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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Jon's Revelation

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Justin
User ID: 8569443 Jul 2nd 12:54 PM
I've been arguing against Jon as Lyanna's son for quite some time, but I'm getting convinced ... however, I'm wondering how anyone will know, even if it's true. The only ones who would have known of Jon's Targaryen birth - Eddard, Lyanna, and Rhaegar - are dead. I doubt even Varys knows this one. SO how will the rest of the Seven Kingdoms find out?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Jul 2nd 1:23 PM
Howland Reed, Justin. :)

There's also a possibility that Edric Dayne knows something of the events at Starfall on the day Ned came there with Arthur Dayne's sword and that Barristan Selmy was aware of more of the Rhaegar-Lyanna deal than we might suspect.

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Jul 3rd 11:37 AM
Howland Reed may be key to a lot of mysteries in the story. He is the lone survivor from the incident at the Tower of Joy, and the Crannogmen in general seem a strange and mysterious lot (though in a good and interesting way). Of course, he was also a very good friend of Ned's.

Justin
User ID: 1453344 Jul 3rd 11:51 AM
Who is Edric Dayne, Ran? I've never heard that name. Ashara Dayne and Arthur Dayne are dead; who is Edric?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Jul 3rd 12:16 PM
Edric Dayne is Lord of Starfall and is listed in the Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings appendices for Dorne.

One presumes he is a relative -- at worst a cousin, at best (and usefully) a younger brother to Arthur and Ashara who was in Starfall when Ned came a-knocking.

Justin
User ID: 1453344 Jul 3rd 7:46 PM
If so, then Edric Dayne is a very likely POV character who I hadn't considered. He would know what happened at the Tower of Joy, and present a link to Dorne.

Swithin
User ID: 0443584 Sep 28th 1:10 AM
Well, if Jon has Targaryen blood in him he should feel some connection to Dany's dragons. Or at least, some dragon... Who knows what's up north? Also, the self-sacrifice fire miracle would be a clue...

Maeglin
User ID: 9259363 Oct 2nd 5:22 AM
Has anyone evr thought Maester Luwin might have been told about it by Ned? And what was that thing Luwin wanted Osha to do before he died... ................

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 2nd 6:07 AM
Mrm ... no, I don't think so. The way Osha responded, she certainly got the impression that he wanted her to put him out of his misery, and I think that's what he clearly wanted.

Ned was so against telling anyone the truth that he drove a wedge between himself and his own wife (at least insofar Jon was concernend.) I don't see why he should lighten up and pass it on to Luwin.

Also, even if he did know, I don't think he'd tell Osha. He barely trusted the woman in the past. Sure, she might get Rickon to safety (because, of course, that means getting herself to safety too,) but if she had that information ... who knows what she'd do.

Maeglin
User ID: 9259363 Oct 15th 3:21 AM
I guess you are right I didn't think of that

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Nov 6th 11:24 PM
Lyanna had to have had a midwife.

Anyway, Lyanna was surrounded by three Kingsguard when she died. They were with her instead of fighting on the trident. Gee, I wonder whose son she was carrying. Also, you don't surround someone with so many people and have no one know. A lot of people are coming to believe that she was the second wife of Rheagar, though the marriage had not yet been made public so as not to exascerbate the war.

Martin has said that Rheagar treated Elia badly from the point of view of her kin. He has also said Jon was born 8 months befoe Dany. Hmmm..the exact time of the birth of Lyanna's child, to the month. I do not even think Ned had been away from Catelyn for 9 months when Lyanna died, but I could be wrong. If I am right, Ned could not have fathered Jon since we know he did not conceive bastards whilst he was with Catelyn and has always claimed Jon was conceived while he was away at war.

Steve
User ID: 9084913 Nov 7th 11:21 AM
Possible persons of may have information f Jon's parentage include:

1. Howland Reed (he was there);
2. Edric Dayne (he may have info thru kin);
3. Benjen Stark (if Ned were to confide in anyone it be his youngest brother-and I get the impression that Ned did not necessarily mean for Jon to take the black. Benjen may have been told to fill him in before the oaths but went missing before he could);
4. Varys (this spider knows everything. I doubt he'd miss a child between Rheagar and Lyanna. Which is a great ploy on his part, let Dany take all the risk while keeping the true heir safe and obscure);
5. any number of servants who *might* have survived.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Nov 8th 8:38 AM
I'll bet a dozen donuts that Jon's true parentage is revealed by Howland Reed to Catelyn Stark. We'll learn that near the end of ASOS after Robb's army has been defeated.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Nov 8th 9:51 AM
Ned's ability to keep Jon's parentage a secret is one of the things I most admire about him. Many people are simply unable to keep a secret. They rationalize "well, I promised to keep this a secret but I can tell you as long as you promise not to tell anyone else." Ned knew that keeping a secret means telling no-one; neither friend nor spouse nor family. A man you could truly trust.

labor
User ID: 0631424 Nov 8th 10:09 AM

We think exactly along the same wave-length on this, Jeff. In fact IMHO there would be something along the lines of : "With him we could yet have tried something. He is the only legitimate pretender to the Iron Throne left (in Westeros) and everyone is so sick of Lannisters that they might welcome a Targaryen. What a pity that he took the black..."

I also somehow like the idea of this conversation taking place shorty before Robb's defeat (and IMHO demise). It is one of Robb's handicaps that he has not even as slightly legitimate claim to the Iron Throne as Robert's was...

Steve
User ID: 9084913 Nov 8th 1:37 PM
labor, perhaps I'm misunderstanding but I don't think Robb has laid claim to the Iron Throne. He doesn't want it. He wants the North and its allies, the Tully's and Freys. the rest of Westeros he'd prefer to ignore.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Nov 8th 1:54 PM

And that's IMHO his mistake, Steve. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or die. There is no middle ground". Or something to that effect. Also IMHO permanently splitting the realm would be a seriously bad thing for anyone.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Nov 8th 3:29 PM
Oh-oh, the ole "split the realm" debate again. I guess I disagree, at least in part, labor. Robb's mistake is in splitting from the South but trying to retain the Riverlands. _That's_ impossible. On the other hand, having only the "traditional" North split could work, though the political situation between Tullys and Starks probably made that impossible.

It think a split limited to the North could have worked because the North is 1) very defensible and 2) poor. Wouldn't really make a lot of sense to go through the effort to retake it. But the Crown must retake the Riverlands, so Robb's "Kingdom of the North" is doomed given the current balance of forces.

Steve
User ID: 9084913 Nov 8th 4:44 PM
labor, I actually agree with both you and Jeff. Robb should have refused to play the "game of thrones" on Lannister terms and settled for the true north, turning the Neck and Moat Cailin into a fortified zone ready to chew up and spit the Lannisters out. Better yet, he should have seized the Twins (by treachery, if necessay) and had two tiers of purportedly impregnable fortresses to cause the Lannisters grief.

As to politics, he could always have met his compliance with family obligations by sending material and modest amounts of men to the Tully's. He could have let the rest of the realm burn itself out and made sure of his relations with the Tully's (no prob there), Arryn's (Cat knew her sister was nuts but apparently didn't care to tell anyone), and other kingdoms. He could have made a better marriage alliance with the Highgardens or Dornishmen.

But he didn't and now his boat is sunk, though slowly like the Titanic.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Nov 8th 4:47 PM
Steve, I don't think that the Tully solution would have worked. He had to go to Riverrun to lift the siege. If he pulls back and fortifies the Neck, then the Lannisters or whomever simply would resume the attack on the Riverlands. The sending of some men and supplies wouldn't be enough to offset the huge advantage the Lannister/Tyrell allinace would have against the Tullys. He's either got to cut the Tullys loose on their own or stand by them. Half-measures just won't work.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Justin User ID: 8569443	Jul 2nd 12:54 PM I've been arguing against Jon as Lyanna's son for quite some time, but I'm getting convinced ... however, I'm wondering how anyone will know, even if it's true. The only ones who would have known of Jon's Targaryen birth - Eddard, Lyanna, and Rhaegar - are dead. I doubt even Varys knows this one. SO how will the rest of the Seven Kingdoms find out?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Jul 2nd 1:23 PM Howland Reed, Justin. :) There's also a possibility that Edric Dayne knows something of the events at Starfall on the day Ned came there with Arthur Dayne's sword and that Barristan Selmy was aware of more of the Rhaegar-Lyanna deal than we might suspect.
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Jul 3rd 11:37 AM Howland Reed may be key to a lot of mysteries in the story. He is the lone survivor from the incident at the Tower of Joy, and the Crannogmen in general seem a strange and mysterious lot (though in a good and interesting way). Of course, he was also a very good friend of Ned's.
Justin User ID: 1453344	Jul 3rd 11:51 AM Who is Edric Dayne, Ran? I've never heard that name. Ashara Dayne and Arthur Dayne are dead; who is Edric?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Jul 3rd 12:16 PM Edric Dayne is Lord of Starfall and is listed in the Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings appendices for Dorne. One presumes he is a relative -- at worst a cousin, at best (and usefully) a younger brother to Arthur and Ashara who was in Starfall when Ned came a-knocking.
Justin User ID: 1453344	Jul 3rd 7:46 PM If so, then Edric Dayne is a very likely POV character who I hadn't considered. He would know what happened at the Tower of Joy, and present a link to Dorne.
Swithin User ID: 0443584	Sep 28th 1:10 AM Well, if Jon has Targaryen blood in him he should feel some connection to Dany's dragons. Or at least, some dragon... Who knows what's up north? Also, the self-sacrifice fire miracle would be a clue...
Maeglin User ID: 9259363	Oct 2nd 5:22 AM Has anyone evr thought Maester Luwin might have been told about it by Ned? And what was that thing Luwin wanted Osha to do before he died... ................
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 2nd 6:07 AM Mrm ... no, I don't think so. The way Osha responded, she certainly got the impression that he wanted her to put him out of his misery, and I think that's what he clearly wanted. Ned was so against telling anyone the truth that he drove a wedge between himself and his own wife (at least insofar Jon was concernend.) I don't see why he should lighten up and pass it on to Luwin. Also, even if he did know, I don't think he'd tell Osha. He barely trusted the woman in the past. Sure, she might get Rickon to safety (because, of course, that means getting herself to safety too,) but if she had that information ... who knows what she'd do.
Maeglin User ID: 9259363	Oct 15th 3:21 AM I guess you are right I didn't think of that
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Nov 6th 11:24 PM Lyanna had to have had a midwife. Anyway, Lyanna was surrounded by three Kingsguard when she died. They were with her instead of fighting on the trident. Gee, I wonder whose son she was carrying. Also, you don't surround someone with so many people and have no one know. A lot of people are coming to believe that she was the second wife of Rheagar, though the marriage had not yet been made public so as not to exascerbate the war. Martin has said that Rheagar treated Elia badly from the point of view of her kin. He has also said Jon was born 8 months befoe Dany. Hmmm..the exact time of the birth of Lyanna's child, to the month. I do not even think Ned had been away from Catelyn for 9 months when Lyanna died, but I could be wrong. If I am right, Ned could not have fathered Jon since we know he did not conceive bastards whilst he was with Catelyn and has always claimed Jon was conceived while he was away at war.
Steve User ID: 9084913	Nov 7th 11:21 AM Possible persons of may have information f Jon's parentage include: 1. Howland Reed (he was there); 2. Edric Dayne (he may have info thru kin); 3. Benjen Stark (if Ned were to confide in anyone it be his youngest brother-and I get the impression that Ned did not necessarily mean for Jon to take the black. Benjen may have been told to fill him in before the oaths but went missing before he could); 4. Varys (this spider knows everything. I doubt he'd miss a child between Rheagar and Lyanna. Which is a great ploy on his part, let Dany take all the risk while keeping the true heir safe and obscure); 5. any number of servants who might have survived.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Nov 8th 8:38 AM I'll bet a dozen donuts that Jon's true parentage is revealed by Howland Reed to Catelyn Stark. We'll learn that near the end of ASOS after Robb's army has been defeated.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Nov 8th 9:51 AM Ned's ability to keep Jon's parentage a secret is one of the things I most admire about him. Many people are simply unable to keep a secret. They rationalize "well, I promised to keep this a secret but I can tell you as long as you promise not to tell anyone else." Ned knew that keeping a secret means telling no-one; neither friend nor spouse nor family. A man you could truly trust.
labor User ID: 0631424	Nov 8th 10:09 AM We think exactly along the same wave-length on this, Jeff. In fact IMHO there would be something along the lines of : "With him we could yet have tried something. He is the only legitimate pretender to the Iron Throne left (in Westeros) and everyone is so sick of Lannisters that they might welcome a Targaryen. What a pity that he took the black..." I also somehow like the idea of this conversation taking place shorty before Robb's defeat (and IMHO demise). It is one of Robb's handicaps that he has not even as slightly legitimate claim to the Iron Throne as Robert's was...
Steve User ID: 9084913	Nov 8th 1:37 PM labor, perhaps I'm misunderstanding but I don't think Robb has laid claim to the Iron Throne. He doesn't want it. He wants the North and its allies, the Tully's and Freys. the rest of Westeros he'd prefer to ignore.
labor User ID: 8479113	Nov 8th 1:54 PM And that's IMHO his mistake, Steve. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or die. There is no middle ground". Or something to that effect. Also IMHO permanently splitting the realm would be a seriously bad thing for anyone.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Nov 8th 3:29 PM Oh-oh, the ole "split the realm" debate again. I guess I disagree, at least in part, labor. Robb's mistake is in splitting from the South but trying to retain the Riverlands. _That's_ impossible. On the other hand, having only the "traditional" North split could work, though the political situation between Tullys and Starks probably made that impossible. It think a split limited to the North could have worked because the North is 1) very defensible and 2) poor. Wouldn't really make a lot of sense to go through the effort to retake it. But the Crown must retake the Riverlands, so Robb's "Kingdom of the North" is doomed given the current balance of forces.
Steve User ID: 9084913	Nov 8th 4:44 PM labor, I actually agree with both you and Jeff. Robb should have refused to play the "game of thrones" on Lannister terms and settled for the true north, turning the Neck and Moat Cailin into a fortified zone ready to chew up and spit the Lannisters out. Better yet, he should have seized the Twins (by treachery, if necessay) and had two tiers of purportedly impregnable fortresses to cause the Lannisters grief. As to politics, he could always have met his compliance with family obligations by sending material and modest amounts of men to the Tully's. He could have let the rest of the realm burn itself out and made sure of his relations with the Tully's (no prob there), Arryn's (Cat knew her sister was nuts but apparently didn't care to tell anyone), and other kingdoms. He could have made a better marriage alliance with the Highgardens or Dornishmen. But he didn't and now his boat is sunk, though slowly like the Titanic.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Nov 8th 4:47 PM Steve, I don't think that the Tully solution would have worked. He had to go to Riverrun to lift the siege. If he pulls back and fortifies the Neck, then the Lannisters or whomever simply would resume the attack on the Riverlands. The sending of some men and supplies wouldn't be enough to offset the huge advantage the Lannister/Tyrell allinace would have against the Tullys. He's either got to cut the Tullys loose on their own or stand by them. Half-measures just won't work.