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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / The Night's Watch

Rania
User ID: 0324974 Jul 5th 9:15 PM
I have been thinking about this for a while now,
and I don't think that the Night's Watch is going to survive as an "instition" for very much longer.
First, only the North appears to believe in the need for the Night's Watch, the South appears to regard as it a joke and this has weakened the Night's watch tremendously. Also, even if by some miracle (or possibly the intervention of Jon or Benjen Stark) the men of the Night's Watch do survive the coming attack by the Wildling's and the Others, it would have failed its primary mission.
The only reason I mention this is that I have often not been able to figure out how Jon is going to get out of his Night's Watch vows and marry Dany and reign with her over the Seven Kingdoms and here is the answer and a logical one it is.

Markus
User ID: 2936914 Jul 6th 8:10 AM
Even if the Night's Watch prevails as institution -- it isn't impossible that the realm has to be guarded against another Long Night after all, and the south will probably begin to care about the Wall too, once the Others come forward -- Jon could still be released of his vows, since we know that the Great Council offered this to Aemon Targaryen, who declined however, and Martin has confirmed that this is also possible in Jon's case.

Rania
User ID: 0324974 Jul 6th 9:17 AM
Where did you read that the Great Council (of the Night's Watch?) offered to release Aemon from his vows?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Jul 6th 9:26 AM
The Great Council of the Seven Kingdoms, Rania, made up of the nobility. Basically, a sort of parlimentary meeting. It was convened at that particular time (and hasn't been convened since) to decide the succession after Maekar I (Prince Maekar in "The Hedge Knight")

Aemon was considered next in line after his niece and nephew from his two elder brothers (Daeron the Drunken and Aerion Brightflame, respectively) were ruled out. The Great Council has the power to dissolve a maester's oaths and (according to Martin in the Event Horizon Chat) is actually sufficiently strong enough to dissolve the oaths of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch.

The revelant page in CoK is P. 77 of the U.K. hardback, in Jon's first chapter.

Kay-Arne Hansen
User ID: 9209903 Jul 6th 11:07 AM
As for the Night's Watch dissolving...perhaps this has happened in the past as well?

I recall someone debating this on the Dragonstone board (Ran and Bill Hall, IIRC). Bill, I think, argued that it was very unlikely that the Night's Watch would survive throughout all of eight thousand years.

Perhaps it didn't.

It could be that the Watch as an institution has waxed and waned with the passing time - and perhaps it has been 'closed down' for a time, until the need arose anew (probably because of some wildling threat). After all, eight thousand years is a lot of history to cover...these rare lapses might not be recorded anywhere.

(does anyone recall the debate I referred to above, or am I just getting presenile?)

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Jul 6th 1:12 PM
No, I recall it quite well. ;)

Min
User ID: 9433023 Jul 6th 2:36 PM
Hi Rania, nice to see you here again, too! :-)
Well, I put that onto the mailinglist, but as you brought up the topic here, I will share it with my beloved boarders, too. :-)

The south ignores the dangers of the north. They laughed at the Other's hand Yoren showed them, they are engulfed by their own intruiges and games of thrones. They are not interested in the north. The Warden of the North kept Westeros safe for such a long time that they don't even recall that there are dangers. Direwolfs, Others, Giants and Children of the forest have become tales told by Old Nans...

If they are to wake up, something has to happen. Something horrible.
Something that they all have to recognize. The Wall will be destroyed. The Night's Watch will fail and vanish. They will understand then. And only then.

Bill Hall
User ID: 0777594 Jul 6th 6:01 PM
I recall that debate as well. Still, KAH, you may be suffering from that disease whose name you can't seem to remember.

GRRM has mentioned a handful of instances of wildling invasion, but nothing I recall that suggests the Night's Watch might have collapsed in millinia past - just the abandonment of most of the outposts over the last 300 years. That's one point that troubled me and sparked the debate with Ran.

The Night's Watch is a sociological anomaly. I still harbor hopes that GRRM will show us details of the story of the Wall and the Watch (perhaps through Samwell's exploration of the archives at Castle Black) that explain this persistent dedication, unparallelled in human history. Not to mention significant levels of continuing support from the warring kings over thousands of years.

GRRM has said (in an early e-mail) that he has built a world that is complete and consistent in a fantasy sense (as opposed to science fiction), the essentials of which he will reveal in the course of this series. So we can look forward to knowing what the Others are, what their technology and magic consists of, and how the Wall supposedly contains them.

On the other hand, there may be no explanation (fantasy or otherwise) offered for, e.g., the years-long seasons or the thousands of years of cultural and technological stagnation. I hope GRRM doesn't do that to us: they are unique and interesting features that deserve a rationalization woven consistently into the story's background. More, many of the anomalous features ARE explainable in various ways, as Ran and Arion showed us on the old Dragonstone board.

Oh, well. It's one hell of a read, even if some gaps and inconsistencies remain.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Jul 6th 6:31 PM

What really puzzles me, is that although the Night's Watch seems well enough respected in the North, there are so few northeners who join of their own free will. Do we even see any born northeners there except Ben, Jon and Mormont?

Also, it is really very strange that till 300 years ago everyone in the warring kingdoms of the South understood the importance of the Night's Watch, but as soon as they were united, it was steadily forgotten. I guess that it has to do with the general decline of magic. Likely earlier there were magical means to prove the necessity of the Watch, that are now gone.

Rachel Harris
User ID: 9510053 Jul 6th 7:33 PM
Actually the Aemon story in the CoK goes the other way. He was a maester, which involved almost irrevocable vows. But these vows could have been dissolved by a Great Council. To forstall the possibility of being considered again for his brother's throne he goes to the Night's Watch, where the vows are far stricter. The Night'S Watch has been used to avoid executing too many important people to have the vows dissolvable for anything. The Great Council might have that theoretical power, but they destroy the use of the Night's Watch if they use it.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Jul 6th 7:42 PM
Good point, Rachel. I should have made my note of the Great Council's powers clearer. You're describing what I was describing, I just wanted to note the interesting bit that (theoretically speaking) the Great Council can dissolve the oaths of a member of Night's Watch.

I'm unsure if joining the Night's Watch was because the vows are much stricter. Mormont suggests that it's because it puts him safely far away from the court, and gives him a reason not to obey a summons -- I doubt one would expect a Great Council to dissolve his oaths against his will. His concern was that his presence might bring others to try to convince him to take the throne, or try to use him as a figurehead against his younger sibling.

Markus
User ID: 8820133 Jun 25th 10:13 AM
Ran,

you mentioned that you intended to ask Martin who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at the time of Robert's Rebellion. Did he say anything about this already?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 25th 10:26 AM
Oh, yes. Jorah Mormont was not the Lord Commander at the time of the rebellion. His comment concerning Thorne being one of the few sworn knights to join the Watch since he was LC was a slip of memory, which the other people present were polite enough to ignore.

Or so says GRRM. It's not up on the SSM collection, if I remember rightly, because my question was rather ... long and involved, and wouldn't be suitable for the short answer he gave. :)

Rania User ID: 0324974	Jul 5th 9:15 PM I have been thinking about this for a while now, and I don't think that the Night's Watch is going to survive as an "instition" for very much longer. First, only the North appears to believe in the need for the Night's Watch, the South appears to regard as it a joke and this has weakened the Night's watch tremendously. Also, even if by some miracle (or possibly the intervention of Jon or Benjen Stark) the men of the Night's Watch do survive the coming attack by the Wildling's and the Others, it would have failed its primary mission. The only reason I mention this is that I have often not been able to figure out how Jon is going to get out of his Night's Watch vows and marry Dany and reign with her over the Seven Kingdoms and here is the answer and a logical one it is.
Markus User ID: 2936914	Jul 6th 8:10 AM Even if the Night's Watch prevails as institution -- it isn't impossible that the realm has to be guarded against another Long Night after all, and the south will probably begin to care about the Wall too, once the Others come forward -- Jon could still be released of his vows, since we know that the Great Council offered this to Aemon Targaryen, who declined however, and Martin has confirmed that this is also possible in Jon's case.
Rania User ID: 0324974	Jul 6th 9:17 AM Where did you read that the Great Council (of the Night's Watch?) offered to release Aemon from his vows?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Jul 6th 9:26 AM The Great Council of the Seven Kingdoms, Rania, made up of the nobility. Basically, a sort of parlimentary meeting. It was convened at that particular time (and hasn't been convened since) to decide the succession after Maekar I (Prince Maekar in "The Hedge Knight") Aemon was considered next in line after his niece and nephew from his two elder brothers (Daeron the Drunken and Aerion Brightflame, respectively) were ruled out. The Great Council has the power to dissolve a maester's oaths and (according to Martin in the Event Horizon Chat) is actually sufficiently strong enough to dissolve the oaths of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. The revelant page in CoK is P. 77 of the U.K. hardback, in Jon's first chapter.
Kay-Arne Hansen User ID: 9209903	Jul 6th 11:07 AM As for the Night's Watch dissolving...perhaps this has happened in the past as well? I recall someone debating this on the Dragonstone board (Ran and Bill Hall, IIRC). Bill, I think, argued that it was very unlikely that the Night's Watch would survive throughout all of eight thousand years. Perhaps it didn't. It could be that the Watch as an institution has waxed and waned with the passing time - and perhaps it has been 'closed down' for a time, until the need arose anew (probably because of some wildling threat). After all, eight thousand years is a lot of history to cover...these rare lapses might not be recorded anywhere. (does anyone recall the debate I referred to above, or am I just getting presenile?)
Ran User ID: 0283314	Jul 6th 1:12 PM No, I recall it quite well. ;)
Min User ID: 9433023	Jul 6th 2:36 PM Hi Rania, nice to see you here again, too! :-) Well, I put that onto the mailinglist, but as you brought up the topic here, I will share it with my beloved boarders, too. :-) The south ignores the dangers of the north. They laughed at the Other's hand Yoren showed them, they are engulfed by their own intruiges and games of thrones. They are not interested in the north. The Warden of the North kept Westeros safe for such a long time that they don't even recall that there are dangers. Direwolfs, Others, Giants and Children of the forest have become tales told by Old Nans... If they are to wake up, something has to happen. Something horrible. Something that they all have to recognize. The Wall will be destroyed. The Night's Watch will fail and vanish. They will understand then. And only then.
Bill Hall User ID: 0777594	Jul 6th 6:01 PM I recall that debate as well. Still, KAH, you may be suffering from that disease whose name you can't seem to remember. GRRM has mentioned a handful of instances of wildling invasion, but nothing I recall that suggests the Night's Watch might have collapsed in millinia past - just the abandonment of most of the outposts over the last 300 years. That's one point that troubled me and sparked the debate with Ran. The Night's Watch is a sociological anomaly. I still harbor hopes that GRRM will show us details of the story of the Wall and the Watch (perhaps through Samwell's exploration of the archives at Castle Black) that explain this persistent dedication, unparallelled in human history. Not to mention significant levels of continuing support from the warring kings over thousands of years. GRRM has said (in an early e-mail) that he has built a world that is complete and consistent in a fantasy sense (as opposed to science fiction), the essentials of which he will reveal in the course of this series. So we can look forward to knowing what the Others are, what their technology and magic consists of, and how the Wall supposedly contains them. On the other hand, there may be no explanation (fantasy or otherwise) offered for, e.g., the years-long seasons or the thousands of years of cultural and technological stagnation. I hope GRRM doesn't do that to us: they are unique and interesting features that deserve a rationalization woven consistently into the story's background. More, many of the anomalous features ARE explainable in various ways, as Ran and Arion showed us on the old Dragonstone board. Oh, well. It's one hell of a read, even if some gaps and inconsistencies remain.
labor User ID: 8479113	Jul 6th 6:31 PM What really puzzles me, is that although the Night's Watch seems well enough respected in the North, there are so few northeners who join of their own free will. Do we even see any born northeners there except Ben, Jon and Mormont? Also, it is really very strange that till 300 years ago everyone in the warring kingdoms of the South understood the importance of the Night's Watch, but as soon as they were united, it was steadily forgotten. I guess that it has to do with the general decline of magic. Likely earlier there were magical means to prove the necessity of the Watch, that are now gone.
Rachel Harris User ID: 9510053	Jul 6th 7:33 PM Actually the Aemon story in the CoK goes the other way. He was a maester, which involved almost irrevocable vows. But these vows could have been dissolved by a Great Council. To forstall the possibility of being considered again for his brother's throne he goes to the Night's Watch, where the vows are far stricter. The Night'S Watch has been used to avoid executing too many important people to have the vows dissolvable for anything. The Great Council might have that theoretical power, but they destroy the use of the Night's Watch if they use it.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Jul 6th 7:42 PM Good point, Rachel. I should have made my note of the Great Council's powers clearer. You're describing what I was describing, I just wanted to note the interesting bit that (theoretically speaking) the Great Council can dissolve the oaths of a member of Night's Watch. I'm unsure if joining the Night's Watch was because the vows are much stricter. Mormont suggests that it's because it puts him safely far away from the court, and gives him a reason not to obey a summons -- I doubt one would expect a Great Council to dissolve his oaths against his will. His concern was that his presence might bring others to try to convince him to take the throne, or try to use him as a figurehead against his younger sibling.
Markus User ID: 8820133	Jun 25th 10:13 AM Ran, you mentioned that you intended to ask Martin who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at the time of Robert's Rebellion. Did he say anything about this already?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 25th 10:26 AM Oh, yes. Jorah Mormont was not the Lord Commander at the time of the rebellion. His comment concerning Thorne being one of the few sworn knights to join the Watch since he was LC was a slip of memory, which the other people present were polite enough to ignore. Or so says GRRM. It's not up on the SSM collection, if I remember rightly, because my question was rather ... long and involved, and wouldn't be suitable for the short answer he gave. :)