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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Who is who in the real world?

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 25th 11:38 AM
We started this discussion in the last "The Readers" topic, and some of us seemed to have fun with it, so I thought it might be worth a topic of its own.

It is about which places in GRRM's books could be where on our real map, and which people could be who in the real world. Not only about references GRRM certainly uses, but also about our perception of characters and places.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 25th 11:44 AM
The last posts:

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333
Sep 24th 11:48 PM
Min: I loved the idea of Brits (especiallly Scots) as Starks, Scandinavians (particularly in "Viking"
days) as Ironmen and Italians as Highgarden. I
had sort of thoughgt of the first two...not in so
many words (except Stark/Scot) but the Highgarden thing seems like a very smart idea that somehow eluded me.

As we know, GRRM often says he writes of
peoples based on combinations (Dothraki are
Mongol and several other peoples, for example).
So I know that we all know there is no exact
correspondence. Still, it is a lot of fun indeed to speculate on the semi-correspondence that may
exist.

Some have compared ancient Rome to Valaria. I
wonder if anyone else thought Syrio was a bit
"French"? Did the far eastern city Dany stayed in
seem a bit chinese? OH and the Isle of Faces guy
is black.....so.....Africa coming in future volumes?

Again, not exact correspondence or stereotypes.
Just fun speculation intended here.

Oh, Min.....in your opinion, which character seems
the most "German"? Of course you can say none
are very "German"....I was curious though. Yet
again....just for fun.

(Theon seems the most "American" to me...sad to
say)

________________________________________________

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674
Sep 25th 1:12 AM
You're all wrong:
Starks - Scots - Edinburgh
Kings Landing - London
Riverlands - York
Ironmen - Ireland
Dragonstone - Scapa Flow (if you moved it south)
Storm's End - Dover
Sunspear - Brystol
The Neck - the area between the two firth's
Free Cities - Hanseatic League (Germany,
Holland)
Dothraki Sea - Russian Steppes
Lannister Land - Wales
Highgarden - Ancient Fabled Camelot

Well, I can't have everything right, Lookes like the Vale would have to be in Colorado. he he he

ab

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 25th 11:47 AM
The most German character? VERY difficult. Given the characteristics often thought of as typically "german" (like diligent, just, accurate and several others), well I would have to say... Stannis. The more I think of it, the more I have to agree with myself. He is very German. Sad, because he is the character I dislike most in the book.
From the good guys, the most germanish character would definitely be Ned. He is quite germanish, but Stannis is far ahead still.

That's a nice play, Linda.

Loras clearly seems the italian type of guy to me.

And Varys always reminds me of my university books where the people of Constantinople were described.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 25th 12:51 PM
Min;

How fitting are such old stereotypes in describing Germans of today, anyway?

I think that today we have (in Norway, at least) become so blatantly individual that it is very difficult to tag something down as 'Norwegian' - you have all kinds. Of course, I'm a bit blind for this myself, being in the middle of it, but I think I can safely say that the 'stereotype Norwegian' -99 model, is _very_ different from the -50 model.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 25th 12:58 PM
SURE we are! And I am the very last person to stereotype someone. I just liked this idea of matching the places to certain places and the people to vertain peoples as good fun, that's all.

*wonders why Kay starts to take her seriously all of a sudden*

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Sep 25th 1:00 PM
I like both Stannis and Ned, actually. I have to admit that Lannister's are Welsh. I mean, mostly bad guy Welsh, but Welsh all the same. (Yes, I know GRRM says they are the heros of their own story, but the murdering ones are bad guys IMHO)

Ok Dirjj, Wales was good and Camelot was good. However, I hereby challenge you to prove that the Iron Islands are Ireland. You see, that map does not locate all things relative to where they are in the British Isles (some things, like Casterly Rock, are located like that). The Irish people were a bunch of monks and tribes for most of the dark and middle ages. They only fought amongst themselves, they never tried to send raiders to other lands, not that I know of.

Iron Islands = Vikings

If you like perhaps it could be Orkney Islands, since Vikings lived there but it is now part of Great Britain.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 26th 5:28 AM
What would the free cities be?
The Greek Agais?

haaruk Sep 26th 9:39 AM
What Real World? Have I missed something?

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 26th 10:09 AM
:-). Our real world, haaruk. The one right outside your window. Just open the shutters. :-)

haaruk Sep 26th 10:16 AM
Ouch!

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Sep 26th 9:27 PM
No LindaElane, when I mentioned the Iron Islands as being Ireland (Eire), I didn't intend it to be personnel-wise, but physical. Of course the Ironmen of Vikingesque people and the Irish Celts weren't raiders of that type. Hmmm, maybe if you moved Ireland to Britain east coast and glued it on there, then we might be able to have the Vale leave Colorado (great skiing there I heard).

Side bar, I read the EATERS OF THE DEAD by M.Crichton (13th Warrion), and there's a spot were he mentions an area in Denmark (I believe) that is supposed to be saturated by rivers that are called Wyks, and that the people who lived there were raiders that were sometimes called Wykings. Sounds like that's where the term Vikings came from. What say you Kay?

ab

cgob
User ID: 0053014 Sep 26th 11:35 PM
Just to let you all know, the irish tribes did in fact go on raids including england and can in fact be traced to various ports around the new world as well as areas throughout europe. In fact, the origin of these people (including the rest of the saxons/vikings/scandinavdians) all supposedly migrated from what now is the upper portion of the germanic region which in turn were from (albeit hundreds if not thousands yrs)the upper middle east. A warlike people very similar to the Scots, the Irish were never actually subjugated until the establishment of the english version of the saxon empire in the middle ages. In fact a strong tie between the Vikings and the Irish can be made in the annulls of early history just by the very movement of tribes themselves (please see any history book).

Therefore it is plausible that the Iron Islands are comparable to Ireland. The Starks would have to be from the Netherlands, the Tyrells might be Italien but they could be French as well. Syrio might be french only because his name reminds one of Cyrano de Bergerac but his fellows sound more like the assyrians of the (later) middle east who supposedly produced such fanatic groups such as the assassains and other fanatic Muslim groups dedicated to the upheaval of Christainity and Kings who decided that (because of Rome) maybe this "offshoot" of Judeaism might actually be harmful to their standard of living.
The Dokathrai are the native people of North America (similar to Jordan's Aeil-another too close similarity) combined with the supposed traits of the Mongrel Chinese. All of the people from the blessed isles are european in my opinion, one way or another.

An interesting comparison between Martin's map of the Blessed isles and the North American/South American continents, but only in shape and definately not in character.

unBelieve my friends...it makes life much more interesting :)

If only aSoS would get her NOW!

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 27th 6:05 AM
Dirjj;

I must say that immediately the explanation you provided sounded like (excuse the frankness) bullshit.

But knowing too little on the matter, I decided to make some mini-research. It would seem that the origin of the term 'viking' is uncertain - all that with certainty can be established is that the term dates back from the viking age, and that it was used by the vikings themselves, in all of Scandinavia, not only in any given area of Denmark.

I have heard one explanation that suggests that 'vikings' was used on warrior parties that went 'on viking', i.e. raiding parties up rivers, sailing their longships up the rivermouths, or 'vik', as is the modern Norwegian term for a rivermouth. My knowledge of old Norwegian/northern language is sadly lacking, but I would hazard a guess that it would be something like 'vikr', or something in that lane.

'Wyk' sounds like a foreign bastardization of that, and it is not impossible that this could be so. Just see how the Englishmen turned the danish king Knut's name into 'Canute'. Sounds like a goddam squirrel, if you ask me. :P

Anyway, I will not say anything for certain, but I've never ever heard about 'Wyks' before.

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Sep 27th 9:14 PM
Hey, I don't make up the stories, I just pass them along. Well, here's a excerpt from the Paperback version of EATERS OF THE DEAD by Michael Crichton, which is taken directly from the manuscript of Ibn Fadlan (the 13th warrior):

Page 65:
for the spance of two days we sailed along a flat coast among many islands that are called the land of the Dans, coming finally to a region of marsh with a crisscross or narrow rivers that pour onto the sea. These rivers have no names themselves but are each called "wyk", and the peoples of the narrow rivers are called "wykings," which meant the Northmen warriors who sail their ships up the rivers and attack settlements in such fashion*

*there is some dispute among modern scholars about the origin of the term "viking", but most agree with Ibn Fadlan, that it derives from Vik, meaning a creek or narrow river.

ab

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 28th 8:22 AM
OK, I seem to have misunderstood you a bit. Sorry if I came off as biting.

In any event, I was jumbling a thing or two together in my explanation, which I would want to correct.
Since I recalled the theory linking 'vik' to raiders sailing up rivers, I made the erroneous (more or less subconcious) conclusion of
thinking of the modern Norwegian word of 'vik' to be the equivalent of a rivermouth. This is not correct.
A 'vik' is a small bay, in which a river may or may not have a mouth. Perhaps the older word might have had a slightly different meaning, but this is something I'm not sure of.

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Sep 28th 10:11 PM
The contention that it was common for the Irish to go no raiding parties into other countries does not deserve the dignity of a response. I wonder if you even noticed that I made no claim about Celts in general? :::Sigh::::I just do not enjoy someone pretending I said something and then arguing with it. Anyway, thats my final word on the subject, I am not discussing it any more as I find you like to argue for the sake of argument without a lot of logic involved.

(PS KAH...remember when I once talked mistakenly talked to you like this??? :-) This is directed at cgob, however, who causes me to see gobs of trouble at the moment :-) )

Actually, I hope no one minds. I am terribly proud of my Irish blood and I love the country a lot. And the fightin Irish just rose up in me.......

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 29th 4:31 AM
LindaElane, that is what we like you for.

Brother, no offense intended.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 29th 8:14 AM
LindaElane;

Yes, I remember.

I have not followed the debate between you and cgob (or was it Dirjj?) very closely, but for what is worth, I have not heard about the Ireland people being raiders in foreign countries to any extent. I haven't heard the opposite, either, for that matter.

I don't exactly know what is more wrong with the image of going foreign to kill and plunder, instead of doing it at home. Innocents take the hard hits either way.

As such, I'm not particularly proud of the raiding Vikings (they were surely an unwashed lot of murderers and rapists), but I'm not particularly ashamed of them either.
These were generally evil times, and the Vikings were just a bit more successful in their killing and plundering than most others in the period.

And of course, raiding was not all what the Vikings were about...

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 30th 11:10 AM
so what else, Kay?

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 30th 11:13 AM
LindaElane, perhaps the "fighting Irish" that just rose up in you was the same fighting Irish blood that induced all those raids. :-))

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 25th 11:38 AM We started this discussion in the last "The Readers" topic, and some of us seemed to have fun with it, so I thought it might be worth a topic of its own. It is about which places in GRRM's books could be where on our real map, and which people could be who in the real world. Not only about references GRRM certainly uses, but also about our perception of characters and places.
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 25th 11:44 AM The last posts: LindaElane User ID: 7733333 Sep 24th 11:48 PM Min: I loved the idea of Brits (especiallly Scots) as Starks, Scandinavians (particularly in "Viking" days) as Ironmen and Italians as Highgarden. I had sort of thoughgt of the first two...not in so many words (except Stark/Scot) but the Highgarden thing seems like a very smart idea that somehow eluded me. As we know, GRRM often says he writes of peoples based on combinations (Dothraki are Mongol and several other peoples, for example). So I know that we all know there is no exact correspondence. Still, it is a lot of fun indeed to speculate on the semi-correspondence that may exist. Some have compared ancient Rome to Valaria. I wonder if anyone else thought Syrio was a bit "French"? Did the far eastern city Dany stayed in seem a bit chinese? OH and the Isle of Faces guy is black.....so.....Africa coming in future volumes? Again, not exact correspondence or stereotypes. Just fun speculation intended here. Oh, Min.....in your opinion, which character seems the most "German"? Of course you can say none are very "German"....I was curious though. Yet again....just for fun. (Theon seems the most "American" to me...sad to say) ________________________________________________ Dirjj User ID: 0094674 Sep 25th 1:12 AM You're all wrong: Starks - Scots - Edinburgh Kings Landing - London Riverlands - York Ironmen - Ireland Dragonstone - Scapa Flow (if you moved it south) Storm's End - Dover Sunspear - Brystol The Neck - the area between the two firth's Free Cities - Hanseatic League (Germany, Holland) Dothraki Sea - Russian Steppes Lannister Land - Wales Highgarden - Ancient Fabled Camelot Well, I can't have everything right, Lookes like the Vale would have to be in Colorado. he he he ab
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 25th 11:47 AM The most German character? VERY difficult. Given the characteristics often thought of as typically "german" (like diligent, just, accurate and several others), well I would have to say... Stannis. The more I think of it, the more I have to agree with myself. He is very German. Sad, because he is the character I dislike most in the book. From the good guys, the most germanish character would definitely be Ned. He is quite germanish, but Stannis is far ahead still. That's a nice play, Linda. Loras clearly seems the italian type of guy to me. And Varys always reminds me of my university books where the people of Constantinople were described.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 25th 12:51 PM Min; How fitting are such old stereotypes in describing Germans of today, anyway? I think that today we have (in Norway, at least) become so blatantly individual that it is very difficult to tag something down as 'Norwegian' - you have all kinds. Of course, I'm a bit blind for this myself, being in the middle of it, but I think I can safely say that the 'stereotype Norwegian' -99 model, is _very_ different from the -50 model.
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 25th 12:58 PM SURE we are! And I am the very last person to stereotype someone. I just liked this idea of matching the places to certain places and the people to vertain peoples as good fun, that's all. wonders why Kay starts to take her seriously all of a sudden
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Sep 25th 1:00 PM I like both Stannis and Ned, actually. I have to admit that Lannister's are Welsh. I mean, mostly bad guy Welsh, but Welsh all the same. (Yes, I know GRRM says they are the heros of their own story, but the murdering ones are bad guys IMHO) Ok Dirjj, Wales was good and Camelot was good. However, I hereby challenge you to prove that the Iron Islands are Ireland. You see, that map does not locate all things relative to where they are in the British Isles (some things, like Casterly Rock, are located like that). The Irish people were a bunch of monks and tribes for most of the dark and middle ages. They only fought amongst themselves, they never tried to send raiders to other lands, not that I know of. Iron Islands = Vikings If you like perhaps it could be Orkney Islands, since Vikings lived there but it is now part of Great Britain.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 26th 5:28 AM What would the free cities be? The Greek Agais?
haaruk	Sep 26th 9:39 AM What Real World? Have I missed something?
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 26th 10:09 AM :-). Our real world, haaruk. The one right outside your window. Just open the shutters. :-)
haaruk	Sep 26th 10:16 AM Ouch!
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Sep 26th 9:27 PM No LindaElane, when I mentioned the Iron Islands as being Ireland (Eire), I didn't intend it to be personnel-wise, but physical. Of course the Ironmen of Vikingesque people and the Irish Celts weren't raiders of that type. Hmmm, maybe if you moved Ireland to Britain east coast and glued it on there, then we might be able to have the Vale leave Colorado (great skiing there I heard). Side bar, I read the EATERS OF THE DEAD by M.Crichton (13th Warrion), and there's a spot were he mentions an area in Denmark (I believe) that is supposed to be saturated by rivers that are called Wyks, and that the people who lived there were raiders that were sometimes called Wykings. Sounds like that's where the term Vikings came from. What say you Kay? ab
cgob User ID: 0053014	Sep 26th 11:35 PM Just to let you all know, the irish tribes did in fact go on raids including england and can in fact be traced to various ports around the new world as well as areas throughout europe. In fact, the origin of these people (including the rest of the saxons/vikings/scandinavdians) all supposedly migrated from what now is the upper portion of the germanic region which in turn were from (albeit hundreds if not thousands yrs)the upper middle east. A warlike people very similar to the Scots, the Irish were never actually subjugated until the establishment of the english version of the saxon empire in the middle ages. In fact a strong tie between the Vikings and the Irish can be made in the annulls of early history just by the very movement of tribes themselves (please see any history book). Therefore it is plausible that the Iron Islands are comparable to Ireland. The Starks would have to be from the Netherlands, the Tyrells might be Italien but they could be French as well. Syrio might be french only because his name reminds one of Cyrano de Bergerac but his fellows sound more like the assyrians of the (later) middle east who supposedly produced such fanatic groups such as the assassains and other fanatic Muslim groups dedicated to the upheaval of Christainity and Kings who decided that (because of Rome) maybe this "offshoot" of Judeaism might actually be harmful to their standard of living. The Dokathrai are the native people of North America (similar to Jordan's Aeil-another too close similarity) combined with the supposed traits of the Mongrel Chinese. All of the people from the blessed isles are european in my opinion, one way or another. An interesting comparison between Martin's map of the Blessed isles and the North American/South American continents, but only in shape and definately not in character. unBelieve my friends...it makes life much more interesting :) If only aSoS would get her NOW!
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 27th 6:05 AM Dirjj; I must say that immediately the explanation you provided sounded like (excuse the frankness) bullshit. But knowing too little on the matter, I decided to make some mini-research. It would seem that the origin of the term 'viking' is uncertain - all that with certainty can be established is that the term dates back from the viking age, and that it was used by the vikings themselves, in all of Scandinavia, not only in any given area of Denmark. I have heard one explanation that suggests that 'vikings' was used on warrior parties that went 'on viking', i.e. raiding parties up rivers, sailing their longships up the rivermouths, or 'vik', as is the modern Norwegian term for a rivermouth. My knowledge of old Norwegian/northern language is sadly lacking, but I would hazard a guess that it would be something like 'vikr', or something in that lane. 'Wyk' sounds like a foreign bastardization of that, and it is not impossible that this could be so. Just see how the Englishmen turned the danish king Knut's name into 'Canute'. Sounds like a goddam squirrel, if you ask me. :P Anyway, I will not say anything for certain, but I've never ever heard about 'Wyks' before.
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Sep 27th 9:14 PM Hey, I don't make up the stories, I just pass them along. Well, here's a excerpt from the Paperback version of EATERS OF THE DEAD by Michael Crichton, which is taken directly from the manuscript of Ibn Fadlan (the 13th warrior): Page 65: for the spance of two days we sailed along a flat coast among many islands that are called the land of the Dans, coming finally to a region of marsh with a crisscross or narrow rivers that pour onto the sea. These rivers have no names themselves but are each called "wyk", and the peoples of the narrow rivers are called "wykings," which meant the Northmen warriors who sail their ships up the rivers and attack settlements in such fashion* *there is some dispute among modern scholars about the origin of the term "viking", but most agree with Ibn Fadlan, that it derives from Vik, meaning a creek or narrow river. ab
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 28th 8:22 AM OK, I seem to have misunderstood you a bit. Sorry if I came off as biting. In any event, I was jumbling a thing or two together in my explanation, which I would want to correct. Since I recalled the theory linking 'vik' to raiders sailing up rivers, I made the erroneous (more or less subconcious) conclusion of thinking of the modern Norwegian word of 'vik' to be the equivalent of a rivermouth. This is not correct. A 'vik' is a small bay, in which a river may or may not have a mouth. Perhaps the older word might have had a slightly different meaning, but this is something I'm not sure of.
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Sep 28th 10:11 PM The contention that it was common for the Irish to go no raiding parties into other countries does not deserve the dignity of a response. I wonder if you even noticed that I made no claim about Celts in general? :::Sigh::::I just do not enjoy someone pretending I said something and then arguing with it. Anyway, thats my final word on the subject, I am not discussing it any more as I find you like to argue for the sake of argument without a lot of logic involved. (PS KAH...remember when I once talked mistakenly talked to you like this??? :-) This is directed at cgob, however, who causes me to see gobs of trouble at the moment :-) ) Actually, I hope no one minds. I am terribly proud of my Irish blood and I love the country a lot. And the fightin Irish just rose up in me.......
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 29th 4:31 AM LindaElane, that is what we like you for. Brother, no offense intended.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 29th 8:14 AM LindaElane; Yes, I remember. I have not followed the debate between you and cgob (or was it Dirjj?) very closely, but for what is worth, I have not heard about the Ireland people being raiders in foreign countries to any extent. I haven't heard the opposite, either, for that matter. I don't exactly know what is more wrong with the image of going foreign to kill and plunder, instead of doing it at home. Innocents take the hard hits either way. As such, I'm not particularly proud of the raiding Vikings (they were surely an unwashed lot of murderers and rapists), but I'm not particularly ashamed of them either. These were generally evil times, and the Vikings were just a bit more successful in their killing and plundering than most others in the period. And of course, raiding was not all what the Vikings were about...
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 30th 11:10 AM so what else, Kay?
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 30th 11:13 AM LindaElane, perhaps the "fighting Irish" that just rose up in you was the same fighting Irish blood that induced all those raids. :-))