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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / The Religion Wars, II

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Omer
User ID: 0631424 		Sep 9th 6:07 AM
OK, it's mostly atheists vs theists, and almost everyone Vs. creationists, at least so far.

I've made some insulting statements and people were nice enough not to start a flaming war about them, and for that I'm grateful
tex
User ID: 1808544 		Sep 9th 8:22 PM
the idea of religion started as a necessity to civilize or control people and as a result offers power to the wielder. as most can tell you, power corrupts. this is not to say that all will be corrupted but there will be those who use (or should I say abuse) the power of religion. now days people like to say spiritual "I am very spiritual" or "I am a spritiual christian" (or maybe its just me hearing that). so needless to say religion has created some bad connotations. use whatever word you like just be sure to define it for everyone else in order to avoid complications.

as far as the evolution education. it appears that this is a paradigm shift for those people who choose a different path. for those of us who choose different paths then we must follow either our hearts or our minds (if of course you agree we have a mind/soul). I think it is sad but what can I do. they do not believe as I do and would only try and convert me. I preferably want all the facts so I can make a decision myself. But, What are the odds?
Rebecca
User ID: 0303694 		Sep 14th 1:17 PM
I find I need to refer all of those you don't think evolution is anything more than a "theory" or that "creationism" is a valid alternative theory that should be taught in schools to the following website.

books.nap.edu/html/creationism

at this site you'll find a report published by the National Academy of Sciences, written by many different scientists about evolution--why it is more than just a theory. I especially recommend it to those on the board whose high school education was woefully lacking.
Omer
User ID: 1523284 		Sep 15th 6:49 AM
OK, one thing about atheism - it will NEVER promote anything like creationism. So I think we're one step ahead
Jeff
User ID: 0227464 		Sep 15th 8:45 AM
Tex, how did you determine that "the idea of religion was started as a necessity to civilize or control people"? I always assumed religion began as a way for primitive people to explain the unexplained. I suppose Marx would agree with you but I really don't see any support for your statement. The fact that religion may have been used by some to civilize or control others is undisputable, but that's far different from stating that the "idea of religion" was "started" with that result in mind.
Kevin
User ID: 9551723 		Sep 15th 10:30 AM
The school of 'rational' I'll only believe what I can prove with my five senses thought has provided and pushed it's fair share of false ideas.

The earth is flat and the earth is the center of the universe are two examples. There are many other examples of ignoring intuition to follow strictly logic.

If you take emotion and intuition to an extreme and apply it to your life, you are going to be living under some false assumptions. The same is true for logic.

Logic and intuition are a necessary pair. Both are ok by themselves but much more powerful together.

Omer - The very definition of atheism is to deny the existance of a higher power. When you found a belief system on disbelief, its hard to promote anything. I don't mean that as a slam please listen.

There is a difference between being an atheist (disbelief of higher power) and a theist (belief in higher power) and say a rationalist (belief in rational thought). An atheist might use logic/science as an argument to support their disbelief. A rationalist might or might not come to the conclusion that there is a higher power but that is not the point. Their primary belief system is strictly logic.
Omer
User ID: 0485244 		Sep 15th 11:06 AM
Kevin - as usual I disagree but I 'll get to that later.

Right now I'm pissed.

The Baptist church in the US( I hope I spelled that right) has called for people to pray that the jews will convert.

This really pisses me off. It's contains an air of superiority that's bad enough, but if those sons of bitches were to learn from history, especially given the recent attacks n jewish and other minority groups in the US, this is fucken dangerous!

We're in the end of the twentieth century, and christian leaders still act like we're in the fourteenth. what's the fuck is wrong with these people?

OK. Kev. I just don't get your point.
Obviously atheism won't promote anything, cause it's not a religioun. But atheist people won't prommote creationism, while theists might. So all other things staying the same, this is an edge for atheism.

About the 'common sense' thing. Well, that defines on how you define common sense. If you believe only what the evidence call for, you will not believe the earth is flat when there's evidence to the contrary.

Stron emotional belief in any idea, whether it's sreligioun or other, might bring you to ignore evidence in favor of dogma, as the Roman Catholic Church has done, and as the Nazies and Soviets have done, and as the creationists do.
Rebecca
User ID: 0303694 		Sep 15th 11:56 AM
Omer, take a deep breath and calm down. Pay no mind to those idiots who spout such nonsense. No one else does.
Jeff
User ID: 0227464 		Sep 15th 11:58 AM
Omer, I really can't understand what you're so upset about. Virtually all religions hope for the conversion of others to their beliefs. Why shouldn't they? If they believe that they are correct, it would be morally wrong for them not to try to persuade others to adopt their beliefs.

I gather from your post that the Southern Baptists have asked jews to convert. So what? As long as that call for conversion isn't accompanied by an attack against Judaism and Jews, I don't really see a problem.
KAH
User ID: 9209903 		Sep 15th 12:27 PM
Jeff;

No, it's not a problem in itself, but it's the first stepping stone to a potential problem.

As you say, people really believing in an religion would be morally wrong not to try persuade others to adopt their beliefs.
In fact, considering the supposed stakes in this type of questions ('you believe in the wrong things, you'll burn in hell for eternity'), much more severe measures could be justifiably taken. After all, what is life on this planet against Paradise?
Why should people be allowed to make the wrong choice?

Some places this have been taken to the extreme; the most obvious example being Algeria, where the fanatical guerrilla group GIA (or some commanders in it, anyway) advocates killing babies, because it is better that they don't get to grow up and be corrupted in a country which do not follow Sharia.

You could say (and justifiable so) that these two are not comparable at all, but as I said, it's not a problem in itself, just a stepping stone. After all, the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

Maybe I'm giving these things way too much significance...I don't know. It's just that I know of too many religious people that freak me out, and know of too many people who listens to them completely uncritically.



One thing I'm curious about - Omer stated that they called for people to pray that _jews_ would convert. Were they singled out as a group, or just mentioned along with a lot of others? If the former, was there given any info why jews were singled out?
Kevin
User ID: 9551723 		Sep 15th 12:45 PM
Omer my point is that atheists are as likely to support ideas that will prove to be false as anyone else. Someone who believed that the earth was flat before it was proven to be round would be relying on logic and rational thought to reach that decision but would be wrong.

Do I believe in the strict creationist view? No. Am I superior because I don't? No. Am I right? Probably.

You have accused myself (and I was) and the Baptists of acting superior, "It's contains an air of superiority that's bad enough". Yet in the same post, you try to establish that atheists are superior, "this is an edge for atheism". Please tell me, is feeling superior to be condemmed or not?

You believe that you hold the correct view of things by being an atheist right. You on this board are trying to convince others on this board that you have the view right. Until you start saying, "harm a christian" nothing you say is dangerous. How is that different than what the Baptist's are doing? Is it because it involves PRAYER???

I'm not going to let you get away with comparing christians to nazies without some supporting evidence. Please back it up or retract it.
Watcher
User ID: 7761613 		Sep 15th 1:10 PM
>>I'm not going to let you get away with comparing Christians to nazis without some supporting evidence. Please back it up or retract it. <<

The Crusades, The Inquisition, The Thirty Year war, the Klu Klux Klan and the current Christian Identity movement.

The prayer thing: Jews were separated out. I agree with KAH that this _could_ be a stepping stone to greater intolerance.

Tex: could you explain your second paragraph. I'm not sure to which "different path" you are referring to.

Tex
User ID: 1808544 		Sep 15th 1:40 PM
I will be happy to oblige as best I can.

first question:
("the idea of religion was started as a necessity to civilize or control people")

when nomads began to settle and become hunter gatherers, they created a social and political structure that demanded each one observe a set of rules or laws. now I am certain that not all religions have been started in this fashion. some propose to be in search of the "higher truth". when the people in charge did not have a way of controlling the mass population (either for the good of all or the few) it was necessary to have a higher being that could not only explaing the unexplained but also who could punish those who did not believe or follow the rules. it may seem that it was the idea because if a being that was powerful enough to split the earth per say, then he could punish those that fell outside the lines of "normalcy". so it truly may not have started that way (I do apologize) but the necessity was quickly realized and is still often exploited today.

second question:
(Tex: could you explain your second paragraph. I'm not sure to which "different path" you are referring to.)


the different paths are simply what we will believe based on facts emotions thoughts etc.
if we follow the path of evolution then we arrived at that path because of what we were told or learned on our own. some have chosen to follow the path of creationism based on what they know. whether or not it is the right path or not I can not truly say. just that I am not on that path.

Kevin
User ID: 9551723 		Sep 15th 1:58 PM
Using those examples, all Germans hate jews, commit genocide and want to rule the world. There are groups that call themselves christian that do very bad things but maybe we should be careful about convicting the whole of christianity. Yes KAH, there are people who call themselves christian that scare me to. Yes it could be a stepping stone and should be watched but I think freaking out about it at this point is a little extreme.

I admit, I'm getting angry at the double standard that is being applied. Christians act superior. Christians are intolerant. Christians want to rule the world. Christians are either puppets, stupid or want power. People on this board freak out when the Baptist sterotype the Jews (rightfully so) but have no problem saying, "christians...". I know that Omer would blast me if I said, "Atheists have no moral compass and therefore tend to be dangerous."

If I was the stereotypical christian as portrayed on this board, my name would be bubba. I would be a member of the KKK and the Neo-Nazi's. I would never have graduated from high school. I would be trying to use my will and dogma to control other stupid people. I would beat the crap out of anyone who didn't believe like I do because I am of course better than they are. I would be against any form of rational thought. Science, forget about it. Oh, I almost forgot, I would probably molest children and beat my dog.

Man there are some screwed up views of what christianity is all about.

I recognize that this is a board about religion and as such christianity is a main topic but let's be careful about laying all of mankind's faults at the foot of religion.

Sorry bout the rant.
High Septon
User ID: 1808544 		Sep 15th 2:23 PM
I know the need for a greater understanding. sometimes we must accept that there are things that we do not and can not know. it can even be considered a blasphemy to try and attain the higher understanding that we were not meant to have. if god wanted us to know then he would show it to us in his own way. we are simply a smaller circle of understanding inside his infinite circle of knowing. when the time is right he will expand our circle.

it is for our own good that he does the things and we should be greatful and obey his wishes. if we try to break out of our smaller circle then we do god injustice and that by any definition is morally and ethically wrong.

I will not say that any of you will go to hell or die a horrible death. I would not wish that on anybody. but you will only drive yourselfs crazy trying to understand something that you are not ready for.
Jeff
User ID: 0227464 		Sep 15th 2:23 PM
This has heated up quite nicely again....

Kay-Arne, the fact that innocent prayer "could" be a "stepping stone" to persecution isn't sufficient reason to condemn it. Buying a car might be a "stepping stone" to vehicular homicide, but that's hardly a sufficient reason to condemn those who buy cars.

Let's try atheism. What happens when that is taken to the extreme? Well, we had Marxist purges in both Russia and China that could be laid at the door of an atheistic philosophy gone nuts. Is that a reason to condemn atheism? I think its wrong to condemn any belief system simply because it is capable of being perverted and taken to excess because that condemnation would have to apply to _all_ belief systems. How about harmless environmentalism? A nut called the Unabomber used that as his philosophy to justify the sending of deadly letter bombs. Does that mean environmentalism should be condemned? I am not a religious person, but I think that ther treatment of religion in this regard has been manifestly unfair.

Watcher, you can't say religion is bad because it arguably spawned the Crusades without considering 1) all the wars that have been started for _non-religious_ reasons, and 2) the good things that religion has accomplished.

Tex, I still don't see any support for your statement regarding the origins of religion. You've admitted that "I am certain that not all religions have been started in this fashion". Where's your support for that statement? I think that the "origins" of religion go far back, beyond most recorded history, and so I don't see how you can possibly speak to that issue with any degree of authority. I consider myself fairly well-read but don't recall reading first hand accounts of the beginnings of religious thought among hunter-gatherers.

But if you want to look at more modern religions, try the origin of Christianity. Sorry, but I don't see that as a religion that was started in order to gain control over people. The early Christians were "true believers" and decidedly uninterested in the material world. The fact that Christinaity has been _used_ for that purpose by certain individuals and groups throughout history really can't be disputed, but what you're saying goes far beyond that.





Tex
User ID: 1808544 		Sep 15th 2:34 PM
sorry about that last post from the supposed High Septon???
apparently one of my roommates college buddies felt it necessary to post his oppinion with my user id but a different name while I was away feeding my face. i have flogged him according to ancient scriptures. he has hereforth been banned from my study room and will remain in exile until further notice.
thanks,
Tex
Omer
User ID: 0485244 		Sep 15th 3:18 PM
OK, I'll try to do it without offending anyone.

I'm here as a representive of my personnal opinion, which I think is right. I may try to convince others of that, but primaraly, what I do is exchange information. why I am an atheist. I'm really intrested in the legitimacy of my point. this is a debate.

What the Baptist church did, is an attack on the legitimacy of Judaism. It's not as clear as it may be, it's kinde' subtle, but it's shit dangerous. Consider that the church is a huge organization looked up to people as representives of what is true and just. When the church says something like this, what they tell people is, and I think it's obvious even to those who don't agree with me 'Our way is superior. Our way is the right way. JEWS SHOULD take our way'.

The church is a powerful organization. If I understand correctly, it is the greatest religion in the US. Bill Clinton is part of it. When the church says something like this it sends a clear message.

And then we have anti semism to consider. You have two thousand years of christian attacks on Judaism. Now I see the dillemma Judaism poses to christianity, but when the church does something like this, it's dangerous.

It's not just the first step, given that jews were singled out, it's another step in a long road of antisemism. As a jew it freaks the hell out of me, but it should freak out everyone.

Oh, also since judaism is a culture, it's a call for the destruction of Judaic culture and world, which I and almost all jews will consider bad as physical destruction is.

OK, about Christianity. Kev - did you notice you didn;t say anything about how I compared the Soviets to the Nazies? By all accounts, it's as unfair a comparison as the comparison with christianity. Because I WASN'T comparing them. All I said was, that strong beliefs in something can prevent you from looking at it objectively. OK?

Now I don't think Christianity is such a bad thing. As a rationalist, I must find all superstitions to be a negative thing in essence. Nonetheless, I think religion, any religion, is a grand force. It could be used for good or bad, and was good for good and bad.

It's impossible to know whether it did more good then bad. But one thing is sure, it did a lot of both. I think religious people have a great burdon on them - to prevent the misuse of this terrible power they have.

As for atheism, although ATHEISTS can believe in lots of things and be irrational about them, that belief will not be part of the atheism. At most, it will be a substitution to their religious believes.

Someone said marxism is an extream form of atheism. that's simply not true. While religion or nationalism can have extreams, because it's a scale, how can you be more atheists? Can you believe less on God? and how do Marxist believes correspond with those of atheists, especially as there ae so many different atheists responses.

The only thing in common to all atheists is - they don't believe in Supernatural powers

Now the Marxist leadership was atheists( but the people obviously weren't - witness the great return to religion in The former soviet union), but that was only a facet of their life. Stalin was aginst abortions - but no one will say that Marxism is the ultimate or extream 'pre-life' position.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 		Sep 15th 4:11 PM
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" was one of Marx's creeds. And it was later used by Marxists to suppress religions, violently if necessary. True, it was only one facet of their lives, but the same could be said for many Christians as well.

Marxism does contain an "extreme" element of atheism because it is anti-religious. Atheism taken to an extreme can become "anti-theism", which can be just as irrational and dangerous as religious fanaticism.

As for the Baptists, you are effectively arguing that proslyetizing is wrong because it asserts superiority and is therefore dangerous. Where's your support for the free exchange of ideas? Every debate or discussion really is an assertion that one set of ideas is "superior" to another. I believe that such debates exist within Judaism itself. The fact that someone may take a legitimate idea to an extreme is not a sufficient reason to bar discussion of that idea.



Watcher
User ID: 7761613 		Sep 15th 4:17 PM
Kevin placed a challenge about how Christianity could be compared to Nazism, and I responded. I don't think that the way the great majority of people practice Christianity (or any religion) today could be compared to accepted practices of the past. I probably should have clarified that when I originally posted.

I do have a problem with the Religious Right mixing politics and religion. I also believe they are a small minority that is politically powerful I do believe that religion has done a lot of good things as well as bad.

Of course, you are right Jeff, any philosophy can and probably has been perverted. To paraphrase Omer; I have strong beliefs Southern Baptist and their current leadership and it is hard for me to be objective about them. I included the current leadership phase because I know that not every Southern Baptist agrees with them.
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