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Next 20 Messages

labor
User ID: 0798784 Feb 10th 6:25 AM
In order to escape the flourishing discussion about prostitution, the ten commandements, etc. I'll just transfer the book discussion here.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Feb 10th 6:42 AM
Anyway, I've read "Queen of Darkness" by Anne Bishop, the third book of her trilogy. And, sorry Ran, it just didn't improve the impression I've got from the second book.

I.e. a foretold, immensly powerful heroine, born for her task. The good guys adore her, the bad guys hate and constantly try to rape/use her. A clear-thinking baddie like Littlefinger or Tywin Lannister would have just killed her, but no... Cute, magical, thinking and talking animals. The baddies are so bad and twisted that they don't have a redeeming quality between them. The only moderately interesting and complex "baddie" is Queen Alexandra (?), but she is too weak to do anything important.
And of course, all and every plots of the bad guys are discovered in time and beaten back with a loss. Even if one does need deus ex machina do catch every one of them. Unsurprisingly, all successes of the good guys for no discernible reason only make it worse (or there wouldn't be any plot at all).

I appreciate that the good guys are rather lethal to the bad guys and not meek and forgiving, but their constant "snarliness", "fussing" and "killing edge" does grate on one's nerves after a while.

BTW, isn't it strange that rape and forcing (of females by males) are such prevalent features in an essentially matriarchal culture? A typical sign of woman's writing, IMHO.

Not that there aren't a few neat ideas here and there - the magic system, the world setting, even the dark sexual atmosphere... The Ring of hmm.... Obedience ;) ;).

SPOILERS

BTW, I really don't understand why the whole piligrimage of the immensely powerful supporting cast into captivity was necessary. Sure, deaths of Hekatah and Dorothea wouldn't have stopped the war (although Tereille didn't really have leaders worth their salt except for them), but I think that killing the two Red-Jeweled Queens would still be preferrable to being tortured by them or pretending to torture others for their pleasure. But that's me.

No real sacrifice (on the part of main characters) in the end.

BTW, what is Dorothea's connection to Sa'Diabolo family? Hekatah, apparently was Saetan's wife who for some reason took his name instead of vice-versa, but is Dorothea Saetan's sister or something?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 10th 10:48 AM
Err ... strange about rape in matriarchy?

You really need to read the first book. It sets up everything. Essentially, Dorothea perverted the proper way of the Blood to try to make herself be treated like a true Queen. She fostered like-minded Witches and destroyed (through rape, which will destroy a woman's power) those who were likely to be more powerful than her.

Given that the Jewels and the Blood are so closely tied to biological imperatives, the link between sexuality and power is obvious. 8,000 years ago, that sort of twisting wouldn't exist.

Though _constantly_ trying to rape her is overstating it. Indeed, only _one_ true attempt. The other "attempt" was aimed at trying to force her to bend to a male will and become easily controllable (through generous application of drugs). But after that? Nothing.

As to why they didn't try to kill her -- Hekatah and Dorothea both saw they needed to be able to use her as a puppet to lift them to the pinnacles of power they wanted. The situation in the books is extremely unusual -- no one (save Saetan in Hell) has ever ruled an entire realm. But that's what Hekatah and Dorothea aspire to, and for several thousand (or tens of thousands, in Hekatah's case) years they've failed.

The only mistake they make, really, is trusting Daemon at the end. Big mistake. ;)

As to ... hrm .. cute talking animals? Kaelas ripping a man apart and defecating in his entrails is _cute_? Like the characters, the 800 pound cat gets to do whatever he pleases. Heh.

Alexandra and Phillip Alexander and Leland are, in one way or another, important figures. They're pretty important in the first book, but when that ends, Jaenelle is raised.

No sacrifice? Hrm. Saetan was more alive than demon dead at the start of the book, able (for the first time in quite a lot of centuries) to have normal relations with a woman -- and he was in love, to boot. And he's lost that entirely.

Hell's demon dead went poof -- though maybe it isn't that noticeable, since Prothvar, Andulvar, Char, etc. are most active in the first book -- and that particular scene was ... very sad. That's loss, too.

Finally, Dorothea married a distant, distant descendant of Saetan and Hekatah's children, Laszlo SaDiablo. He's dead I think. Apparently, Kartane (Dorothea's son) is _not_ Laszlo's son, though I don't believe he realizes it.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 10th 10:56 AM
Just to add on:

I have to emphasize that it's really one cohesive novel with three distinct arcs .. but it's all very dependent on the first book to set everything up. Something like C.S. Friedman -- where each novel is relatively self contained -- is easy to read out of order ... but, perhaps Bishop's "flaw" is that her books don't quite work that way.

It's probably too late to start fresh with the series from book one and see how it all works. But I think, if you had started from the first book and read from there, your impression of the series might have been rather different.

At least, trying to put myself in your shoes, I can see how the series wouldn't quite work. So much essential foundation is laid in the first third of the book. While each book tries to give some rough coverage of what went on before, it doesn't capture the depth or breadth of what the novels cover.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Feb 10th 1:31 PM
Sorry, Ran, that just isn't it. I often read series out of order because my preferred method of chosing new things to read is to go into a bookshop on Saturday and to browse. I read quite quickly, so if I like the style, I read a chapter or two of the book and if it grips me, I buy it. Given where I am based, however, the English book I see and like often is a 2nd or even a 3rd of a series. I have only recently began to chose my reading according to recommandations on the internet too, and am not quite happy with it.

Anyway, I've read the "Farseer trilogy" by Robin Hobb in the same order, i.e. 2-3-1, "Wheel of Time" (for the first time) 3-4-1-2-5-6-7, Cherryh's "Hanur" series 1-4-5 etc, etc. It may not be optimal, but it detracts nothing from the quality, IMHO.

As to "perversion" of the ways of the Blood fostered by Dorothea, I have noticed it. It is just somewhat strange to me, that rape breaks female power and not the male one and that Dorothea would want to foster the rape-prone and male-dominant attitudes amongst the males who were not under her direct control.

Also, I'd count the one time when Janelle was drugged in order to accept sex from the consort they chose as an attempted rape, too. That's how it is seen in law nowadays.

Anyway, if Dorothea (and Hekatah) failed to use Daemon and Lucivar to their best advantage (where "nature" would be on their side), why on earth did they make a classic erroneous EO assumtion that they'd fare better with Janelle? A clever EO would have recognized that people so powerful are double-edged swords prone to cut the hand which wields them and saw to it that the Witch was safely dead.

And, yes, the Kindred _are_ cute by and large. Landvarian, Greysfang, even Kaelas. Size has little to do with cuteness. "Oh, she is so snarly today", Bleh! Stark direwolves weren't cute even as pups and I sincerely hope that they never talk ;) ;)

Sacrifices... Well, Saetan lost his virility... But given how he lived 50K years at that point already and was able to be intimate with women for 48K from them... It just doesn't seem an adequately great one. Yes, the scene of the sacrifice of demon-dead was moving. It would have been much more so if Saetan was among them, IMHO. Yes, the protagonists payed, but... definitely not enough for such build-up.

It would be much more challenging, IMHO if they really had to choose - i.e. if Daemon really had to torture and kill Lucivar, Saetan and Co to buy the time (why didn't he just kill the two bitches and freed them all, BTW?), if Janelle really had died or at least lost all her powers, etc, if Saetan had to sacrifice himself together with the other demons-dead. As it is everyone who matters rides into the sunset, more or less. Even the First circle is largely intact, except for Morton. Too cheap a victory to be satisfying, IMHO. Heaps of the dead guys left in their wake, BTW, even before the big bang occures.

I say, we should agree to disagree on Bishop.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 10th 2:18 PM
Breaking a man sexually takes about the same amount of tremendous effort as breaking a woman after she's already had her virgin night (which, BTW, is why I don't quite consider the second attempt "rape" in the sense -- the first effort was to break her power, the second simply to control her.) But a man _can_ be broken -- it's just more difficult.

Daughter really covers best how the situation exists as it does. Consider it the first third of a single novel, with all the foundation. The Ring of Obedience gives her a tremendous amount of control. In particular, seeign how Kartane came to his sadistic pleasures is a very good encapsulation of what she wants. Males both in her direct and indirect control often came to this (why there's something like 70% of the Blood in Hayll destroyed or broken back to basic Craft.)

The only reason Lucivar and Daemon were kept alive was, initially, to get the dark-blooded bloodline. Lucivar was sterile (apparently by some sort of unconscious Craft that he never figured out -- probably equivalent to how Witches can spontaneously abort pregnancies by will) and Daemon was impotent.

Later on Lucivar and Daemon were sometimes used to purposefully destroy courts of Queens who didn't fall under her thumb. A bit scattershot, but it worked at points. But using them as puppets, on the other hand, was rather impossible -- a man cannot rule (save Saetan and Daemon for that hundred year stretch -- another thing in _Daughter_). Just as a Priestess can't rule (which is the problem Hekatah and Dorothea can't get around -- they're Priestesses, not Queen, but they want to be Queens.)

Actually, I thought Nymeria was very cute when she was a muddy mess who refused to let Arya brush her, or a silly thing half covered in her clothing. ;) Lady was always rather cute, though we don't see her too often.

Saetan was actually _not_ capable of being intimate with women for those 50,000 years. He managed a particularly difficult spell/potion (it's never really defined) to impregnate Tersa and (by accident) Luthvien after Dorothea and the Hourglass Coven begged him to try to re-introduce a dark-blooded lineage into Hayll. But that was only temporary (in the second book, his confrontration with Luthvien makes this explicit -- he thought its effects had more or less passed.)

Jaenelle's restorative drink is what made it work this time -- and this over some 10 years of taking it. If he hadn't been so cruelly tortured by Hekatah and Dorothea, he probably could have gone on in that state for a hundred or four years.

As to why he didn't kill them, if he did (and he had the power to destroy the army around them as well), there were five or six other armies just as large that would jump early and attack. Jaenelle needed 72 undisturbed hours, and she wanted _no one_ of the true Blood to be harmed. I forget the page or pages where this is covered, but it was clear.

Same with her not going to war directly. Her tangled web showed that, if she had gone to war with Terrielle, all the Queens and Warlord Princes of Kaeleer would have died. And goodness knows how much other destruction. There's a reason no one's gone to war for 50,000 years or so.

I've no problem with disagreeing on it -- I can see where you're coming from -- but so many of your points seem based on things you missed from _Daughter_ that I think your opinion on many points would be different if you had started it in order. Some of the issues aren't necessarily "fixed," being personal preference for you. But others are pretty well explained in the context of the series.

Sphinx
User ID: 8882983 Feb 15th 4:07 PM
Sorry about the 'recommended reading' thread. It _started_ on topic, honest... :)

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 19th 11:20 AM
Well, seeing how this isn't a _recommended_ reading thread, I'll mention a rather weird book I have just read. It is "Sewer, Gas @ Electric" by Matt Ruff and it is... strange. A mixture of political pamphlet, society satire, SF and parody with IMHO some definitely Prachett'ian turns thrown in, as well as some extensive critics of Objectivism.
And while it is pretty well-written and I don't have to wonder now what those monstrous interenet discussions about Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" were all about, I can't really say why I rather liked it. Normally such books definitely aren't my cup of tea.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 26th 6:05 AM
Read "Do Androids dream of electric sheep?" by Philip.K.Dick and was very disappointed. To think that many on rawsf thought it to be one of the 10 best SF books of the century!

The man can write, I'll grant you, but the story seems enormously contrived and internally contradictory. And I don't mean the scientific details here. Also, he shamelessly milks reader's emotions. Everything to roil them up, to stoke the melodrama! Even as a parabel only... it still falls short, IMHO.
I wonder if all of Dick is like this?

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 26th 6:56 AM
Er...isn't Blade Runner based on that one?

In any case, labor, rest assured - _all_ Dick does not fall short. ;P

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 26th 7:26 AM
Yea, KAH, I have heard so. Unfortunately I have never seen it and anyway I have heard that it is a very "creative" adaptation. Maybe not on the level of "Solaris", but not very far either.

What books of his would you reccomend?

Greyjoy
User ID: 0860834 Mar 26th 7:50 AM
Hey Labor,
I read a little ways up that you've read Robin Hobb. What's your take on her? I think she's one of the premier fantasy authors in the field now. She is also similar to Martin in that writing is extremely reality based. She's definately not afraid to drag a lead character through hell for an entire trilogy either(Fitz for example. Boy was that sad)

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 26th 8:05 AM
I love Hobb, Greyjoy. For the moment she is in my 10 of favourite fantasy authors. OTOH, I actually love "Liveship Traders" more than "Farseers" at the moment, although the spoilers for "The Ship of Destiny" (have you read it?) suggest rather too pat an ending.
I think that "Assassin's Apprentice" was brilliant, "Royal Assassin" good and "Assassin's Quest" so-so (but still head and shoulders over run-of-the-mill fantasy). I loved the beginning and the bitter-sweet ending of the "Assassin's Quest", but hated the travelogue filled with Fitz escaping, being caught, beaten, escaping again, remix and repeat etc.
What irritated me from the second book onwards was how villains were constantly umasked and then let of the hook. IMHO both Shrewd and Verity acted as bumbling idiots in this. Also, the whole Outislander plot line remained very schematic.

BTW, I also read one of her "Lindholm" novels - "Cloven Hooves". It is very different - urban fantasy with a psychological bend, but also very, very, good. Only to be found in second-hand bookstores, unfortunately.

Greyjoy
User ID: 0860834 Mar 26th 8:11 AM
No, I haven't read the outline for Ship of Destiny yet. I can't wait for it to come out !
Anyways, Hobb is right up there with Martin for me. Her assassins trilogy was brilliant even though I was soured by the ending. Why the hell did she she have to leave Fitz as she did. I know , its good she didn't give us a usual happily ever after ending but, I was close to shedding a few tears (no shame there)Also, wasn't nighteyes one of the best characters you've ever seen?
I work at a bookstore, and I tell people that the Liveship trilogy is arguably even better than her assassins trilogy, so I agree with you there. I hope she keeps pumping out premier stuff.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 26th 8:29 AM
"Ship of Destiny" is already out in the UK, Geyjoy, but unfortunately it hasn't made its way here yet.
And I loved ending of the "Farseers". Verity's death and Fitz's exile really drove home the realisation how grave was the danger they averted and how difficult and costly their victory. I love such endings. In fact, I am very much afraid that ending of "Liveship Traders" will be sub-par in comparison, although I love how the second trilogy is constructed. No faceless evil, for starters and all threads really hang together.

BTW, there is an interview with Hobb at www.voyager-book.com where she says that she has begun writing the second "Farseer" series and that she isn't yet sure, but she might explore the Outislands in it.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 26th 8:41 AM
Labor;

Read Dick? Er...I made a joke.

(yeah, yeah, I know, it was horribly lame...)

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 26th 8:43 AM
Whooo....waitaminute. Hobb is writing a second Farseer series?
Does this take place long after the first? (I always had the feeling that there were a lot of loose ends left up in the air...)

Greyjoy
User ID: 0860834 Mar 26th 8:47 AM
Are you serious labor!!!!????
Hobb is constructing a second Farseer series? How many books? Is Fitz back in it? What can you tell me? I'll definately check out that interview!
I agree, also with you about the ending of the assassins trilogy. Even though it pained me to read, it showed that Hobb wasn't willing to sell out and give us some contrived Bull S***.
And yes, the Liveship traders story seems more compact in its construction. I also hope we don't get a stereotypical ending where everyone is happy for all time.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 26th 8:54 AM
Sorry, folks, I have no insider info beyond what is said in the interview. OTOH, there is a good Hobb homepage at:

home-1.worldonline.nl/~wjtimmer/Robinhobb.htm

Nenz
User ID: 9182423 Mar 26th 9:14 AM
I've got some info gleaned from a book signing event. The book will be based around Fitz she was apparently 100 pages into the first book. She has got a contract for an another trilogy.

labor, do you have a URL for that interview?

Next 20 Messages

labor User ID: 0798784	Feb 10th 6:25 AM In order to escape the flourishing discussion about prostitution, the ten commandements, etc. I'll just transfer the book discussion here.
labor User ID: 0798784	Feb 10th 6:42 AM Anyway, I've read "Queen of Darkness" by Anne Bishop, the third book of her trilogy. And, sorry Ran, it just didn't improve the impression I've got from the second book. I.e. a foretold, immensly powerful heroine, born for her task. The good guys adore her, the bad guys hate and constantly try to rape/use her. A clear-thinking baddie like Littlefinger or Tywin Lannister would have just killed her, but no... Cute, magical, thinking and talking animals. The baddies are so bad and twisted that they don't have a redeeming quality between them. The only moderately interesting and complex "baddie" is Queen Alexandra (?), but she is too weak to do anything important. And of course, all and every plots of the bad guys are discovered in time and beaten back with a loss. Even if one does need deus ex machina do catch every one of them. Unsurprisingly, all successes of the good guys for no discernible reason only make it worse (or there wouldn't be any plot at all). I appreciate that the good guys are rather lethal to the bad guys and not meek and forgiving, but their constant "snarliness", "fussing" and "killing edge" does grate on one's nerves after a while. BTW, isn't it strange that rape and forcing (of females by males) are such prevalent features in an essentially matriarchal culture? A typical sign of woman's writing, IMHO. Not that there aren't a few neat ideas here and there - the magic system, the world setting, even the dark sexual atmosphere... The Ring of hmm.... Obedience ;) ;). SPOILERS BTW, I really don't understand why the whole piligrimage of the immensely powerful supporting cast into captivity was necessary. Sure, deaths of Hekatah and Dorothea wouldn't have stopped the war (although Tereille didn't really have leaders worth their salt except for them), but I think that killing the two Red-Jeweled Queens would still be preferrable to being tortured by them or pretending to torture others for their pleasure. But that's me. No real sacrifice (on the part of main characters) in the end. BTW, what is Dorothea's connection to Sa'Diabolo family? Hekatah, apparently was Saetan's wife who for some reason took his name instead of vice-versa, but is Dorothea Saetan's sister or something?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 10th 10:48 AM Err ... strange about rape in matriarchy? You really need to read the first book. It sets up everything. Essentially, Dorothea perverted the proper way of the Blood to try to make herself be treated like a true Queen. She fostered like-minded Witches and destroyed (through rape, which will destroy a woman's power) those who were likely to be more powerful than her. Given that the Jewels and the Blood are so closely tied to biological imperatives, the link between sexuality and power is obvious. 8,000 years ago, that sort of twisting wouldn't exist. Though _constantly_ trying to rape her is overstating it. Indeed, only _one_ true attempt. The other "attempt" was aimed at trying to force her to bend to a male will and become easily controllable (through generous application of drugs). But after that? Nothing. As to why they didn't try to kill her -- Hekatah and Dorothea both saw they needed to be able to use her as a puppet to lift them to the pinnacles of power they wanted. The situation in the books is extremely unusual -- no one (save Saetan in Hell) has ever ruled an entire realm. But that's what Hekatah and Dorothea aspire to, and for several thousand (or tens of thousands, in Hekatah's case) years they've failed. The only mistake they make, really, is trusting Daemon at the end. Big mistake. ;) As to ... hrm .. cute talking animals? Kaelas ripping a man apart and defecating in his entrails is _cute_? Like the characters, the 800 pound cat gets to do whatever he pleases. Heh. Alexandra and Phillip Alexander and Leland are, in one way or another, important figures. They're pretty important in the first book, but when that ends, Jaenelle is raised. No sacrifice? Hrm. Saetan was more alive than demon dead at the start of the book, able (for the first time in quite a lot of centuries) to have normal relations with a woman -- and he was in love, to boot. And he's lost that entirely. Hell's demon dead went poof -- though maybe it isn't that noticeable, since Prothvar, Andulvar, Char, etc. are most active in the first book -- and that particular scene was ... very sad. That's loss, too. Finally, Dorothea married a distant, distant descendant of Saetan and Hekatah's children, Laszlo SaDiablo. He's dead I think. Apparently, Kartane (Dorothea's son) is _not_ Laszlo's son, though I don't believe he realizes it.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 10th 10:56 AM Just to add on: I have to emphasize that it's really one cohesive novel with three distinct arcs .. but it's all very dependent on the first book to set everything up. Something like C.S. Friedman -- where each novel is relatively self contained -- is easy to read out of order ... but, perhaps Bishop's "flaw" is that her books don't quite work that way. It's probably too late to start fresh with the series from book one and see how it all works. But I think, if you had started from the first book and read from there, your impression of the series might have been rather different. At least, trying to put myself in your shoes, I can see how the series wouldn't quite work. So much essential foundation is laid in the first third of the book. While each book tries to give some rough coverage of what went on before, it doesn't capture the depth or breadth of what the novels cover.
labor User ID: 0798784	Feb 10th 1:31 PM Sorry, Ran, that just isn't it. I often read series out of order because my preferred method of chosing new things to read is to go into a bookshop on Saturday and to browse. I read quite quickly, so if I like the style, I read a chapter or two of the book and if it grips me, I buy it. Given where I am based, however, the English book I see and like often is a 2nd or even a 3rd of a series. I have only recently began to chose my reading according to recommandations on the internet too, and am not quite happy with it. Anyway, I've read the "Farseer trilogy" by Robin Hobb in the same order, i.e. 2-3-1, "Wheel of Time" (for the first time) 3-4-1-2-5-6-7, Cherryh's "Hanur" series 1-4-5 etc, etc. It may not be optimal, but it detracts nothing from the quality, IMHO. As to "perversion" of the ways of the Blood fostered by Dorothea, I have noticed it. It is just somewhat strange to me, that rape breaks female power and not the male one and that Dorothea would want to foster the rape-prone and male-dominant attitudes amongst the males who were not under her direct control. Also, I'd count the one time when Janelle was drugged in order to accept sex from the consort they chose as an attempted rape, too. That's how it is seen in law nowadays. Anyway, if Dorothea (and Hekatah) failed to use Daemon and Lucivar to their best advantage (where "nature" would be on their side), why on earth did they make a classic erroneous EO assumtion that they'd fare better with Janelle? A clever EO would have recognized that people so powerful are double-edged swords prone to cut the hand which wields them and saw to it that the Witch was safely dead. And, yes, the Kindred _are_ cute by and large. Landvarian, Greysfang, even Kaelas. Size has little to do with cuteness. "Oh, she is so snarly today", Bleh! Stark direwolves weren't cute even as pups and I sincerely hope that they never talk ;) ;) Sacrifices... Well, Saetan lost his virility... But given how he lived 50K years at that point already and was able to be intimate with women for 48K from them... It just doesn't seem an adequately great one. Yes, the scene of the sacrifice of demon-dead was moving. It would have been much more so if Saetan was among them, IMHO. Yes, the protagonists payed, but... definitely not enough for such build-up. It would be much more challenging, IMHO if they really had to choose - i.e. if Daemon really had to torture and kill Lucivar, Saetan and Co to buy the time (why didn't he just kill the two bitches and freed them all, BTW?), if Janelle really had died or at least lost all her powers, etc, if Saetan had to sacrifice himself together with the other demons-dead. As it is everyone who matters rides into the sunset, more or less. Even the First circle is largely intact, except for Morton. Too cheap a victory to be satisfying, IMHO. Heaps of the dead guys left in their wake, BTW, even before the big bang occures. I say, we should agree to disagree on Bishop.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 10th 2:18 PM Breaking a man sexually takes about the same amount of tremendous effort as breaking a woman after she's already had her virgin night (which, BTW, is why I don't quite consider the second attempt "rape" in the sense -- the first effort was to break her power, the second simply to control her.) But a man _can_ be broken -- it's just more difficult. Daughter really covers best how the situation exists as it does. Consider it the first third of a single novel, with all the foundation. The Ring of Obedience gives her a tremendous amount of control. In particular, seeign how Kartane came to his sadistic pleasures is a very good encapsulation of what she wants. Males both in her direct and indirect control often came to this (why there's something like 70% of the Blood in Hayll destroyed or broken back to basic Craft.) The only reason Lucivar and Daemon were kept alive was, initially, to get the dark-blooded bloodline. Lucivar was sterile (apparently by some sort of unconscious Craft that he never figured out -- probably equivalent to how Witches can spontaneously abort pregnancies by will) and Daemon was impotent. Later on Lucivar and Daemon were sometimes used to purposefully destroy courts of Queens who didn't fall under her thumb. A bit scattershot, but it worked at points. But using them as puppets, on the other hand, was rather impossible -- a man cannot rule (save Saetan and Daemon for that hundred year stretch -- another thing in _Daughter_). Just as a Priestess can't rule (which is the problem Hekatah and Dorothea can't get around -- they're Priestesses, not Queen, but they want to be Queens.) Actually, I thought Nymeria was very cute when she was a muddy mess who refused to let Arya brush her, or a silly thing half covered in her clothing. ;) Lady was always rather cute, though we don't see her too often. Saetan was actually _not_ capable of being intimate with women for those 50,000 years. He managed a particularly difficult spell/potion (it's never really defined) to impregnate Tersa and (by accident) Luthvien after Dorothea and the Hourglass Coven begged him to try to re-introduce a dark-blooded lineage into Hayll. But that was only temporary (in the second book, his confrontration with Luthvien makes this explicit -- he thought its effects had more or less passed.) Jaenelle's restorative drink is what made it work this time -- and this over some 10 years of taking it. If he hadn't been so cruelly tortured by Hekatah and Dorothea, he probably could have gone on in that state for a hundred or four years. As to why he didn't kill them, if he did (and he had the power to destroy the army around them as well), there were five or six other armies just as large that would jump early and attack. Jaenelle needed 72 undisturbed hours, and she wanted _no one_ of the true Blood to be harmed. I forget the page or pages where this is covered, but it was clear. Same with her not going to war directly. Her tangled web showed that, if she had gone to war with Terrielle, all the Queens and Warlord Princes of Kaeleer would have died. And goodness knows how much other destruction. There's a reason no one's gone to war for 50,000 years or so. I've no problem with disagreeing on it -- I can see where you're coming from -- but so many of your points seem based on things you missed from _Daughter_ that I think your opinion on many points would be different if you had started it in order. Some of the issues aren't necessarily "fixed," being personal preference for you. But others are pretty well explained in the context of the series.
Sphinx User ID: 8882983	Feb 15th 4:07 PM Sorry about the 'recommended reading' thread. It _started_ on topic, honest... :)
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 19th 11:20 AM Well, seeing how this isn't a _recommended_ reading thread, I'll mention a rather weird book I have just read. It is "Sewer, Gas @ Electric" by Matt Ruff and it is... strange. A mixture of political pamphlet, society satire, SF and parody with IMHO some definitely Prachett'ian turns thrown in, as well as some extensive critics of Objectivism. And while it is pretty well-written and I don't have to wonder now what those monstrous interenet discussions about Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" were all about, I can't really say why I rather liked it. Normally such books definitely aren't my cup of tea.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 26th 6:05 AM Read "Do Androids dream of electric sheep?" by Philip.K.Dick and was very disappointed. To think that many on rawsf thought it to be one of the 10 best SF books of the century! The man can write, I'll grant you, but the story seems enormously contrived and internally contradictory. And I don't mean the scientific details here. Also, he shamelessly milks reader's emotions. Everything to roil them up, to stoke the melodrama! Even as a parabel only... it still falls short, IMHO. I wonder if all of Dick is like this?
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 26th 6:56 AM Er...isn't Blade Runner based on that one? In any case, labor, rest assured - _all_ Dick does not fall short. ;P
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 26th 7:26 AM Yea, KAH, I have heard so. Unfortunately I have never seen it and anyway I have heard that it is a very "creative" adaptation. Maybe not on the level of "Solaris", but not very far either. What books of his would you reccomend?
Greyjoy User ID: 0860834	Mar 26th 7:50 AM Hey Labor, I read a little ways up that you've read Robin Hobb. What's your take on her? I think she's one of the premier fantasy authors in the field now. She is also similar to Martin in that writing is extremely reality based. She's definately not afraid to drag a lead character through hell for an entire trilogy either(Fitz for example. Boy was that sad)
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 26th 8:05 AM I love Hobb, Greyjoy. For the moment she is in my 10 of favourite fantasy authors. OTOH, I actually love "Liveship Traders" more than "Farseers" at the moment, although the spoilers for "The Ship of Destiny" (have you read it?) suggest rather too pat an ending. I think that "Assassin's Apprentice" was brilliant, "Royal Assassin" good and "Assassin's Quest" so-so (but still head and shoulders over run-of-the-mill fantasy). I loved the beginning and the bitter-sweet ending of the "Assassin's Quest", but hated the travelogue filled with Fitz escaping, being caught, beaten, escaping again, remix and repeat etc. What irritated me from the second book onwards was how villains were constantly umasked and then let of the hook. IMHO both Shrewd and Verity acted as bumbling idiots in this. Also, the whole Outislander plot line remained very schematic. BTW, I also read one of her "Lindholm" novels - "Cloven Hooves". It is very different - urban fantasy with a psychological bend, but also very, very, good. Only to be found in second-hand bookstores, unfortunately.
Greyjoy User ID: 0860834	Mar 26th 8:11 AM No, I haven't read the outline for Ship of Destiny yet. I can't wait for it to come out ! Anyways, Hobb is right up there with Martin for me. Her assassins trilogy was brilliant even though I was soured by the ending. Why the hell did she she have to leave Fitz as she did. I know , its good she didn't give us a usual happily ever after ending but, I was close to shedding a few tears (no shame there)Also, wasn't nighteyes one of the best characters you've ever seen? I work at a bookstore, and I tell people that the Liveship trilogy is arguably even better than her assassins trilogy, so I agree with you there. I hope she keeps pumping out premier stuff.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 26th 8:29 AM "Ship of Destiny" is already out in the UK, Geyjoy, but unfortunately it hasn't made its way here yet. And I loved ending of the "Farseers". Verity's death and Fitz's exile really drove home the realisation how grave was the danger they averted and how difficult and costly their victory. I love such endings. In fact, I am very much afraid that ending of "Liveship Traders" will be sub-par in comparison, although I love how the second trilogy is constructed. No faceless evil, for starters and all threads really hang together. BTW, there is an interview with Hobb at www.voyager-book.com where she says that she has begun writing the second "Farseer" series and that she isn't yet sure, but she might explore the Outislands in it.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 26th 8:41 AM Labor; Read Dick? Er...I made a joke. (yeah, yeah, I know, it was horribly lame...)
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 26th 8:43 AM Whooo....waitaminute. Hobb is writing a second Farseer series? Does this take place long after the first? (I always had the feeling that there were a lot of loose ends left up in the air...)
Greyjoy User ID: 0860834	Mar 26th 8:47 AM Are you serious labor!!!!???? Hobb is constructing a second Farseer series? How many books? Is Fitz back in it? What can you tell me? I'll definately check out that interview! I agree, also with you about the ending of the assassins trilogy. Even though it pained me to read, it showed that Hobb wasn't willing to sell out and give us some contrived Bull S***. And yes, the Liveship traders story seems more compact in its construction. I also hope we don't get a stereotypical ending where everyone is happy for all time.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 26th 8:54 AM Sorry, folks, I have no insider info beyond what is said in the interview. OTOH, there is a good Hobb homepage at: home-1.worldonline.nl/~wjtimmer/Robinhobb.htm
Nenz User ID: 9182423	Mar 26th 9:14 AM I've got some info gleaned from a book signing event. The book will be based around Fitz she was apparently 100 pages into the first book. She has got a contract for an another trilogy. labor, do you have a URL for that interview?