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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / George RR Martin Vs Robert Jordan

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Jun 13th 3:35 PM
I like those confrontation topics:

OK, he who thinks that George Martin is one of the greatest(if not THE greatest) fantasy writers of all times, stand against fans of The Treekiller, the man who can not write anything shorter then the bible.

Poor fans of both writers will be caught in the middle of cross fire.

Seriosuly, anyone else fears that at the end of like book 43, Jordan decides that he took a wrong turn in book 13, and so will have 'Bale Fire' or whatever it's called earasing millions of words, characters, and plot happenings?

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Jun 13th 3:50 PM
Omer, by then, or perhaps by now, nobody will really care. Unfortunately, I think Jordan has already lost a good part of his readership because his story has become too convoluted. And I think it a shame, because IMHO this started out as a true fantasy classic. I loved books 1-4, but then the rollercoaster started going down the incline.

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Jun 13th 4:56 PM
I actually thought book 6 was the best. It was too the point, with lots of happenings and strong character work. But the 7th was so lousy I don't care any more. I'll borrow the books from friends, out of sheer momentum, but I have no intension of ever buying them again

Keri Stevenson Jun 14th 7:41 AM
Even though I started reading Jordan's books several years ago, I never bought one in hardcover. I do own the paperback versions, but that was because I found them in used bookstores. (On a side-note, I have yet to see a copy of _A Game of Thrones_ or _A Clash of Kings_ in any used bookstore :). I bought _A Clash of Kings_ in hardcover straight away, and would have bought the hardback version of _A Game of Thrones_ had I started reading the series in time.

I think Martin's writing has these qualities over Jordan's:

Conciseness, ease of reading, ability to move the story along, ability to make you care what happens to even the most minor of the good characters, realism, sympathy-creating even for most of the evil characters, no great reliance on fantasy cliches (Jon and the dragons and visions notwithstanding; at least there is no great brooding Dark One in the north) while at the same time not completely turning its back on a more medieval setting than Jordan has created, inclusion of more realistic religion and language, inclusion of values that don't change with every book...

What does Jordan's writing over Martin's? That it's longer, maybe, and so if you can force yourself to care about the characters that long, you can go on reading them a bit longer. Nothing else.

Actually, I was disenchanted with the series by _The Dragon Reborn_, which did not have Rand in it and barely advanced the story. I liked _The Shadow Rising_, though, so I kept reading it. But _The Path of Daggers_ was absolutely awful- did not advance the story at all- and it took its place as Worst Fantasy Book I Have Ever Read, replacing Maggie Furey's _The Harp of Winds_.

Jeff
User ID: 8506593 Jun 14th 9:42 AM
I used to think Jordan was a very good writer who just made some wrong turns and headed downhill. After the library finally came through with a copy(I refused to buy it after A Crown of Swords) I have changed my opinion.

The guy never was very good to begin with. I think he had some very good _ideas_ for writing a fantasy series, and the strength of those ideas carried him through the first few books. Its the same very good ideas that have created his legions of fans. But in terms of his actual writing, I think its quite poor. Character development in particular. Maybe those who are still devoted followers keep seeing the series he _could_ have written rather than the one he actually has written.

My vote for worst fantasy novel I've ever read is the Iron Tower trilogy by McKiernan. It is the most blatant Tolkien ripoff imaginable, and poorly done at that.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Jun 14th 10:03 AM
The funny thing about McKiernan is that he dearly wanted permission to write in Tolkien's world, but the Estate said no. So he rather purposefully set up a similar setting so he could do it anyhow.

Never read them, but some folk enjoy them I'm told.

Jeff
User ID: 8506593 Jun 14th 12:35 PM
Actually, it wouldn't have been so bad if he would have written another story in Tolkien's world or even his own story in a world that mirrored Tolkien. But the scumbag basically took the entire plot of LOTR along with the realm of Middle Earth. I'm one guy who generally will finish any "series" I start. Mostly out of a curiousity over how it will end. That's how I've managed to stagger along with Robert Jordan. I can honestly say that McKiernan's trilogy is the _only_ series I started but never finished.

I'm told that McKiernan's other works are much better. Maybe, one day, if I get very drunk . . .

Ser Cuttric
User ID: 0011434 Jun 15th 1:58 AM
Omer ... I love the name Treekiller. Never before has one man with one story brouught low so many trees .. and expectations.

With Jordan I know that I will continue to read the series, and sadly, I will continue to buy the books. I cannot abide blank spaces in my bookshelf. Although since Jordan it might be an idea if I got another!
Why continue? I am jsut very curious. The best thing that I think he came up with was his representation of magic. The OP really works for me.

GRRM however, is heads and shoulders above Jordan. Even if Jordan were to pile up all of his hardcovers and then stand on them he probably would reach GRRM's shoulders.

Most of all though, I wish I had only discovered either of them at some time after the series were finished. Nothing is worse than the delays between books.

Worst fanasy title goes to Black Trillium. Hated it!

Min
User ID: 9433023 Jun 15th 4:33 AM
I still like some of Jordan's ideas, and some of his characters. It's sad to know that I won't like the future books anymore. I'm not decided if I'm going to read them at all...

I do not wholeheartedly agree with you Jeff: I still think that the first books were not only well thought, but also well-written. Not as good as Martin, but fine fantasy still.

I'd like to know what happened. Did Jordan loose the thread? That is mainly my impression. He seemed to loose the joy in his own writing, and I think that's sad. It started as a good fantasy novel.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Jun 15th 1:31 PM
Maybe he just got too comfortable. The series was very popular, the money was rolling in, so he just wrote and wrote and wrote and then wrote some more, probably without a whole lot of thought anymore. Perhas he felt that his fans had become so engrossed in the series they would buy even if the quality and the storyline fell apart. Now there is still no end in sight and the serious fantasy fans have become disenchanted.

Keri Stevenson Jun 16th 9:13 AM
I think part of the problem with Jordan's series- in fact, maybe the whole problem- is the way he potrays women. Intense political correctness or misogyny (sp.?), I don't know, but it really makes me tired. There are huge sections of the book that I have to read very carefully so I will know who is speaking. The fact that so many of his characters' names begin with the same letter doesn't help, either.

Oh, and if you can stand to not finish a series, *do* read _Aurian_, the first of Maggie Furey's series. That's actually pretty good. But _Harp of Winds_ just descended into childishness. I was reading it thinking, "I could write better than this!" which is pretty bad :).

Tom
User ID: 8952923 Jun 16th 11:48 PM
I have always been one of the biggest promoters of Jordan. Before GRRM, he was in my top 5, if not top 2 favorite authors. What has happened with the series since book four has been a shame though. Jordan has created too many characters with too many subplots. It (the series) has become unwieldy. I will still buy the hardbacks dutifully. I must have these mysteries solved, even if I am to old and senial to fully understand to understand.

GRRM brings us intense realism and a cut-to-the-chace mentality that really appeals to people. He does not put something in his books that is just fluff. Martin is also willing to create a character without a hidden secret to begin with and let him grow in present importance. Bronn is a great example of this. (Ha! Ha! Just being a little mischevious.)

Kay-Arne Hansen
User ID: 8771373 Jun 17th 3:11 AM
OK, I just came up with a really lame RJ-joke:

Do you know why all the avid Robert Jordan fans are so YOUNG???

That's because they are the only ones with a chance TO LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO SEE THE END OF IT!!!

***anticipating roaring laughter***

Jeff
User ID: 0909594 Jun 17th 8:58 AM
***mildly chuckling out of courtesy***

Keri, I completely agree with you about RJ's portrayal of women. As I noted before, I began by thinking he's a rapid feminist and now think he's a misogynist. Whatever he is in that respect, he's got a problem.

Keri Stevenson Jun 17th 9:10 AM
Jeff: It wouldn't be so bad if some critics and almost everyone else who enjoys the series didn't praise RJ for _exactly that reason_. One of the quotes from a review that appeared on (I think) the first two books said something about women playing a larger role in the series than Tolkien. "Larger" I can't disagree with. "Better?"

Give me Galadriel as the stereotypical woman in fantasy any day of the week, rather than any one, or any combination, of RJ's female characters :).

Seriously, I don't agree with promotion of stereotypes in any way. But I especially hate that aspect of RJ's stories that makes all his countries and societies- even the ones that have kings- seem like undeclared matriarchies. It is annoying, stereotypical (if the social structure is supposed to be dominated by men, then the women are only on top because they are so bitchy and domineering the men are afraid of them), and unrealistic, at least if he is working from Earthly history.

Whew. Probably repeating what I already said, but I just had to get it out of my system :).

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Jun 17th 9:15 AM
Keri, when larger isn't better, then larger is lousier. I agree with everything you just wrote. I'm really down on Jordan right now.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Jun 17th 11:13 AM
I'm still having a hard time swallowing RJ's statement that every WoT-woman is partly based on his own wife...

Jeff
User ID: 8506593 Jun 17th 12:23 PM
If true, its almost enough to make me feel sorry for the guy.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Jun 17th 12:37 PM
Considering all the Earth-references in the WoT-series, perhaps the last appendix will explain the uniformity of Randland women thus;

- Barely preserved documents from the First Age suggest that great magic was done in order to make
the women more pleasing to their men. A novel form of magic, popularly called 'cloning' was to be conducted, using one particular female specimen, thought to be especially pleasing to men (and subsequently deporting all other women to Antarctica). This clone would then be mass-produced.

In a series of mishaps, the woman in question was mixed up with a certain Mrs. James Oliver Rigney, jr.
The document's author stops by taking no responsibility for the future results of the mishap...

---

In order to not come out as a total asshole towards RJ's wife, I'll say that all I've ever heard of her is positive things, and that she really is a sweet woman. (which makes RJ's statements all the more confounding)

Elmar Frey
User ID: 8437443 Jun 17th 4:03 PM
I've read a very little of Jordan's work; say, the first ten pages of his first book. However, I do have to put out that I do indeed love his writing style, and from the point where I left off, the series seemed very interesting to me. I never did like Rand, though; peasant-boy-turns-out-to-be-the universe's-savior has never, ever done it for me. And anyway, when one guy gets like a zillion pages centered around him, I just plain get sick of 'im.

My basic understanding from ex-fans and even current fans, however, is that Jordan is tired of this series and that it's basically a lot of crap now. Such tragedy! But it has helped me, in a way; in the chance that I may actually begin writing a series, I will make sure it doesn't go beyond seven books of a thousand pages each. I love long epics, but the last thing I'd want to happen with my work is for me to get sick of writing it; and the same for my readers to get sick of reading it.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Omer User ID: 0485244	Jun 13th 3:35 PM I like those confrontation topics: OK, he who thinks that George Martin is one of the greatest(if not THE greatest) fantasy writers of all times, stand against fans of The Treekiller, the man who can not write anything shorter then the bible. Poor fans of both writers will be caught in the middle of cross fire. Seriosuly, anyone else fears that at the end of like book 43, Jordan decides that he took a wrong turn in book 13, and so will have 'Bale Fire' or whatever it's called earasing millions of words, characters, and plot happenings?
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Jun 13th 3:50 PM Omer, by then, or perhaps by now, nobody will really care. Unfortunately, I think Jordan has already lost a good part of his readership because his story has become too convoluted. And I think it a shame, because IMHO this started out as a true fantasy classic. I loved books 1-4, but then the rollercoaster started going down the incline.
Omer User ID: 0485244	Jun 13th 4:56 PM I actually thought book 6 was the best. It was too the point, with lots of happenings and strong character work. But the 7th was so lousy I don't care any more. I'll borrow the books from friends, out of sheer momentum, but I have no intension of ever buying them again
Keri Stevenson	Jun 14th 7:41 AM Even though I started reading Jordan's books several years ago, I never bought one in hardcover. I do own the paperback versions, but that was because I found them in used bookstores. (On a side-note, I have yet to see a copy of _A Game of Thrones_ or _A Clash of Kings_ in any used bookstore :). I bought _A Clash of Kings_ in hardcover straight away, and would have bought the hardback version of _A Game of Thrones_ had I started reading the series in time. I think Martin's writing has these qualities over Jordan's: Conciseness, ease of reading, ability to move the story along, ability to make you care what happens to even the most minor of the good characters, realism, sympathy-creating even for most of the evil characters, no great reliance on fantasy cliches (Jon and the dragons and visions notwithstanding; at least there is no great brooding Dark One in the north) while at the same time not completely turning its back on a more medieval setting than Jordan has created, inclusion of more realistic religion and language, inclusion of values that don't change with every book... What does Jordan's writing over Martin's? That it's longer, maybe, and so if you can force yourself to care about the characters that long, you can go on reading them a bit longer. Nothing else. Actually, I was disenchanted with the series by _The Dragon Reborn_, which did not have Rand in it and barely advanced the story. I liked _The Shadow Rising_, though, so I kept reading it. But _The Path of Daggers_ was absolutely awful- did not advance the story at all- and it took its place as Worst Fantasy Book I Have Ever Read, replacing Maggie Furey's _The Harp of Winds_.
Jeff User ID: 8506593	Jun 14th 9:42 AM I used to think Jordan was a very good writer who just made some wrong turns and headed downhill. After the library finally came through with a copy(I refused to buy it after A Crown of Swords) I have changed my opinion. The guy never was very good to begin with. I think he had some very good _ideas_ for writing a fantasy series, and the strength of those ideas carried him through the first few books. Its the same very good ideas that have created his legions of fans. But in terms of his actual writing, I think its quite poor. Character development in particular. Maybe those who are still devoted followers keep seeing the series he _could_ have written rather than the one he actually has written. My vote for worst fantasy novel I've ever read is the Iron Tower trilogy by McKiernan. It is the most blatant Tolkien ripoff imaginable, and poorly done at that.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Jun 14th 10:03 AM The funny thing about McKiernan is that he dearly wanted permission to write in Tolkien's world, but the Estate said no. So he rather purposefully set up a similar setting so he could do it anyhow. Never read them, but some folk enjoy them I'm told.
Jeff User ID: 8506593	Jun 14th 12:35 PM Actually, it wouldn't have been so bad if he would have written another story in Tolkien's world or even his own story in a world that mirrored Tolkien. But the scumbag basically took the entire plot of LOTR along with the realm of Middle Earth. I'm one guy who generally will finish any "series" I start. Mostly out of a curiousity over how it will end. That's how I've managed to stagger along with Robert Jordan. I can honestly say that McKiernan's trilogy is the _only_ series I started but never finished. I'm told that McKiernan's other works are much better. Maybe, one day, if I get very drunk . . .
Ser Cuttric User ID: 0011434	Jun 15th 1:58 AM Omer ... I love the name Treekiller. Never before has one man with one story brouught low so many trees .. and expectations. With Jordan I know that I will continue to read the series, and sadly, I will continue to buy the books. I cannot abide blank spaces in my bookshelf. Although since Jordan it might be an idea if I got another! Why continue? I am jsut very curious. The best thing that I think he came up with was his representation of magic. The OP really works for me. GRRM however, is heads and shoulders above Jordan. Even if Jordan were to pile up all of his hardcovers and then stand on them he probably would reach GRRM's shoulders. Most of all though, I wish I had only discovered either of them at some time after the series were finished. Nothing is worse than the delays between books. Worst fanasy title goes to Black Trillium. Hated it!
Min User ID: 9433023	Jun 15th 4:33 AM I still like some of Jordan's ideas, and some of his characters. It's sad to know that I won't like the future books anymore. I'm not decided if I'm going to read them at all... I do not wholeheartedly agree with you Jeff: I still think that the first books were not only well thought, but also well-written. Not as good as Martin, but fine fantasy still. I'd like to know what happened. Did Jordan loose the thread? That is mainly my impression. He seemed to loose the joy in his own writing, and I think that's sad. It started as a good fantasy novel.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Jun 15th 1:31 PM Maybe he just got too comfortable. The series was very popular, the money was rolling in, so he just wrote and wrote and wrote and then wrote some more, probably without a whole lot of thought anymore. Perhas he felt that his fans had become so engrossed in the series they would buy even if the quality and the storyline fell apart. Now there is still no end in sight and the serious fantasy fans have become disenchanted.
Keri Stevenson	Jun 16th 9:13 AM I think part of the problem with Jordan's series- in fact, maybe the whole problem- is the way he potrays women. Intense political correctness or misogyny (sp.?), I don't know, but it really makes me tired. There are huge sections of the book that I have to read very carefully so I will know who is speaking. The fact that so many of his characters' names begin with the same letter doesn't help, either. Oh, and if you can stand to not finish a series, do read _Aurian_, the first of Maggie Furey's series. That's actually pretty good. But _Harp of Winds_ just descended into childishness. I was reading it thinking, "I could write better than this!" which is pretty bad :).
Tom User ID: 8952923	Jun 16th 11:48 PM I have always been one of the biggest promoters of Jordan. Before GRRM, he was in my top 5, if not top 2 favorite authors. What has happened with the series since book four has been a shame though. Jordan has created too many characters with too many subplots. It (the series) has become unwieldy. I will still buy the hardbacks dutifully. I must have these mysteries solved, even if I am to old and senial to fully understand to understand. GRRM brings us intense realism and a cut-to-the-chace mentality that really appeals to people. He does not put something in his books that is just fluff. Martin is also willing to create a character without a hidden secret to begin with and let him grow in present importance. Bronn is a great example of this. (Ha! Ha! Just being a little mischevious.)
Kay-Arne Hansen User ID: 8771373	Jun 17th 3:11 AM OK, I just came up with a really lame RJ-joke: Do you know why all the avid Robert Jordan fans are so YOUNG??? That's because they are the only ones with a chance TO LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO SEE THE END OF IT!!! *anticipating roaring laughter*
Jeff User ID: 0909594	Jun 17th 8:58 AM *mildly chuckling out of courtesy* Keri, I completely agree with you about RJ's portrayal of women. As I noted before, I began by thinking he's a rapid feminist and now think he's a misogynist. Whatever he is in that respect, he's got a problem.
Keri Stevenson	Jun 17th 9:10 AM Jeff: It wouldn't be so bad if some critics and almost everyone else who enjoys the series didn't praise RJ for _exactly that reason_. One of the quotes from a review that appeared on (I think) the first two books said something about women playing a larger role in the series than Tolkien. "Larger" I can't disagree with. "Better?" Give me Galadriel as the stereotypical woman in fantasy any day of the week, rather than any one, or any combination, of RJ's female characters :). Seriously, I don't agree with promotion of stereotypes in any way. But I especially hate that aspect of RJ's stories that makes all his countries and societies- even the ones that have kings- seem like undeclared matriarchies. It is annoying, stereotypical (if the social structure is supposed to be dominated by men, then the women are only on top because they are so bitchy and domineering the men are afraid of them), and unrealistic, at least if he is working from Earthly history. Whew. Probably repeating what I already said, but I just had to get it out of my system :).
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Jun 17th 9:15 AM Keri, when larger isn't better, then larger is lousier. I agree with everything you just wrote. I'm really down on Jordan right now.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Jun 17th 11:13 AM I'm still having a hard time swallowing RJ's statement that every WoT-woman is partly based on his own wife...
Jeff User ID: 8506593	Jun 17th 12:23 PM If true, its almost enough to make me feel sorry for the guy.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Jun 17th 12:37 PM Considering all the Earth-references in the WoT-series, perhaps the last appendix will explain the uniformity of Randland women thus; - Barely preserved documents from the First Age suggest that great magic was done in order to make the women more pleasing to their men. A novel form of magic, popularly called 'cloning' was to be conducted, using one particular female specimen, thought to be especially pleasing to men (and subsequently deporting all other women to Antarctica). This clone would then be mass-produced. In a series of mishaps, the woman in question was mixed up with a certain Mrs. James Oliver Rigney, jr. The document's author stops by taking no responsibility for the future results of the mishap... --- In order to not come out as a total asshole towards RJ's wife, I'll say that all I've ever heard of her is positive things, and that she really is a sweet woman. (which makes RJ's statements all the more confounding)
Elmar Frey User ID: 8437443	Jun 17th 4:03 PM I've read a very little of Jordan's work; say, the first ten pages of his first book. However, I do have to put out that I do indeed love his writing style, and from the point where I left off, the series seemed very interesting to me. I never did like Rand, though; peasant-boy-turns-out-to-be-the universe's-savior has never, ever done it for me. And anyway, when one guy gets like a zillion pages centered around him, I just plain get sick of 'im. My basic understanding from ex-fans and even current fans, however, is that Jordan is tired of this series and that it's basically a lot of crap now. Such tragedy! But it has helped me, in a way; in the chance that I may actually begin writing a series, I will make sure it doesn't go beyond seven books of a thousand pages each. I love long epics, but the last thing I'd want to happen with my work is for me to get sick of writing it; and the same for my readers to get sick of reading it.