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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Influence

Next 20 Messages

Watcher
User ID: 7761613 Sep 10th 12:29 PM
There is some speculation that Sandor thinks of Sansa as his dead sister. We know Sandor had because Ned spends exactly one line thinking of her. Flayed Man asked Mr. Martin if she was younger or older then Sandor. Martin replied he didn't know. Which lead me to wondering, "Are we influencing the story somehow?" The Sandor's sister was basically a throw away line. A whole theory was built out of it. Now that Flayed asked, will Martin now start thinking on it and flesh out the details more?

Also how much more pressure are we putting on Martin by dissecting every word he puts down?

Another thing I was thinking while trying to fall asleep, since the spoiler is probably true, would it be morally right to start bringing it up outside of the orginal post? Assuming someone didn't read that thread because they do not want to ruin the suspense. Now we know X is doing A. Would I be wrong exposing someone to something they don't want to know yet?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 10th 1:37 PM
Well, first, to be cryptic -- the spoiler thread may be going soon, should Revanshe agree. Mr. Martin is extremely displeased that this got out as it did. But, you're quite right -- a hint of something be up is fine, but outright revelation in non-protected threads .... I don't know. It's only so long that it can last, I suppose. But my position is to try and not mess things up for anyone else for as long as I can manage.

Now, as to the rest ... I have seen Mr. Martin add on detail to something when someone points out a question. I haven't seen this, specially, for what he's currently writing -- just background stuff. I also don't know how much speculation on the board makes him consider things since, after all, he avoids reading them.

On the other hand, some discussions spawn mails to Martin asking certain questions ... and, no doubt, it makes him consider the matter just a little more. Perhaps it leads him in new directions, perhaps not. I couldn't say.

Icura Sep 11th 2:29 AM
I dont think Martin minds us picking at every sentence he writes.
If our theories are right, it means he is that much more of a greater writer.
(other than he just filling in blank spots with idle conversation)

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Sep 11th 2:47 PM
I don't think he minds either, Icura. In fact, he's the one who pointed me to the Dragonstone Message Board several months ago. I believe he's honored by this sort of following (meaning us!), and the fact that he's piqued such lively and interesting discussions. Do we influence the plot? I don't know. Part of me would like to think so and another part hopes we haven't. Does that make sense?

Icura
User ID: 2609274 Sep 11th 10:26 PM
I think that makes sense, if the story that was meant to be was altered by us, because we complained that certain parts dont make sense, giving Martin less room to move around, it could turn ugly, but if our commnet help george to delever a more developed story, than that is absolutly fantastic!

haaruk Sep 12th 9:31 AM
The dissemination of Martin's rough copy of ASOS was poorly done. I mentioned in my one entry that I did not like it. It should never have been posted without asking the authors permission if only out of respect.

Relativistic principles apply to authors as well as physics. The observer becomes part of what he observes. Martin cannot help but garner ideas and perceptions from the site. How much he is influenced he may tell us some day. Or not. The premature posting of his outline is an example if an unfortunate and unusual one. In a sense we have become a part of the story.

Icura
User ID: 2700404 Sep 12th 9:57 PM
I have actually avoided all the spoilers to date and have not even heard that ASOS (the beat version ;) was bad.
But I think you are right, we'll just have to wait and see.

Watcher
User ID: 7761613 Sep 15th 4:48 PM
I think this board is another non-physics application of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The Uncertainty Principle is "The more precisely the POSITION is determined, the less precisely the MOMENTUM is known." This is in terms of sub-atomic particles. In the boards context "The more he reads these boards the less we know the original story." I can't help but believe that something minor will change that someone on this board bought up. But then will he recognize that we influenced him?

Just idle speculation until the next book comes out.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 16th 7:19 AM
Perhaps some of the things we've questioned on this board will result in GRRM providing (more?) rationale for actions he previously thought were pretty well explained. One that comes to mind with me is that fostering issue with Robert Arryn. But there are certainly other "holes" that have been identified on this board which GRRM might now feel the need to fill. Just a thought.

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Sep 16th 9:21 PM
I personally missed the spoiler and I would ask please, if you must hint around about it...clearly label is spoiler and leave spoiler space. However, I hope you will choose not to even hint about it on the board as GRRM has said he does not want it revealed.

However, one request. If the spoiler involved what Catelyn did to Jaime, please private email me at [email protected]. I must know....I must!!!!!

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 17th 8:07 AM
Sorry Linda - Jaime and Cat wasn't even mentioned in the spoilers.

haaruk Sep 17th 9:03 AM
Watcher, we seem to have an extended view of board and site mechanics. Perhaps overlapping onto the internet phenomena itself. This site(and others) has interested me from the perspective of Chaos principles. An almost 'organic' creation. An open system with innate entropic characteristics veering from equilibrium due to constant data inputs. Heisenberg would be pleased.
We may even find Schrodinger's cat (with apologies to Mr. Carrol).

Icura Sep 20th 0:20 AM
ah, the chaos theory.�The source of most of my university fusteration.....�(Talking about random generating geometric schenes here)�I think Schrodinder would be excited.�whats this got to do with SoIaF? I dont know, I just get excited when people talk about Schrodinder

Min Sep 20th 7:53 AM
I am not sure about how much Mr. Martin will or will not be influenced by what we and others mail to him. From what he wrote me, he seems to be a firm character, so I think the "danger" of him getting influenced by our weird theories is rather small.

Nevertheless. A writer is just a catalyst. Very few things come originally from the purity of the soul (if there is such), but are taken, stolen from voices, words, themes, from ideas and pictures flying around freely to take them - consciously or unconsciously. A writer will always use those (consciously or unconsciously, as I said), tear them out of the depth, catch them out of thin air, and transform them into something new and marvellous.

That is what every writer does, and what Mr. Martin does, too. So every word one of us says might - MIGHT! - transform into a new thread, into a new idea. We will never know, and most probably, Mr. Martin himself will never know.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 20th 9:20 AM
If that were to happen, if our comments did in some way influence the story even slightly, might Mr. Martin at some point in time reveal that such a thing had happenend? Is he that type of person? Ran? Anyone?

The Mob
User ID: 9209903 Sep 20th 9:41 AM
Of course Martin is influenceable...yes, even _touchable_!
In the end, every one is!

A little knee-cap rendezvous, starring 'Mr. Black & Decker'...hell, you can't imagine how accomodating people can be.

You wanna see Tyrion be the head attraction of a mummer's show? You wanna see Varys grow a new one?

It can be arranged...for the proper sum.

Just don't be disrespectful, or we'll arrange for Martin to chit-chat with Jimmy Hoffa, give over the rest of the aSoIaF series for Terry Goodkind to write, and fix you some new, solid shoes, as well as some swimming lessons.

_Capiche?_

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 21st 5:09 AM
Hm. Giving the rest of the story over to Robert Jordan to write would be worse.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 21st 7:05 AM
Hm.

I seem to recall that you _liked_ RJ's writing, Min. :o)

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 21st 8:50 AM
Oh, you should read more closely what I wrote about him. I liked him first (hence the nick...). I thought he ahd great ideas and started of powerfully.

He then lost the grip on his story, and that is the worst thing that could happen to any writer... or any story, for that matter. That's why giving the story over to RJ would be SUCH a bad idea... can you imagine what would become of ASoIaF if the writer lost the grip on the story??? Brrr.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 21st 10:40 AM
I'd still rate him above Terry Goodkind, though.

Next 20 Messages

Watcher User ID: 7761613	Sep 10th 12:29 PM There is some speculation that Sandor thinks of Sansa as his dead sister. We know Sandor had because Ned spends exactly one line thinking of her. Flayed Man asked Mr. Martin if she was younger or older then Sandor. Martin replied he didn't know. Which lead me to wondering, "Are we influencing the story somehow?" The Sandor's sister was basically a throw away line. A whole theory was built out of it. Now that Flayed asked, will Martin now start thinking on it and flesh out the details more? Also how much more pressure are we putting on Martin by dissecting every word he puts down? Another thing I was thinking while trying to fall asleep, since the spoiler is probably true, would it be morally right to start bringing it up outside of the orginal post? Assuming someone didn't read that thread because they do not want to ruin the suspense. Now we know X is doing A. Would I be wrong exposing someone to something they don't want to know yet?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 10th 1:37 PM Well, first, to be cryptic -- the spoiler thread may be going soon, should Revanshe agree. Mr. Martin is extremely displeased that this got out as it did. But, you're quite right -- a hint of something be up is fine, but outright revelation in non-protected threads .... I don't know. It's only so long that it can last, I suppose. But my position is to try and not mess things up for anyone else for as long as I can manage. Now, as to the rest ... I have seen Mr. Martin add on detail to something when someone points out a question. I haven't seen this, specially, for what he's currently writing -- just background stuff. I also don't know how much speculation on the board makes him consider things since, after all, he avoids reading them. On the other hand, some discussions spawn mails to Martin asking certain questions ... and, no doubt, it makes him consider the matter just a little more. Perhaps it leads him in new directions, perhaps not. I couldn't say.
Icura	Sep 11th 2:29 AM I dont think Martin minds us picking at every sentence he writes. If our theories are right, it means he is that much more of a greater writer. (other than he just filling in blank spots with idle conversation)
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Sep 11th 2:47 PM I don't think he minds either, Icura. In fact, he's the one who pointed me to the Dragonstone Message Board several months ago. I believe he's honored by this sort of following (meaning us!), and the fact that he's piqued such lively and interesting discussions. Do we influence the plot? I don't know. Part of me would like to think so and another part hopes we haven't. Does that make sense?
Icura User ID: 2609274	Sep 11th 10:26 PM I think that makes sense, if the story that was meant to be was altered by us, because we complained that certain parts dont make sense, giving Martin less room to move around, it could turn ugly, but if our commnet help george to delever a more developed story, than that is absolutly fantastic!
haaruk	Sep 12th 9:31 AM The dissemination of Martin's rough copy of ASOS was poorly done. I mentioned in my one entry that I did not like it. It should never have been posted without asking the authors permission if only out of respect. Relativistic principles apply to authors as well as physics. The observer becomes part of what he observes. Martin cannot help but garner ideas and perceptions from the site. How much he is influenced he may tell us some day. Or not. The premature posting of his outline is an example if an unfortunate and unusual one. In a sense we have become a part of the story.
Icura User ID: 2700404	Sep 12th 9:57 PM I have actually avoided all the spoilers to date and have not even heard that ASOS (the beat version ;) was bad. But I think you are right, we'll just have to wait and see.
Watcher User ID: 7761613	Sep 15th 4:48 PM I think this board is another non-physics application of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The Uncertainty Principle is "The more precisely the POSITION is determined, the less precisely the MOMENTUM is known." This is in terms of sub-atomic particles. In the boards context "The more he reads these boards the less we know the original story." I can't help but believe that something minor will change that someone on this board bought up. But then will he recognize that we influenced him? Just idle speculation until the next book comes out.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 16th 7:19 AM Perhaps some of the things we've questioned on this board will result in GRRM providing (more?) rationale for actions he previously thought were pretty well explained. One that comes to mind with me is that fostering issue with Robert Arryn. But there are certainly other "holes" that have been identified on this board which GRRM might now feel the need to fill. Just a thought.
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Sep 16th 9:21 PM I personally missed the spoiler and I would ask please, if you must hint around about it...clearly label is spoiler and leave spoiler space. However, I hope you will choose not to even hint about it on the board as GRRM has said he does not want it revealed. However, one request. If the spoiler involved what Catelyn did to Jaime, please private email me at [email protected]. I must know....I must!!!!!
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 17th 8:07 AM Sorry Linda - Jaime and Cat wasn't even mentioned in the spoilers.
haaruk	Sep 17th 9:03 AM Watcher, we seem to have an extended view of board and site mechanics. Perhaps overlapping onto the internet phenomena itself. This site(and others) has interested me from the perspective of Chaos principles. An almost 'organic' creation. An open system with innate entropic characteristics veering from equilibrium due to constant data inputs. Heisenberg would be pleased. We may even find Schrodinger's cat (with apologies to Mr. Carrol).
Icura	Sep 20th 0:20 AM ah, the chaos theory.�The source of most of my university fusteration.....�(Talking about random generating geometric schenes here)�I think Schrodinder would be excited.�whats this got to do with SoIaF? I dont know, I just get excited when people talk about Schrodinder
Min	Sep 20th 7:53 AM I am not sure about how much Mr. Martin will or will not be influenced by what we and others mail to him. From what he wrote me, he seems to be a firm character, so I think the "danger" of him getting influenced by our weird theories is rather small. Nevertheless. A writer is just a catalyst. Very few things come originally from the purity of the soul (if there is such), but are taken, stolen from voices, words, themes, from ideas and pictures flying around freely to take them - consciously or unconsciously. A writer will always use those (consciously or unconsciously, as I said), tear them out of the depth, catch them out of thin air, and transform them into something new and marvellous. That is what every writer does, and what Mr. Martin does, too. So every word one of us says might - MIGHT! - transform into a new thread, into a new idea. We will never know, and most probably, Mr. Martin himself will never know.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 20th 9:20 AM If that were to happen, if our comments did in some way influence the story even slightly, might Mr. Martin at some point in time reveal that such a thing had happenend? Is he that type of person? Ran? Anyone?
The Mob User ID: 9209903	Sep 20th 9:41 AM Of course Martin is influenceable...yes, even _touchable_! In the end, every one is! A little knee-cap rendezvous, starring 'Mr. Black & Decker'...hell, you can't imagine how accomodating people can be. You wanna see Tyrion be the head attraction of a mummer's show? You wanna see Varys grow a new one? It can be arranged...for the proper sum. Just don't be disrespectful, or we'll arrange for Martin to chit-chat with Jimmy Hoffa, give over the rest of the aSoIaF series for Terry Goodkind to write, and fix you some new, solid shoes, as well as some swimming lessons. _Capiche?_
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 21st 5:09 AM Hm. Giving the rest of the story over to Robert Jordan to write would be worse.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 21st 7:05 AM Hm. I seem to recall that you _liked_ RJ's writing, Min. :o)
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 21st 8:50 AM Oh, you should read more closely what I wrote about him. I liked him first (hence the nick...). I thought he ahd great ideas and started of powerfully. He then lost the grip on his story, and that is the worst thing that could happen to any writer... or any story, for that matter. That's why giving the story over to RJ would be SUCH a bad idea... can you imagine what would become of ASoIaF if the writer lost the grip on the story??? Brrr.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 21st 10:40 AM I'd still rate him above Terry Goodkind, though.