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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Manga

Next 20 Messages

Icura
User ID: 2609274 Sep 2nd 3:25 AM
Every time a read from "a song of ice ad fire" I get the sense than I am reading a script for a truely fantasitic manga movie. nearly every char plays a role which is particular to a manga story. Even the way mature (sex/violence/language) is used. (of course without the japanese theme and instead a more eastern europe approch.)

am I the only one?

haaruk Sep 5th 10:16 AM
What's a Manga? I know what a Mango is but what's a Manga? Something with a medieval japanese setting?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 5th 11:46 AM
Well ... technically, my understanding is that manga is the collective term for Japanese comic books and the like.

Anime would be Japanese animation. I suspect Icura was suggesting that an animated film be made using Japanese animators and the like.

I'm no real expert, however.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 5th 12:01 PM
But right, nevertheless, Ran. Manga is the term for a specific sort of Japanese comics. They all have in common that they are painted in a similar way (you know, these figures with the huge eyes... :-)) and that they are quite brutal and... well, quick seems to be the right words. To me, they are comparable to some modern films or videa clips with extremely short cuts and flashing pictures... it's hard to describe, though.
Perhaps Ikura could do it better... surely he could.

Icura Sep 6th 1:09 AM
Hi, thanks for your responces.
Manga is a company that makes japanese movies and originaly started in Comic Books.
The movie cartoons are extreamply violent, sadistic and portrays the darker sides of humanity that most people avoid. This is like the ice and fire series. Ice is good and Fire is bad, setting up a world, like Manga with obvious contrast of good and evil.
The story starts of like most fantasy stories with the happy family having a good time set in the contrast of the beheading of the traitor.
Unlike Lord of the Rings, it does not follow though with unrealistic feel good themes.

I point out also, that george was a great fan of comic books of a chid and I can see how this has leaked into his stories, as Blade Runner was an evolution to the Film Noir Gener it is obvious to me that Ice and Fire (Ying Yang) is an extension to the Magna or Anime.

Blade Runner was hidded as it was not b&w and was set in the furture; while Ice and Fire is set in a non-japanese world and has no animation (no large eyes)

I suggest to anyone that has not seen Manga movies, and have enjoyed Ice and Fire to sample a few, and just hope you have the stomach to watch what some of the more horrific parts of Ice and Fire would be like a a movie. ;)

haaruk Sep 7th 9:09 AM
I've done a little research on manga. The violent aspects seem egregious. Lacking functionality from a broad prospective. This of course may be personal prejudice and enlightenment is necessary. Nonetheless the polarity invested in diagramming human interactions seem decidedly unbalanced. I may need more examples. I do believe where Tolkien is concerned his dark side was manifested in the Silmarillion. The Hobbit was initially done for children. The essence of Manga seems functionally adult. There are probably cultural subtleties that shadow my judgement.

Icura, do you actually believe that the term 'Ice and Fire" symbolize respectively 'Good and Bad'?

Icura Sep 8th 1:20 AM
As an Australian, we are lucky enough to be infulanced by the japanese culture. It was true that George was a big fan of comic books when he was young, and to me his story seems very manga style. Ice and fire, good and bad, love and hate, order and chaos. This is what the title of the book is refering to. the two ends of the scale that appears in all cultures, I just found it very comman with the japanese ying yang, in most manga.

Also while some manga movies are made to grip you with a compelling story, their are some that are just their to show lots of violence and nudity; which are really just shouting out "you can not do that with a camara!" but manga has its problems just like Dyisney. Did you know in the original pinociho book, Pinociho kills Jimmany-Cricket. where Dyisney changes to meet the appeal of children, Manga movies sometimes, try to meet the appeal of the avarage adult.
You must also remember that movies are much less emotional or involving as books. If you remember any of those books made into movies, they were all extreamly long and copletely belittled the original book.

If you think about it Ice and Fire is in a genre of its own. It is a kind of dark fantasy without the elves and the completely radicle, demigods and destinies.

anyway if you want a good manga, you'll have to dodge the mainstream ones, Ninja scroll is the only great one I can think of, but their are much more, and some are very anti-american.

by the way I am half way though the last book of the Lord of the rings.

haaruk Sep 10th 9:17 AM
I envy your experiencing Tolkien's world for the first time. I guess your right in the sense of the yin/yang paralell for ice and fire. Martin's masterpiece though seems to revel in the limitless shades of gray between the two entities rather than adjusting for absolutes. Which the Lord of the Rings does so precisely. Middle Earth seemed functionally extreme. Done a little more reading of Manga. Seems that Tolkiens world might be a better fit. Has the genre ever embraced or interpreted Middle Earth?

Watcher
User ID: 7761613 Sep 10th 12:35 PM
I going to agree with haaruk on this. I like ASoIaF because the main characters are grey in a moral sense. I don't see the Manga relationship, but I have developed a pretty low view of that genre after following it for a couple of years.

One thing you might not know Icura is that Manga only started to gain popularity in the States in the late 80's/early 90's. Unless Martin read comic books into his adult years (like I did) he would have had minimal exposure to that style. OTOH American comics also show good vs. bad in well, umm... a bad comic bookish way, very very black and white.

haaruk (or anyone) have you read the Gaimen's Sandman series? I would like to know your opinion of that. BTW, your original description of Manga seems accurate to me.

Icura Sep 11th 2:23 AM
I agree, that lord of the rings does use the technique of shading the black and white of morality, but it does not really implement in the same way george does. This to me is the failing of the lord of the rings.
Goerge, creats this masterpeice cause, he creates each charictor perfectly in the true style of fantasy and than jerks their image back sudenly. Sensa is the perfect example, the pricess who dreams of marrage, with a prince charming; I need not explain on how George tainted this stereo-type.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the charictors are fairly much the same, built on the very foundations of the fantasy stereo-type; And why not, Tolkein, did create the genre'.
Georges twisting of a stereo-type is a comman use of the certain Magan movies. but the watcher is right, finding a good manga movies is difficult and cause the majority of them are unsoffisticated, I was just lucky enough to be introduced to the Manga scene by a cult fan, so I got to see all the good ones.
I think in the terms of books the Seers Trilogy, would be a better example than the LOTR.

Also, I'm starting to feel annoyed with those of us who compare fire and ice to the wheel of time; where it just takes to long fro each book to be released. I feel that if a book is released that is as magnificent as Ice and Fire it should takes years to make, I would wait a decade for any book of this quality.
I'd like to point you to the book Dragon Charm which was a fairly good book, but with the next two of the trilogy; the story was steaply degradent. This is what happens when stories are rushed.
Good reading to you all; I "have" to finish the last book to the Malloreon.

Rebecca
User ID: 0303694 Sep 14th 12:24 PM
Icura, I have to disagree with you. Tolkien did not create the fantasy genre, he made "epic fantasy" popular again. You need to ask yourself what exactly is epic fantasy? The answer is mythology. That is what Tolkien did. He created his own mythological world using mythological themes and arch-types that have been around for millenia. It's these arch-types that are your "stereotypes".

Also, ASoIaF is not a genre unto itself, it's part of the sub-genre termed "Historical Fantasy", started in large part by Katherine Kurtz in the early 70s, although Martin's work has more mythological overtones than any of Katherine's work does.

haaruk Sep 17th 9:34 AM
Yes Watcher, I am familiar but not learned of Gaiman's creation. I became aware of him about the late eighties. Graphical and interesting but the timing was wrong for me. I have borrowed a Anthology of short stories edited by Gaiman specifically relating to the Sandman series. I will begin reading it as soon as I have time.

Icura Sep 20th 0:11 AM
Interesting,�I knew Tolkien took most of his monsters from Scandanavian Mytholigy but I thought Fantasy was a more advanced form of early Folk Lore�You have given me something to think about, but I disagree that SoIaF is historical Fantasy, I think the overtones make it something diffrent, but thats just my humble opinion.

haaruk Sep 24th 5:34 PM
I thought that historical fantasy dealt specifically to fictional fantasy events in our own past. Martin's world could be parallel to our past, present or future. There is no time reference available to make that distinction. The events in ASOIF could be happening in another solar system, galaxy, dimension, etc. Without a reference it can not be considered by any calculation to be 'historical'.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 25th 11:54 AM
I think that GRRM's work is exceptional because its shades of gray. There is nearly no characters clearly good or evil, whereas in Mangas, the good and evil are strongly separated.

The perception of good struggling evil is the basic in mythology, manga, fantasy alike. That's nothing new. Martin, though he describes this struggle, too, refuses to have black and white, yin and yang, if you want, separated so clearly.

Watcher, I love Neil Gaiman, or I loved his early graphic novels. His perception, imho, resembles MArtin's work more than mangas do. For in Gaiman's series, good and evil melt together constantly. Did you read his novel Netherland? I thought this pretty good, too.

haaruk Sep 25th 8:16 PM
Martin dances with chaos Min. Then he pirouettes and leads order in a waltz. I do believe in his books that there are definite divisions between good and evil. Instances of moral impressions. It is the morality function that is most consistent. Predicated on point of view rather than man made law. Law and morality. Natural law in relation to man made law. Natural law, immutable and consistent.

Watcher, I have read a few stories in the "Sandman Book of Dreams" short story compilation. One of them "Chain Home, Low" by John Ford is wonderful. It is a worth while read.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 26th 5:35 AM
haaruk, Martin has clear definitions of good and evil. He has no clearly good and evil characters, though.

haaruk Sep 26th 9:35 AM
Except perhaps for Robb. He seems to embody the best of both Catelyn and Eddard. Too perfect to live? His mistakes are not based on pettiness or indulgence. Perhaps trust is an impediment in the realm of chaos.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 26th 10:08 AM
Yes, you are right about Rob. I do not think he will live long, though.
On the evil side, we could put Melisandre and Gregor, too, though Melisandre could show far more depths in the future. I would not even be astonished by George Martin starting to explain Gregor's actions, so..

cgob
User ID: 0053014 Sep 26th 3:48 PM
I am going to bring the topic back to manga thought the previous discussions are quite interesting in themselves.
Having followed "manga" for quite a while myself (though I prefer the term japanimation)I can see some of the comparisons that Icura makes and have to agree that it would make quite the series or movies especially if someone could convince the animators to ease up on the "eye proportion to head proportion."
The Japanese and the cultures that follow this style of story telling seem to be based on a different set of mores that western thinking is accustomed to i.e the gratuitious use of sex and violence in a "comic book" form. This is what appeals to most viewers/readers of the form. Hence movies/books like "ninja scroll" and "ghost in the shell" with intricate plots and incredible attention to detail are coupled with the shock value of naked children/young women and body parts flying in all directions.
This fascination with "adult cartoons/books" can be seen in aSoIaF as here we have an epic in the telling intertwined with Martin's graphic descriptions concerning sex and decapitation. Western culture especially has a morbid fascination with these topics and I feel that this is one of the reasons that make aSoIaF what it is. After all, if everything was fine and dandy with no incest/rape/beheadings what would drive the characters to do anything at all? Tolkien himself shaded these "immoral actions" yet they were present if read betweeen the lines.
Most if not all have read in part of Tolkien's Middle earth and it is this basis that most fantsy writers venture into when they themselves create worlds and cultures for their readers. There is no escaping this comparison as Tolkien set the tone many years ago and we (and I assume that most of us were NOT born before his publishing)cannot but help but to draw them, wanted or not. I have yet to read a fantasy epic that does not have comparable aspects to Tolkien, however samll they might be.
With this in mind, a graphic novel/movie of aSoIaF done in a series format would truly be a spectacle to watch. Though no one character seems to embodie either pure good or evil, japanimation surely would be the best format given the restraints that western film making has with the issues displayed in aSoIaF. Where else could one see Dany's handmaids "annoint her sex" or Bran watch his aunt or uncle "seem to fight" both intregel to plot structure.
Well, I guess I might have strayed off the topic but I hope that it made semi-interesting reading. Thanks for your time and I eagerly await response from this topic and the many other fascinating others that I have found on this board.

Next 20 Messages

Icura User ID: 2609274	Sep 2nd 3:25 AM Every time a read from "a song of ice ad fire" I get the sense than I am reading a script for a truely fantasitic manga movie. nearly every char plays a role which is particular to a manga story. Even the way mature (sex/violence/language) is used. (of course without the japanese theme and instead a more eastern europe approch.) am I the only one?
haaruk	Sep 5th 10:16 AM What's a Manga? I know what a Mango is but what's a Manga? Something with a medieval japanese setting?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 5th 11:46 AM Well ... technically, my understanding is that manga is the collective term for Japanese comic books and the like. Anime would be Japanese animation. I suspect Icura was suggesting that an animated film be made using Japanese animators and the like. I'm no real expert, however.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 5th 12:01 PM But right, nevertheless, Ran. Manga is the term for a specific sort of Japanese comics. They all have in common that they are painted in a similar way (you know, these figures with the huge eyes... :-)) and that they are quite brutal and... well, quick seems to be the right words. To me, they are comparable to some modern films or videa clips with extremely short cuts and flashing pictures... it's hard to describe, though. Perhaps Ikura could do it better... surely he could.
Icura	Sep 6th 1:09 AM Hi, thanks for your responces. Manga is a company that makes japanese movies and originaly started in Comic Books. The movie cartoons are extreamply violent, sadistic and portrays the darker sides of humanity that most people avoid. This is like the ice and fire series. Ice is good and Fire is bad, setting up a world, like Manga with obvious contrast of good and evil. The story starts of like most fantasy stories with the happy family having a good time set in the contrast of the beheading of the traitor. Unlike Lord of the Rings, it does not follow though with unrealistic feel good themes. I point out also, that george was a great fan of comic books of a chid and I can see how this has leaked into his stories, as Blade Runner was an evolution to the Film Noir Gener it is obvious to me that Ice and Fire (Ying Yang) is an extension to the Magna or Anime. Blade Runner was hidded as it was not b&w and was set in the furture; while Ice and Fire is set in a non-japanese world and has no animation (no large eyes) I suggest to anyone that has not seen Manga movies, and have enjoyed Ice and Fire to sample a few, and just hope you have the stomach to watch what some of the more horrific parts of Ice and Fire would be like a a movie. ;)
haaruk	Sep 7th 9:09 AM I've done a little research on manga. The violent aspects seem egregious. Lacking functionality from a broad prospective. This of course may be personal prejudice and enlightenment is necessary. Nonetheless the polarity invested in diagramming human interactions seem decidedly unbalanced. I may need more examples. I do believe where Tolkien is concerned his dark side was manifested in the Silmarillion. The Hobbit was initially done for children. The essence of Manga seems functionally adult. There are probably cultural subtleties that shadow my judgement. Icura, do you actually believe that the term 'Ice and Fire" symbolize respectively 'Good and Bad'?
Icura	Sep 8th 1:20 AM As an Australian, we are lucky enough to be infulanced by the japanese culture. It was true that George was a big fan of comic books when he was young, and to me his story seems very manga style. Ice and fire, good and bad, love and hate, order and chaos. This is what the title of the book is refering to. the two ends of the scale that appears in all cultures, I just found it very comman with the japanese ying yang, in most manga. Also while some manga movies are made to grip you with a compelling story, their are some that are just their to show lots of violence and nudity; which are really just shouting out "you can not do that with a camara!" but manga has its problems just like Dyisney. Did you know in the original pinociho book, Pinociho kills Jimmany-Cricket. where Dyisney changes to meet the appeal of children, Manga movies sometimes, try to meet the appeal of the avarage adult. You must also remember that movies are much less emotional or involving as books. If you remember any of those books made into movies, they were all extreamly long and copletely belittled the original book. If you think about it Ice and Fire is in a genre of its own. It is a kind of dark fantasy without the elves and the completely radicle, demigods and destinies. anyway if you want a good manga, you'll have to dodge the mainstream ones, Ninja scroll is the only great one I can think of, but their are much more, and some are very anti-american. by the way I am half way though the last book of the Lord of the rings.
haaruk	Sep 10th 9:17 AM I envy your experiencing Tolkien's world for the first time. I guess your right in the sense of the yin/yang paralell for ice and fire. Martin's masterpiece though seems to revel in the limitless shades of gray between the two entities rather than adjusting for absolutes. Which the Lord of the Rings does so precisely. Middle Earth seemed functionally extreme. Done a little more reading of Manga. Seems that Tolkiens world might be a better fit. Has the genre ever embraced or interpreted Middle Earth?
Watcher User ID: 7761613	Sep 10th 12:35 PM I going to agree with haaruk on this. I like ASoIaF because the main characters are grey in a moral sense. I don't see the Manga relationship, but I have developed a pretty low view of that genre after following it for a couple of years. One thing you might not know Icura is that Manga only started to gain popularity in the States in the late 80's/early 90's. Unless Martin read comic books into his adult years (like I did) he would have had minimal exposure to that style. OTOH American comics also show good vs. bad in well, umm... a bad comic bookish way, very very black and white. haaruk (or anyone) have you read the Gaimen's Sandman series? I would like to know your opinion of that. BTW, your original description of Manga seems accurate to me.
Icura	Sep 11th 2:23 AM I agree, that lord of the rings does use the technique of shading the black and white of morality, but it does not really implement in the same way george does. This to me is the failing of the lord of the rings. Goerge, creats this masterpeice cause, he creates each charictor perfectly in the true style of fantasy and than jerks their image back sudenly. Sensa is the perfect example, the pricess who dreams of marrage, with a prince charming; I need not explain on how George tainted this stereo-type. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the charictors are fairly much the same, built on the very foundations of the fantasy stereo-type; And why not, Tolkein, did create the genre'. Georges twisting of a stereo-type is a comman use of the certain Magan movies. but the watcher is right, finding a good manga movies is difficult and cause the majority of them are unsoffisticated, I was just lucky enough to be introduced to the Manga scene by a cult fan, so I got to see all the good ones. I think in the terms of books the Seers Trilogy, would be a better example than the LOTR. Also, I'm starting to feel annoyed with those of us who compare fire and ice to the wheel of time; where it just takes to long fro each book to be released. I feel that if a book is released that is as magnificent as Ice and Fire it should takes years to make, I would wait a decade for any book of this quality. I'd like to point you to the book Dragon Charm which was a fairly good book, but with the next two of the trilogy; the story was steaply degradent. This is what happens when stories are rushed. Good reading to you all; I "have" to finish the last book to the Malloreon.
Rebecca User ID: 0303694	Sep 14th 12:24 PM Icura, I have to disagree with you. Tolkien did not create the fantasy genre, he made "epic fantasy" popular again. You need to ask yourself what exactly is epic fantasy? The answer is mythology. That is what Tolkien did. He created his own mythological world using mythological themes and arch-types that have been around for millenia. It's these arch-types that are your "stereotypes". Also, ASoIaF is not a genre unto itself, it's part of the sub-genre termed "Historical Fantasy", started in large part by Katherine Kurtz in the early 70s, although Martin's work has more mythological overtones than any of Katherine's work does.
haaruk	Sep 17th 9:34 AM Yes Watcher, I am familiar but not learned of Gaiman's creation. I became aware of him about the late eighties. Graphical and interesting but the timing was wrong for me. I have borrowed a Anthology of short stories edited by Gaiman specifically relating to the Sandman series. I will begin reading it as soon as I have time.
Icura	Sep 20th 0:11 AM Interesting,�I knew Tolkien took most of his monsters from Scandanavian Mytholigy but I thought Fantasy was a more advanced form of early Folk Lore�You have given me something to think about, but I disagree that SoIaF is historical Fantasy, I think the overtones make it something diffrent, but thats just my humble opinion.
haaruk	Sep 24th 5:34 PM I thought that historical fantasy dealt specifically to fictional fantasy events in our own past. Martin's world could be parallel to our past, present or future. There is no time reference available to make that distinction. The events in ASOIF could be happening in another solar system, galaxy, dimension, etc. Without a reference it can not be considered by any calculation to be 'historical'.
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 25th 11:54 AM I think that GRRM's work is exceptional because its shades of gray. There is nearly no characters clearly good or evil, whereas in Mangas, the good and evil are strongly separated. The perception of good struggling evil is the basic in mythology, manga, fantasy alike. That's nothing new. Martin, though he describes this struggle, too, refuses to have black and white, yin and yang, if you want, separated so clearly. Watcher, I love Neil Gaiman, or I loved his early graphic novels. His perception, imho, resembles MArtin's work more than mangas do. For in Gaiman's series, good and evil melt together constantly. Did you read his novel Netherland? I thought this pretty good, too.
haaruk	Sep 25th 8:16 PM Martin dances with chaos Min. Then he pirouettes and leads order in a waltz. I do believe in his books that there are definite divisions between good and evil. Instances of moral impressions. It is the morality function that is most consistent. Predicated on point of view rather than man made law. Law and morality. Natural law in relation to man made law. Natural law, immutable and consistent. Watcher, I have read a few stories in the "Sandman Book of Dreams" short story compilation. One of them "Chain Home, Low" by John Ford is wonderful. It is a worth while read.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 26th 5:35 AM haaruk, Martin has clear definitions of good and evil. He has no clearly good and evil characters, though.
haaruk	Sep 26th 9:35 AM Except perhaps for Robb. He seems to embody the best of both Catelyn and Eddard. Too perfect to live? His mistakes are not based on pettiness or indulgence. Perhaps trust is an impediment in the realm of chaos.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 26th 10:08 AM Yes, you are right about Rob. I do not think he will live long, though. On the evil side, we could put Melisandre and Gregor, too, though Melisandre could show far more depths in the future. I would not even be astonished by George Martin starting to explain Gregor's actions, so..
cgob User ID: 0053014	Sep 26th 3:48 PM I am going to bring the topic back to manga thought the previous discussions are quite interesting in themselves. Having followed "manga" for quite a while myself (though I prefer the term japanimation)I can see some of the comparisons that Icura makes and have to agree that it would make quite the series or movies especially if someone could convince the animators to ease up on the "eye proportion to head proportion." The Japanese and the cultures that follow this style of story telling seem to be based on a different set of mores that western thinking is accustomed to i.e the gratuitious use of sex and violence in a "comic book" form. This is what appeals to most viewers/readers of the form. Hence movies/books like "ninja scroll" and "ghost in the shell" with intricate plots and incredible attention to detail are coupled with the shock value of naked children/young women and body parts flying in all directions. This fascination with "adult cartoons/books" can be seen in aSoIaF as here we have an epic in the telling intertwined with Martin's graphic descriptions concerning sex and decapitation. Western culture especially has a morbid fascination with these topics and I feel that this is one of the reasons that make aSoIaF what it is. After all, if everything was fine and dandy with no incest/rape/beheadings what would drive the characters to do anything at all? Tolkien himself shaded these "immoral actions" yet they were present if read betweeen the lines. Most if not all have read in part of Tolkien's Middle earth and it is this basis that most fantsy writers venture into when they themselves create worlds and cultures for their readers. There is no escaping this comparison as Tolkien set the tone many years ago and we (and I assume that most of us were NOT born before his publishing)cannot but help but to draw them, wanted or not. I have yet to read a fantasy epic that does not have comparable aspects to Tolkien, however samll they might be. With this in mind, a graphic novel/movie of aSoIaF done in a series format would truly be a spectacle to watch. Though no one character seems to embodie either pure good or evil, japanimation surely would be the best format given the restraints that western film making has with the issues displayed in aSoIaF. Where else could one see Dany's handmaids "annoint her sex" or Bran watch his aunt or uncle "seem to fight" both intregel to plot structure. Well, I guess I might have strayed off the topic but I hope that it made semi-interesting reading. Thanks for your time and I eagerly await response from this topic and the many other fascinating others that I have found on this board.