come up with.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Apr 1st 5:40 AM
Ran - I read In his bootsteps by Heinlein, and I was not impressed. It was one of these stroies that did not age well. It was as obvious as it was unlikely. And there wasn't a real story anyway.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 1st 10:21 AM
'Galley Slave' was a pretty thin story too. ;) 'By his Bootstraps' was meant to be obvious from the start -- the title alone gives it away -- but I was amused by how well Heinlein worked several timestreams together into a headache-causing knot.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Apr 1st 3:23 PM
I didn't think Galley Slave was thin. I loved how At the end - Spoiler allert - it turns out that the Robot was going to speak in favour of the Professor. The Suzan Calwin stories are the most psychologically striking tales Asimov wrote. Almost all of them involve her monipulation of humans('Risk' is the most striking example), and occasionally we see monipulations by others(Evidence, Toni), or even Calwin being monipulated, usually by Robots(Liar, Lennie).
I thought Bootstraps didn't work. I never understood why he kept on saying the same things, why he didn't learn from his mistakes, why he couldn't figure out what was going on, etc.

But, that's just my own humble opinion. I'm a very little Heinlein fan.
Still, compate Bootstraps, to Asimov's Time Traveling Masterpiece, The End of Eternity, for the way in which Time Travel tales should be written. Its my favoirte all time Time Travel story.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 1st 4:24 PM
As I said, enjoy quite a lot of the robot stories. I think "Feminine Intuition" and "Liar" would be my two favorites of the ones which feature Calvin (a handful don't have her appear at all.)

I've read _The End of Eternity_. Never been of particular interest to me, and I don't think its depiction of time travel is particularly interesting. My favorite time travel story from Asimov would be, I think, "The Red Queen's Race."

My favorite time travel story is probably Bradbury's "A Sound of Thunder", if one wants a science fictional approach to it.

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 Apr 1st 9:50 PM
Anyone here read "The Forge of God", I think by Greg Bear. I really liked it, and the sequal was very good as well.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Apr 2nd 7:02 AM
I haven't read The Red Queen's Race. Never even heard of it. Do you know where I can find it?

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