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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Sandman/Neil Gaiman

Sphinx
User ID: 0638514 Oct 17th 2:32 PM
From discussions on 'The Readers' topic, I thought it might be interesting to start up a Sandman/Neil Gaiman thread.

Right. Favourite Story/Story Arc, anyone? I think Dream of a Thousand Cats is one of the most wonderful stories i've read anywhere, and my favourite arc is difficult, but it's probably a toss-up between Master of Dreams (otherwise known as Preludes and Nocturnes), and Season of Mists.

Some of the comments made on 'Readers' were regarding people's attitude towards comics, but I have to say that anyone who has displayed initial incredulousness at the idea of reading a comic, I have quickly cured by making them read a few issues. Usually then quickly followed by them cajoling or begging me for several more.

It is strange how close-minded people can be, though. I heard they change the rules of the World Fantasy Award after Sandman won it for 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' so that comics were ineligible.

BTW, does everyone who's interested know that there's a new Sandman graphic novel coming out by Gaiman and Yoshitaka Amano?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 17th 3:08 PM
Not having read much of Gaiman, I'm going to take this off-topic at once. :o)

About comics - I suppose there could be two reasons (that I can think of right now) for people
to show scorn towards that field of art.

First, there is undoubtedly a lot of crap in comics today, and will continue to be so in the future.
This is an only half-satisfactory explanation, however. There are a bazillion crappy movies around, without people disregarding the whole field as a result.

Second, it could be that people get negative connotations from the name itself - 'comics' by it's very name implies that this isn't something to be taken seriously; it's just fluffy entertainment.

There are probably other reasons as well.

Anyway, my point is that it is a pity if such prejudices towards comics should prevail - it can be so much more. Anyone who doubts the possibilities in this field of art, should read 'Watchmen', a masterpiece in the area. The art is wonderful, the story is good, but the real brilliant thing is the visual techniques and sense of detail that is employed in this story.
A _must_ read.

Having finished venting - you can all now resume your regular scheduled Gaiman discussion. :o)

Swithin
User ID: 0443584 Oct 17th 10:59 PM
Personally (although I have VERY limited experience) I thought that the Orpheas issue was superb. Some of his best and wittiest, challenging yet respectful, blag yet blah... whatever. Just damned good. (of course I'm biased, but still good.)

Of Gaiman's novels I've only read Neverwhere and Good Omens. Both a little... overly accessible, yet his world-crafting skill is eminent in both (you really can pick out his and Terry Pratchett's stuff in Good Omens.) I did thoroughly adore the Neverwhere television series, however. The casting was intimately appropriate.

Especially Door... Mmm... Door...

Sphinx
User ID: 0638514 Oct 18th 3:11 PM
Damn you, Kay, why'd you have to take it off-topic to such a good topic? Watchman is outstanding, and 'visual techniques' is the key phrase here. If a director or cinematographer had done what Alan Moore does in Watchmen, awards would have flooded in (to be fair, they did, but comics awards are less prestigious).

I though the acting in Neverwhere let it down a little, but it was still outstanding. Outside of Sandman, it's (surprise surprise) Gaiman's short stories which are his best stuff (and that's coming from a dedicated novel hack who _never_ reads short stories. 'Angels and Visitations' is an excellent collection.

I'm interested that Orpheus was your favourite, Swithin - which of the Endless do you like best (I find it very hard to pick - probably Desire, though Delirium's a close second).

Swithin
User ID: 0443584 Oct 20th 1:18 AM
Ah, Sphinx, you do get to the point quickly, yes?

Well, everyone I know describes Death simply as a 'babe.' I'm not one to argue. My theory is this... There is the old adage 'if I was the last man in the world, then would you sleep with me?' With Death, you could be the last HUMAN in the world, and you'd still be with a babe. Once humanity has all but vanished, where will Destiny and Desire and Destruction and Dream be? Gone. Death will be lingering about, however, and since I, erm, I mean you, would be her last 'pick up' as it were, you could, erm, fool around in the meantime, right?

Desire is cool, I never jumped on the Delirium train (in many ways,) and Destiny is just a bastard. Olethros is pretty damn cool, he hangs around writing bad poetry much like I do, so he's probably my second favorite of the 'other six.'

Dream is cool, but I think he would be cooler if he wasn't actually the 'hero' of the comic.

Despair? A man? Bullsh*t.

As for Orpheus, being Greek I've loved the story all my life. I thought almost every panel did it justice, and the cover art was amazing. I particularly liked Death's mention that Heracles going to the underworld was just a drunken stupor induced fable. And the love story is ultimately still very touching. I'm just rambling now.

And I agree with you about Neverwhere, but Door was good, the Marquis de Carabas looked awesome (which is all he really had to do,) and Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar took care of everything else.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Oct 20th 4:34 PM
I loved the mythology aspects in it, too (no wonder, given my real name, which happens to be Nike :-)). Sandman himself is my favorite ( no wonder again, me and the drak ones), but aside from him, I love Death. She is all I ever imagined about death, and everyone took me for a fool seeing it so. And then Gaiman came, and Death with him, and I knew he knew. I loved her from the start. She is lighthearted and careless, and yet she can be sad and serious and caring. She is what she is, and there is a job to be done. That's what I love about her.

Sphinx
User ID: 0638514 Oct 24th 2:36 PM
She's certainly a more comforting prospect than some old hooded guy with no skin and a scythe...
I loved the way she talked to the Emperor in 'Three Septembers and a January', and the old Jewish guy in 'The Sound Of Her Wings'.

Swithin
User ID: 2268254 Oct 25th 1:34 AM
Max von Sydow is death for me, sorry. But if he chooses to be a babe when not in The Seventh Seal, that's cool with me. She doesn't play chess enough, bitch. The Pratchett-esque Death in Good Omens is pretty cool too, but not nearly in the same league as our beloved Eternal.

Sphinx
User ID: 0638514 Oct 28th 3:59 PM
BTW:- Min, your real name is Nike? No way! Cool!

Watcher
User ID: 7761613 Oct 29th 12:06 PM
"A Game of You" is my favorite story line in the Sandman series. Gaiman did a fantastic job exploring the issues of identity and gender.
Plus I really liked Theasily, the druid priestess attitude. I also like the way he brings back minor characters and weaves a new story around them.

Sphinx, Swithin where did you find the Neverwhere TV show? I have been looking for it on video tapes for a while and haven't had any luck.

Sphinx
User ID: 0638514 Nov 4th 3:23 PM
I watched Neverwhere on BBC1 or was it BBC2?
I've no idea if it is available on tape. Sorry.

Thessaly is really cool, especially the second time she turns up. I know what you mean about the minor characters. Azrael is really cool (did you notice him in a jar in the chest in 'Ramadan'?), as is Hob and also Eve. The Eve/Matthew thing is strange but brilliant.

I love the way he makes storytelling itself a recurring theme: Dream Of A Thousand Cats, World's End, Exiles, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, etc. etc. The one about 'the people', the gypsy werewolves, was gorgeously done.

Swithin Nov 24th 5:11 AM
Neverwhere aired on PBS here in Seattle. Gaiman wrote Neverwhere originally for the series, which was cast PERFECTLY. Then he converted it into a novel, and now...

Dimension Films (Highlander III, ugh) is making the cinematic version. I still don't know if Gaiman is scripting it, but I can't imagine him not doing so... oh I do hope they keep mr. Croup and mr. Vandemar from the television series.

Any news (confirmed or otherwise) should show up on www.aint-it-cool-news.com before it shows up anywhere else. I've come to trust that site.

Omer
User ID: 9014973 May 18th 12:26 PM
I recently read the first 2 Sandman bits, a I loved them... the second sarc was better, but the first was good too. I especially loved The Sound of Her Wings, a true classic, and Men of Good Fortune - but then I'd have to love Men of Good Fortune as it has a Lou Reed title.

Otherwise I read Gaiman's Good Omens, which I adored, Neverwhere, which I liked, and a couple of short stories I think, all of which were nice.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 May 18th 2:13 PM
I loved reading all of the SANDMAN comics. They
were all at my library and one time I took the
time to read them all.

Gaiman, as well as the people who assisted him,
have a delightful and interesting skill in weaving mythology and History (as in what if this really happened this way) into the storylines.

A couple of years back there were a few scripts for SANDMAN: the movie (based mostly on the first three books) . . . but it fell apart. You can still read two of the scripts free on the web.

STARDUST was bought by Hollywood to make into a movie, too.

Sphinx
User ID: 8882983 May 21st 4:02 PM
For those who don't know, Death: The High Cost of Living is definitely going ahead as a movie, with Neil Gaiman doing the Screenplay and quite possibly directing too. Can't Wait.

Sphinx
User ID: 8882983 May 30th 2:47 PM
Currently re-reading the whole of Sandman (up to 'Thermidor' so far) - does anyone have any opinions on the art? Obviously, Dave McKean's covers are masterful, but on the inside I adore Mike Dringenberg's pastiches, particularly in '24 Hours', 'The Sound of Her Wings' and 'Sound and Fury'. The way he combines photography with the inkwork is outstanding, and especially suits the latter two.

Charles Vess obviously kicks ass, and Michael Zulli is outstanding in The Wake and 'Men Of Good Fortune'. I absolutely detest Marc Hempel, however - he almost ruined 'The Kindly Ones'.

Has anyone seen Dave McKean's work when he does the actual comic art? Cages (which he also wrote) is amazing, and Arkham Asylum and Black Orchid are beautifully painted. His collaborations with Gaiman, particlularly 'Signal to Noise' and 'Violent Cases' are also very well done.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 May 31st 10:26 AM
the one artist who really impressed me, I can't remember his name exactly, is the one who did Men of Good Fortune in the second sandman book. (slight spoiler ahead) he manages to really make every time period very different than the other one, and for that he's commendable in my eyes.

Sphinx User ID: 0638514	Oct 17th 2:32 PM From discussions on 'The Readers' topic, I thought it might be interesting to start up a Sandman/Neil Gaiman thread. Right. Favourite Story/Story Arc, anyone? I think Dream of a Thousand Cats is one of the most wonderful stories i've read anywhere, and my favourite arc is difficult, but it's probably a toss-up between Master of Dreams (otherwise known as Preludes and Nocturnes), and Season of Mists. Some of the comments made on 'Readers' were regarding people's attitude towards comics, but I have to say that anyone who has displayed initial incredulousness at the idea of reading a comic, I have quickly cured by making them read a few issues. Usually then quickly followed by them cajoling or begging me for several more. It is strange how close-minded people can be, though. I heard they change the rules of the World Fantasy Award after Sandman won it for 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' so that comics were ineligible. BTW, does everyone who's interested know that there's a new Sandman graphic novel coming out by Gaiman and Yoshitaka Amano?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 17th 3:08 PM Not having read much of Gaiman, I'm going to take this off-topic at once. :o) About comics - I suppose there could be two reasons (that I can think of right now) for people to show scorn towards that field of art. First, there is undoubtedly a lot of crap in comics today, and will continue to be so in the future. This is an only half-satisfactory explanation, however. There are a bazillion crappy movies around, without people disregarding the whole field as a result. Second, it could be that people get negative connotations from the name itself - 'comics' by it's very name implies that this isn't something to be taken seriously; it's just fluffy entertainment. There are probably other reasons as well. Anyway, my point is that it is a pity if such prejudices towards comics should prevail - it can be so much more. Anyone who doubts the possibilities in this field of art, should read 'Watchmen', a masterpiece in the area. The art is wonderful, the story is good, but the real brilliant thing is the visual techniques and sense of detail that is employed in this story. A _must_ read. Having finished venting - you can all now resume your regular scheduled Gaiman discussion. :o)
Swithin User ID: 0443584	Oct 17th 10:59 PM Personally (although I have VERY limited experience) I thought that the Orpheas issue was superb. Some of his best and wittiest, challenging yet respectful, blag yet blah... whatever. Just damned good. (of course I'm biased, but still good.) Of Gaiman's novels I've only read Neverwhere and Good Omens. Both a little... overly accessible, yet his world-crafting skill is eminent in both (you really can pick out his and Terry Pratchett's stuff in Good Omens.) I did thoroughly adore the Neverwhere television series, however. The casting was intimately appropriate. Especially Door... Mmm... Door...
Sphinx User ID: 0638514	Oct 18th 3:11 PM Damn you, Kay, why'd you have to take it off-topic to such a good topic? Watchman is outstanding, and 'visual techniques' is the key phrase here. If a director or cinematographer had done what Alan Moore does in Watchmen, awards would have flooded in (to be fair, they did, but comics awards are less prestigious). I though the acting in Neverwhere let it down a little, but it was still outstanding. Outside of Sandman, it's (surprise surprise) Gaiman's short stories which are his best stuff (and that's coming from a dedicated novel hack who _never_ reads short stories. 'Angels and Visitations' is an excellent collection. I'm interested that Orpheus was your favourite, Swithin - which of the Endless do you like best (I find it very hard to pick - probably Desire, though Delirium's a close second).
Swithin User ID: 0443584	Oct 20th 1:18 AM Ah, Sphinx, you do get to the point quickly, yes? Well, everyone I know describes Death simply as a 'babe.' I'm not one to argue. My theory is this... There is the old adage 'if I was the last man in the world, then would you sleep with me?' With Death, you could be the last HUMAN in the world, and you'd still be with a babe. Once humanity has all but vanished, where will Destiny and Desire and Destruction and Dream be? Gone. Death will be lingering about, however, and since I, erm, I mean you, would be her last 'pick up' as it were, you could, erm, fool around in the meantime, right? Desire is cool, I never jumped on the Delirium train (in many ways,) and Destiny is just a bastard. Olethros is pretty damn cool, he hangs around writing bad poetry much like I do, so he's probably my second favorite of the 'other six.' Dream is cool, but I think he would be cooler if he wasn't actually the 'hero' of the comic. Despair? A man? Bullsh*t. As for Orpheus, being Greek I've loved the story all my life. I thought almost every panel did it justice, and the cover art was amazing. I particularly liked Death's mention that Heracles going to the underworld was just a drunken stupor induced fable. And the love story is ultimately still very touching. I'm just rambling now. And I agree with you about Neverwhere, but Door was good, the Marquis de Carabas looked awesome (which is all he really had to do,) and Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar took care of everything else.
Min User ID: 9433023	Oct 20th 4:34 PM I loved the mythology aspects in it, too (no wonder, given my real name, which happens to be Nike :-)). Sandman himself is my favorite ( no wonder again, me and the drak ones), but aside from him, I love Death. She is all I ever imagined about death, and everyone took me for a fool seeing it so. And then Gaiman came, and Death with him, and I knew he knew. I loved her from the start. She is lighthearted and careless, and yet she can be sad and serious and caring. She is what she is, and there is a job to be done. That's what I love about her.
Sphinx User ID: 0638514	Oct 24th 2:36 PM She's certainly a more comforting prospect than some old hooded guy with no skin and a scythe... I loved the way she talked to the Emperor in 'Three Septembers and a January', and the old Jewish guy in 'The Sound Of Her Wings'.
Swithin User ID: 2268254	Oct 25th 1:34 AM Max von Sydow is death for me, sorry. But if he chooses to be a babe when not in The Seventh Seal, that's cool with me. She doesn't play chess enough, bitch. The Pratchett-esque Death in Good Omens is pretty cool too, but not nearly in the same league as our beloved Eternal.
Sphinx User ID: 0638514	Oct 28th 3:59 PM BTW:- Min, your real name is Nike? No way! Cool!
Watcher User ID: 7761613	Oct 29th 12:06 PM "A Game of You" is my favorite story line in the Sandman series. Gaiman did a fantastic job exploring the issues of identity and gender. Plus I really liked Theasily, the druid priestess attitude. I also like the way he brings back minor characters and weaves a new story around them. Sphinx, Swithin where did you find the Neverwhere TV show? I have been looking for it on video tapes for a while and haven't had any luck.
Sphinx User ID: 0638514	Nov 4th 3:23 PM I watched Neverwhere on BBC1 or was it BBC2? I've no idea if it is available on tape. Sorry. Thessaly is really cool, especially the second time she turns up. I know what you mean about the minor characters. Azrael is really cool (did you notice him in a jar in the chest in 'Ramadan'?), as is Hob and also Eve. The Eve/Matthew thing is strange but brilliant. I love the way he makes storytelling itself a recurring theme: Dream Of A Thousand Cats, World's End, Exiles, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, etc. etc. The one about 'the people', the gypsy werewolves, was gorgeously done.
Swithin	Nov 24th 5:11 AM Neverwhere aired on PBS here in Seattle. Gaiman wrote Neverwhere originally for the series, which was cast PERFECTLY. Then he converted it into a novel, and now... Dimension Films (Highlander III, ugh) is making the cinematic version. I still don't know if Gaiman is scripting it, but I can't imagine him not doing so... oh I do hope they keep mr. Croup and mr. Vandemar from the television series. Any news (confirmed or otherwise) should show up on www.aint-it-cool-news.com before it shows up anywhere else. I've come to trust that site.
Omer User ID: 9014973	May 18th 12:26 PM I recently read the first 2 Sandman bits, a I loved them... the second sarc was better, but the first was good too. I especially loved The Sound of Her Wings, a true classic, and Men of Good Fortune - but then I'd have to love Men of Good Fortune as it has a Lou Reed title. Otherwise I read Gaiman's Good Omens, which I adored, Neverwhere, which I liked, and a couple of short stories I think, all of which were nice.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	May 18th 2:13 PM I loved reading all of the SANDMAN comics. They were all at my library and one time I took the time to read them all. Gaiman, as well as the people who assisted him, have a delightful and interesting skill in weaving mythology and History (as in what if this really happened this way) into the storylines. A couple of years back there were a few scripts for SANDMAN: the movie (based mostly on the first three books) . . . but it fell apart. You can still read two of the scripts free on the web. STARDUST was bought by Hollywood to make into a movie, too.
Sphinx User ID: 8882983	May 21st 4:02 PM For those who don't know, Death: The High Cost of Living is definitely going ahead as a movie, with Neil Gaiman doing the Screenplay and quite possibly directing too. Can't Wait.
Sphinx User ID: 8882983	May 30th 2:47 PM Currently re-reading the whole of Sandman (up to 'Thermidor' so far) - does anyone have any opinions on the art? Obviously, Dave McKean's covers are masterful, but on the inside I adore Mike Dringenberg's pastiches, particularly in '24 Hours', 'The Sound of Her Wings' and 'Sound and Fury'. The way he combines photography with the inkwork is outstanding, and especially suits the latter two. Charles Vess obviously kicks ass, and Michael Zulli is outstanding in The Wake and 'Men Of Good Fortune'. I absolutely detest Marc Hempel, however - he almost ruined 'The Kindly Ones'. Has anyone seen Dave McKean's work when he does the actual comic art? Cages (which he also wrote) is amazing, and Arkham Asylum and Black Orchid are beautifully painted. His collaborations with Gaiman, particlularly 'Signal to Noise' and 'Violent Cases' are also very well done.
Omer User ID: 9551723	May 31st 10:26 AM the one artist who really impressed me, I can't remember his name exactly, is the one who did Men of Good Fortune in the second sandman book. (slight spoiler ahead) he manages to really make every time period very different than the other one, and for that he's commendable in my eyes.