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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Some Non Plot Related Questions

Next 20 Messages

Audrey
User ID: 1439244 Oct 3rd 2:27 PM
I have some questions that have been nagging me for some time now.

A) How wide is the Neck?

B) What is wildfire made of?

C) What is to the west of Westeros?

D) How did the Night's Watch manage to get the Wall that high without any cranes?

E) Are there any gates through the Wall which the Night's Watch goes through?

F) How are all these Wildings getting through the wall to the south? Are there gates that have been left open someplace? How does one climb over a 700' high wall?

G) Why are the covers on the books have such bad artwork?

H) Why did Martin list so many people which aren't depicted in appendixs?

I) How many Houses are in Westeros?

K) Why is House Stark considered a major House when they aren't related to anyone? What about their relations through Eddards mother?

Audrey
User ID: 1439244 Oct 3rd 2:28 PM
L) On what latitude is the Neck?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 3rd 2:56 PM
A) The Neck, at the narrowest, is about the same length as the Wall (about 100 leagues, or 300 miles.)

B) Who knows. It seems distinctly fantastical. ;) I imagine some form of oil and maybe naphta are involved in the making.

C) Well, the Summer Isles seem to be west of Westeros. I imagine, if you go west enough, you'll hit the eastern continent. What lies between though ... whether another continent or something ... I couldn't say. We've only heard of one person try it, a King Brandon Stark, but he never returned.

D) Might as well ask how the Egyptians managed to build the Pyramids without cranes. The Watch probably used a massive amount of wooden scaffolding to raise parts of the wall. Although, as we see, they _do_ have cranes -- or at least they know how to use them. A big crane is used to bring up people and supplies at Castle Black.

E) Yes. Well, sort of. There are tunnels that lead through the Wall. Jon describes it, as I recall, when he and Samwell go to the weirwood grove to take their vows.Iron gates keep them closed off.

F) To the far west, the Wall ends, but there's a deep ravine and some tough mountains there. It's too difficult for an army to get through, but wildling raiders (and refugees) filter through in ragged groups. In CoK, another method is described -- wildlings have crude boats which they can use to get past the east end of the Wall (Eastwatch-by-the-Sea) and land in the Bay of Seals. The Umbers complain of it.

G) I like certain covers myself, though there certainly are problems with them. GoT's U.S. hardback is very nice (like the dragon head incorporated into the Iron Throne.) The paperback ... Jon could be Benjen and Ghost looks like a happy little pup, but the composition is very good. The U.K. GoT paperback is also rather nice, though too fantasyish.

CoK ... I really like the U.S. hardback cover of that. Very nice. I could care less for the U.K. hardback, however.

One that folk haven't generally seen is the Swedish cover of GoT, which is very good (it was done by Youll, who did the paperback, but apparently was rejected.) It shows Brynden Tully meeting Catelyn with the Eyrie way up in the distance. Brynden isn't quite right -- not old enough, not in armor -- but Cat is very good.

Martin has no say as to the covers, and it's the head of the art department who provides whatever information to the artist. Sometimes they don't provide enough. But if CoK is any sign, I think Youll is getting more of a chance to do things right.

H) There's a lot of people in life. One of my future projects is to put together the authorative character compilation .. but that'll be a project of many moons. ;)

I) Over 250.

J (or K)) The Starks are the overlords and Wardens of the North and the house of the old Kings of Winter.

There's only four Wardens in the Seven Kingdoms, so being one of them is pretty big. They also can field a pretty large army (not as large as the Lannisters, Tyrells, or Dornish, though.) So ... they command a lot of people, even if their marriage ties aren't all that strong in comparison to (say) the Tullys.

On the other hand, Ned was fostered with the lord of House Baratheon and future king of the Seven Kingdoms and was fostered during this time by the lord of House Arryn and the future Hand of the King, and was married to the eldest daughter of Lord Tully (another great house) while becoming brother-in-law to Lord Arryn by his own marriage to a Tully woman.

That's pretty strong ties. Indeed, we see none stronger in the Seven Kingdoms. A singular stroke of (mis)fortune for the Starks of Winterfell, in the end.

We know nothing of Eddard's mother. I recall, vaguely, that someone asked -- and Martin dodged the question. I wish I had it on record, but it doesn't seem to be a thing in the SSM collection. We may find out something in the future.

L) Don't know. It's hard to measure latitude, given that weather is hard to tell by. The continent of Westeros is about as large as South America, so it covers a very wide range of latitudes.

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 3rd 4:24 PM
Boy, I've ne'er thought about Eddard's mother. We know a little about hsi father, but the mother's aa enigma. can anyone find something out?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 3rd 4:27 PM
Does anyone remember the comment I referred to? That someone had asked him and he had dodged the question?

I believe the question went something like, 'What about Eddard's mother?' (among listing questions about members of other houses, maybe?)

And he just answered, 'She's dead,' or something like. Infuriating. ;)

I actually, I believe it lead to a thread of speculation in which I suggested that his mother might have been a wildling (to one degree or another -- maybe, like Mance Rayder, adopted, but raised by some lord as a foster daughter.)

Carol
User ID: 9405543 Oct 3rd 4:51 PM
If Ned's mother was a wildling, she could have brought the old servant woman to Winterfell. She could also be the source of the bloodline that triggered the warg ability in the Starks.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Oct 3rd 4:57 PM
Yes, it was confirmed _somewhere_ by Martin's words that _he_ never thought about Ned's mother too much.
That was pretty good, Ran. Can we ask you _any_ question we can think of and you will have an answer?
:-)

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 3rd 5:09 PM
If that happens, you'll know that I'm the author. And since I'm not, that won't happen any time soon.

I could wish, though. ;)

labor
User ID: 8785553 Oct 3rd 5:18 PM

Yes, I remember the comment, Ran. IIRC it was an answer to Markus Rush, but I'm not sure... Anyway IIRC he said that Ned's mother was "Lady Stark". I really wonder what House she belonged to though... It should somewhat define who will be Robb's most trustworthy liegemen... Or maybe not. But it would definitely be a special tie to one of the (Northern?) Houses.

Maybe she was a Mormont? Jeor Mormont seems to have those pre-cognitive dreams and the Mormont women seem pretty wild - i.e. the right blood to produce Lyanna or Arya. On the other hand she might have been an Arryn - perhaps that was the reason for Ned being fostered by Jon Arryn. I really hope that GRRM decides on her identity.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 3rd 6:18 PM
Okay, found the message. It was indeed from Markus, and is in fact in the first part of Information from GRRM (II). I actually had part of that mail in the Correspondance section of the So Spake Martin collection ... but somehow I lopped off three of the questions and answers that Markus had.

I've now corrected it, so SSC has it (as Mail #28.)

As to a Mormont ... I don't know. It should have been mentioned. There was ample opportunity. When Jorah talks of Ned Stark, when the Old Bear talks of the Starks, when Maege Mormont is in Winterfell, when Catelyn thinks of the Mormont women . . .

Same with Arryn. If a niece ... or sister, or something, of Jon Arryn's had married Rickard Stark -- well, that means Robb has a claim to the Eyrie descending from Jon Arryn's father or grandfather. It would have been nice to hear it mentioned.

I think it'd be kind of !good to not have mentioned the fact, so I'll assume it's either some other house (Dustin? Ryswell? The lord of the former and a knight of the latter accompanied him to Dorne) or ... something strange (like an adopted wildling raised by a noble house.)

And yeah, Carol, that's exactly what attracts me to it. It'd be a handy way to explain the sudden appearance of wargs and .. well, not greensight, but magical potential in offspring of Ned.

Audrey
User ID: 1439244 Oct 3rd 10:07 PM
I think that Eddard's mother was Old Nan! THAT is what she was trying to tell them before she died!!!!

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Oct 3rd 10:33 PM
I thought that Nan was around before Rickard and was Rickards, then his kids, then his grandkids nanny. We've all speculated that Old Nan is the same lady as the one that Dunk tried to protect, and later followed to Dorne. If that's the case, then she'd be way to old by the time of Eddard's birth to possibly be his mother. Perhaps Eddard's mother was Dornish, and brought Nan with her up North.

ab

Kristin
User ID: 0317884 Oct 4th 0:09 AM
I remember that. I think the exact response to who Ned's mother was "Lady Stark. She died."

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 4th 2:55 AM
Drijj - seriously? Old Nan is the woman Dunk tried to protect from Aerion( or whatever his name was?) - I just can't believe it! that's insane! how can you think about a connection like that?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 4th 3:03 AM
Well, it's a potential. It would explain a couple of things -- how Old Nan knows so many stories (she was a puppeteer in her youth),why Hodor is so damned big (Dunk the Tall's grandson or great-grandson), and where Dunk's descendant is (Hodor -- Martin was coy about it when asked.)

But, I don't buy it. Where's the olive skin? I should think that would have been mentioned. And you don't really need to be a puppeteer to know stories, nor was Dunk the only tall guy around.

Anyhow, I prefer that Littlefinger is Dunk's descendant. ;)

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 4th 3:59 AM
Even if Nan was there long before Eddard... perhaps it was an old tradition of the Stark's house that they _all_ married Old Nan? Wonder why Ned broke with that tradition, though...
;-)

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 4th 5:46 AM
As to Audrey's Q. B);

Perhaps wildfire has some magical properties inherent, considering how the Pyromancers use magic in their production. We know that magic is in the production process, since the production increased markedly with the birth of the dragons.

Such mass production of magical devices seems a little weird, but who knows?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 4th 5:51 AM
To add;

It boils down to two alternatives - either the production process includes magic, because the ingredients are too volatile to safely handle/mix together without the magic.

Or the magic makes an ingredient itself, in order to enhance already inherent traits of the wildfire; like almost impossible to snuff out, burns for a long time, etc. The thing sounds like some particularly nasty form of white phosphor, or something.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 4th 6:50 AM
kay, that was what I thought, too. Another thing that came to my mind was: Could there be dragon-fire as an ingredient? Or something related to dragons?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 4th 9:13 AM
Instant dragonfire on a box.
Shake it a bit, and soon your whole house is in fire. Marvelous at New Year's Eve. Only 99 golden Dragons at W-Mart...

*ducks away from 'fruits' thrown by Min*

Next 20 Messages

Audrey User ID: 1439244	Oct 3rd 2:27 PM I have some questions that have been nagging me for some time now. A) How wide is the Neck? B) What is wildfire made of? C) What is to the west of Westeros? D) How did the Night's Watch manage to get the Wall that high without any cranes? E) Are there any gates through the Wall which the Night's Watch goes through? F) How are all these Wildings getting through the wall to the south? Are there gates that have been left open someplace? How does one climb over a 700' high wall? G) Why are the covers on the books have such bad artwork? H) Why did Martin list so many people which aren't depicted in appendixs? I) How many Houses are in Westeros? K) Why is House Stark considered a major House when they aren't related to anyone? What about their relations through Eddards mother?
Audrey User ID: 1439244	Oct 3rd 2:28 PM L) On what latitude is the Neck?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 3rd 2:56 PM A) The Neck, at the narrowest, is about the same length as the Wall (about 100 leagues, or 300 miles.) B) Who knows. It seems distinctly fantastical. ;) I imagine some form of oil and maybe naphta are involved in the making. C) Well, the Summer Isles seem to be west of Westeros. I imagine, if you go west enough, you'll hit the eastern continent. What lies between though ... whether another continent or something ... I couldn't say. We've only heard of one person try it, a King Brandon Stark, but he never returned. D) Might as well ask how the Egyptians managed to build the Pyramids without cranes. The Watch probably used a massive amount of wooden scaffolding to raise parts of the wall. Although, as we see, they _do_ have cranes -- or at least they know how to use them. A big crane is used to bring up people and supplies at Castle Black. E) Yes. Well, sort of. There are tunnels that lead through the Wall. Jon describes it, as I recall, when he and Samwell go to the weirwood grove to take their vows.Iron gates keep them closed off. F) To the far west, the Wall ends, but there's a deep ravine and some tough mountains there. It's too difficult for an army to get through, but wildling raiders (and refugees) filter through in ragged groups. In CoK, another method is described -- wildlings have crude boats which they can use to get past the east end of the Wall (Eastwatch-by-the-Sea) and land in the Bay of Seals. The Umbers complain of it. G) I like certain covers myself, though there certainly are problems with them. GoT's U.S. hardback is very nice (like the dragon head incorporated into the Iron Throne.) The paperback ... Jon could be Benjen and Ghost looks like a happy little pup, but the composition is very good. The U.K. GoT paperback is also rather nice, though too fantasyish. CoK ... I really like the U.S. hardback cover of that. Very nice. I could care less for the U.K. hardback, however. One that folk haven't generally seen is the Swedish cover of GoT, which is very good (it was done by Youll, who did the paperback, but apparently was rejected.) It shows Brynden Tully meeting Catelyn with the Eyrie way up in the distance. Brynden isn't quite right -- not old enough, not in armor -- but Cat is very good. Martin has no say as to the covers, and it's the head of the art department who provides whatever information to the artist. Sometimes they don't provide enough. But if CoK is any sign, I think Youll is getting more of a chance to do things right. H) There's a lot of people in life. One of my future projects is to put together the authorative character compilation .. but that'll be a project of many moons. ;) I) Over 250. J (or K)) The Starks are the overlords and Wardens of the North and the house of the old Kings of Winter. There's only four Wardens in the Seven Kingdoms, so being one of them is pretty big. They also can field a pretty large army (not as large as the Lannisters, Tyrells, or Dornish, though.) So ... they command a lot of people, even if their marriage ties aren't all that strong in comparison to (say) the Tullys. On the other hand, Ned was fostered with the lord of House Baratheon and future king of the Seven Kingdoms and was fostered during this time by the lord of House Arryn and the future Hand of the King, and was married to the eldest daughter of Lord Tully (another great house) while becoming brother-in-law to Lord Arryn by his own marriage to a Tully woman. That's pretty strong ties. Indeed, we see none stronger in the Seven Kingdoms. A singular stroke of (mis)fortune for the Starks of Winterfell, in the end. We know nothing of Eddard's mother. I recall, vaguely, that someone asked -- and Martin dodged the question. I wish I had it on record, but it doesn't seem to be a thing in the SSM collection. We may find out something in the future. L) Don't know. It's hard to measure latitude, given that weather is hard to tell by. The continent of Westeros is about as large as South America, so it covers a very wide range of latitudes.
Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 3rd 4:24 PM Boy, I've ne'er thought about Eddard's mother. We know a little about hsi father, but the mother's aa enigma. can anyone find something out?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 3rd 4:27 PM Does anyone remember the comment I referred to? That someone had asked him and he had dodged the question? I believe the question went something like, 'What about Eddard's mother?' (among listing questions about members of other houses, maybe?) And he just answered, 'She's dead,' or something like. Infuriating. ;) I actually, I believe it lead to a thread of speculation in which I suggested that his mother might have been a wildling (to one degree or another -- maybe, like Mance Rayder, adopted, but raised by some lord as a foster daughter.)
Carol User ID: 9405543	Oct 3rd 4:51 PM If Ned's mother was a wildling, she could have brought the old servant woman to Winterfell. She could also be the source of the bloodline that triggered the warg ability in the Starks.
Min User ID: 9433023	Oct 3rd 4:57 PM Yes, it was confirmed _somewhere_ by Martin's words that _he_ never thought about Ned's mother too much. That was pretty good, Ran. Can we ask you _any_ question we can think of and you will have an answer? :-)
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 3rd 5:09 PM If that happens, you'll know that I'm the author. And since I'm not, that won't happen any time soon. I could wish, though. ;)
labor User ID: 8785553	Oct 3rd 5:18 PM Yes, I remember the comment, Ran. IIRC it was an answer to Markus Rush, but I'm not sure... Anyway IIRC he said that Ned's mother was "Lady Stark". I really wonder what House she belonged to though... It should somewhat define who will be Robb's most trustworthy liegemen... Or maybe not. But it would definitely be a special tie to one of the (Northern?) Houses. Maybe she was a Mormont? Jeor Mormont seems to have those pre-cognitive dreams and the Mormont women seem pretty wild - i.e. the right blood to produce Lyanna or Arya. On the other hand she might have been an Arryn - perhaps that was the reason for Ned being fostered by Jon Arryn. I really hope that GRRM decides on her identity.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 3rd 6:18 PM Okay, found the message. It was indeed from Markus, and is in fact in the first part of Information from GRRM (II). I actually had part of that mail in the Correspondance section of the So Spake Martin collection ... but somehow I lopped off three of the questions and answers that Markus had. I've now corrected it, so SSC has it (as Mail #28.) As to a Mormont ... I don't know. It should have been mentioned. There was ample opportunity. When Jorah talks of Ned Stark, when the Old Bear talks of the Starks, when Maege Mormont is in Winterfell, when Catelyn thinks of the Mormont women . . . Same with Arryn. If a niece ... or sister, or something, of Jon Arryn's had married Rickard Stark -- well, that means Robb has a claim to the Eyrie descending from Jon Arryn's father or grandfather. It would have been nice to hear it mentioned. I think it'd be kind of !good to not have mentioned the fact, so I'll assume it's either some other house (Dustin? Ryswell? The lord of the former and a knight of the latter accompanied him to Dorne) or ... something strange (like an adopted wildling raised by a noble house.) And yeah, Carol, that's exactly what attracts me to it. It'd be a handy way to explain the sudden appearance of wargs and .. well, not greensight, but magical potential in offspring of Ned.
Audrey User ID: 1439244	Oct 3rd 10:07 PM I think that Eddard's mother was Old Nan! THAT is what she was trying to tell them before she died!!!!
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Oct 3rd 10:33 PM I thought that Nan was around before Rickard and was Rickards, then his kids, then his grandkids nanny. We've all speculated that Old Nan is the same lady as the one that Dunk tried to protect, and later followed to Dorne. If that's the case, then she'd be way to old by the time of Eddard's birth to possibly be his mother. Perhaps Eddard's mother was Dornish, and brought Nan with her up North. ab
Kristin User ID: 0317884	Oct 4th 0:09 AM I remember that. I think the exact response to who Ned's mother was "Lady Stark. She died."
Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 4th 2:55 AM Drijj - seriously? Old Nan is the woman Dunk tried to protect from Aerion( or whatever his name was?) - I just can't believe it! that's insane! how can you think about a connection like that?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 4th 3:03 AM Well, it's a potential. It would explain a couple of things -- how Old Nan knows so many stories (she was a puppeteer in her youth),why Hodor is so damned big (Dunk the Tall's grandson or great-grandson), and where Dunk's descendant is (Hodor -- Martin was coy about it when asked.) But, I don't buy it. Where's the olive skin? I should think that would have been mentioned. And you don't really need to be a puppeteer to know stories, nor was Dunk the only tall guy around. Anyhow, I prefer that Littlefinger is Dunk's descendant. ;)
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 4th 3:59 AM Even if Nan was there long before Eddard... perhaps it was an old tradition of the Stark's house that they _all_ married Old Nan? Wonder why Ned broke with that tradition, though... ;-)
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 4th 5:46 AM As to Audrey's Q. B); Perhaps wildfire has some magical properties inherent, considering how the Pyromancers use magic in their production. We know that magic is in the production process, since the production increased markedly with the birth of the dragons. Such mass production of magical devices seems a little weird, but who knows?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 4th 5:51 AM To add; It boils down to two alternatives - either the production process includes magic, because the ingredients are too volatile to safely handle/mix together without the magic. Or the magic makes an ingredient itself, in order to enhance already inherent traits of the wildfire; like almost impossible to snuff out, burns for a long time, etc. The thing sounds like some particularly nasty form of white phosphor, or something.
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 4th 6:50 AM kay, that was what I thought, too. Another thing that came to my mind was: Could there be dragon-fire as an ingredient? Or something related to dragons?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 4th 9:13 AM Instant dragonfire on a box. Shake it a bit, and soon your whole house is in fire. Marvelous at New Year's Eve. Only 99 golden Dragons at W-Mart... ducks away from 'fruits' thrown by Min