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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Orson Scott Card

Back 20 Messages

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 3rd 4:26 PM
Wanna talk about Card? Ender, colombus, and Alvin Maker? the creater of some of the best fantasy and science fiction out there, as well as some of the worst? a man with extreamly high IQ, and extreamly stupid Mormonesque worldviews?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 25th 4:02 PM
Still talking through my hat, here:

Does he really understand it? Or does he simply understand that it matters to others, so he'll affect it to keep them happy?

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 25th 4:44 PM
===Spoilers Galore for Enders Shadow===

Omer: Bean, supposed "smartest person human" wants to keep Ender, possible "second smartest human" from finding out how smart he is. He does not mind others knowing. It strikes me as consistent. Besides, Ender is human and probably had some jealousy of Bean, just as Bean probably had some jealousy of Ender's command. Even very smart people can act emotionally and make conclusions using their emotions.

I don't know what you mean about "understands the concept of gratitude". Sure he understands is, he is very smart, but he initially practices it very little. He is not grateful to the nun who saves him. There is a scene at the beginning where Bean is utterly loathe to hug the nun who has rescued him from the gutter and gotten him a scholarship. However, he does seem to love the female child gang leader who earlier gave him a few (literal) peanuts. Thats a first flicker of "humanity" in a child who develops more and more "humanity" as the story goes on. In Bean's love for this gang leader, I think OSC is saying that every person has a conscience, a light within, which terrible darkness cannot entirely snuff out. Just mho.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jun 26th 1:53 AM
Linda - I don't buy it. I'm sorry. It means Ender has tobe completely blind to something that's going on VERY clearly in the school. Bean is TOTALLY different than anyone else. He's way more of a student, he doesn't play the game - and yet Ender doesn't see that? I find that hard to believe.

Ran/Linda - the 'Gratitude' discussion. At the end of his time with the Nun, he doesn't have anything to gain from making her happy by hugging her. And yet he does. In my book, that's gratitude.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 26th 2:09 AM
I actually gave my copy to a homeless person who reads OSC. She had an address for a while. I gave her a return mail envelope. I never saw it again. OSC signed it. I can't argue the details therefore, sorry.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jun 26th 11:13 AM
Wow... this is a great story... how come did you give your SIGNED copy of a book to anyone? I'd never give away a signed book... I'd never even take it out of my house, unless there is fire :-)

labor
User ID: 0798784 Sep 8th 3:44 AM
Dragonsnake
ser ID: 8430353
Sep 7th 2:00 AM

Labor, Do U, per chance, recall that the best hackers are under age 16? The idea in "Ender's Game" was that the children syill dont have the taboos of grown ups. So they can try a new tactics and reach to new solutions.
Nice book, better tha Alvin series at least.

Omer
User ID: 9551723
Sep 7th 4:15 PM

The point in Ender's Game, is

SPOILER

that the High command knew theyhad to decieve their War Commander - they had to convince him he was playing a GAME. They couldn't have done that to an adult.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Sep 8th 4:28 AM
Dragonsnake, it may be true about the hackers (although I strongly suspect that the older ones just go to work places where attracting public attention is discouraged), but not about, say, chessplayers. In fact, wonderchildren in pure form seem to seldom accomplish anything significant in the end.

SPOILERS For ENDER'S GAME

Omer, I think that you have it backwards. They had to convince Ender that he was playing a game _because_ he was a child, not the other way round.

A few other things which seeme pretty implausible to me:

1). Ender was trained to win every battle. That was IMHO quite a gamble for winning a war. As we well know wars can be won even losing every single battle.
And if some information or extrapolation about the bugs has proved wrong and Ender was defeated once, he would have been shattered. IMHO dealing with defeat should have been an integral part of his training.

2). Ender seemed to have no overview of the general strategy. Pretty dangerous, no? And what genius was defining the general strategy, pray?

3). I would have thought that you can't use the spaceships "intelligently" if you don't know their technical specifications and physics of spaceflight at such velocities.

4). While I appreciate the interesting idea of the Battleroom to teach people 3-dimensional thinking, leadership and rudimentary tactics, I can't see how @#$#@$^START:64
does this work?

labor
User ID: 0798784 Sep 8th 4:28 AM

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Sep 8th 11:03 AM

Back 20 Messages

Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 3rd 4:26 PM Wanna talk about Card? Ender, colombus, and Alvin Maker? the creater of some of the best fantasy and science fiction out there, as well as some of the worst? a man with extreamly high IQ, and extreamly stupid Mormonesque worldviews?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 25th 4:02 PM Still talking through my hat, here: Does he really understand it? Or does he simply understand that it matters to others, so he'll affect it to keep them happy?
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 25th 4:44 PM ===Spoilers Galore for Enders Shadow=== Omer: Bean, supposed "smartest person human" wants to keep Ender, possible "second smartest human" from finding out how smart he is. He does not mind others knowing. It strikes me as consistent. Besides, Ender is human and probably had some jealousy of Bean, just as Bean probably had some jealousy of Ender's command. Even very smart people can act emotionally and make conclusions using their emotions. I don't know what you mean about "understands the concept of gratitude". Sure he understands is, he is very smart, but he initially practices it very little. He is not grateful to the nun who saves him. There is a scene at the beginning where Bean is utterly loathe to hug the nun who has rescued him from the gutter and gotten him a scholarship. However, he does seem to love the female child gang leader who earlier gave him a few (literal) peanuts. Thats a first flicker of "humanity" in a child who develops more and more "humanity" as the story goes on. In Bean's love for this gang leader, I think OSC is saying that every person has a conscience, a light within, which terrible darkness cannot entirely snuff out. Just mho.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jun 26th 1:53 AM Linda - I don't buy it. I'm sorry. It means Ender has tobe completely blind to something that's going on VERY clearly in the school. Bean is TOTALLY different than anyone else. He's way more of a student, he doesn't play the game - and yet Ender doesn't see that? I find that hard to believe. Ran/Linda - the 'Gratitude' discussion. At the end of his time with the Nun, he doesn't have anything to gain from making her happy by hugging her. And yet he does. In my book, that's gratitude.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 26th 2:09 AM I actually gave my copy to a homeless person who reads OSC. She had an address for a while. I gave her a return mail envelope. I never saw it again. OSC signed it. I can't argue the details therefore, sorry.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jun 26th 11:13 AM Wow... this is a great story... how come did you give your SIGNED copy of a book to anyone? I'd never give away a signed book... I'd never even take it out of my house, unless there is fire :-)
labor User ID: 0798784	Sep 8th 3:44 AM Dragonsnake ser ID: 8430353 Sep 7th 2:00 AM Labor, Do U, per chance, recall that the best hackers are under age 16? The idea in "Ender's Game" was that the children syill dont have the taboos of grown ups. So they can try a new tactics and reach to new solutions. Nice book, better tha Alvin series at least. Omer User ID: 9551723 Sep 7th 4:15 PM The point in Ender's Game, is SPOILER that the High command knew theyhad to decieve their War Commander - they had to convince him he was playing a GAME. They couldn't have done that to an adult.
labor User ID: 0798784	Sep 8th 4:28 AM Dragonsnake, it may be true about the hackers (although I strongly suspect that the older ones just go to work places where attracting public attention is discouraged), but not about, say, chessplayers. In fact, wonderchildren in pure form seem to seldom accomplish anything significant in the end. SPOILERS For ENDER'S GAME Omer, I think that you have it backwards. They had to convince Ender that he was playing a game _because_ he was a child, not the other way round. A few other things which seeme pretty implausible to me: 1). Ender was trained to win every battle. That was IMHO quite a gamble for winning a war. As we well know wars can be won even losing every single battle. And if some information or extrapolation about the bugs has proved wrong and Ender was defeated once, he would have been shattered. IMHO dealing with defeat should have been an integral part of his training. 2). Ender seemed to have no overview of the general strategy. Pretty dangerous, no? And what genius was defining the general strategy, pray? 3). I would have thought that you can't use the spaceships "intelligently" if you don't know their technical specifications and physics of spaceflight at such velocities. 4). While I appreciate the interesting idea of the Battleroom to teach people 3-dimensional thinking, leadership and rudimentary tactics, I can't see how @#$#@$^START:64 does this work?
labor User ID: 0798784	Sep 8th 4:28 AM
Omer User ID: 9551723	Sep 8th 11:03 AM