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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Ice and Fire?

Next 20 Messages

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Mar 24th 9:18 AM
When the Reeds pledge there fealty to House Stark they pledged it by ice and fire. What was meant?

Anyone care to wager a guess?

Cladhaim
User ID: 9544623 Mar 24th 9:22 AM
Probably the old fealty sworn for thousands of years based upon the First Men.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Mar 24th 9:28 AM
Maybe it's something along the lines of "in sickness and in health" or "in good times and in bad".

Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Mar 24th 9:47 AM
Good question. Perhaps, because the seasons are so long, they refer to Summer and Winter.

Fourthman
User ID: 0923684 Mar 24th 10:29 AM
Or perhaps, to carry on Cladhaim's logic, the North has battled the Others and Dragons throughout history.

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Mar 24th 10:30 AM
Maybe not dragons, but the Fire is the instrument of death to the Others and the Others are the Ice.

haaruk Mar 24th 9:23 PM
they swore by earth and water, bronze and iron, ice and fire. All words and symbols were venerations. A littany of strength. These are the timeless extremes that complete their lives. The cycles of end and renewal.

Jeff
User ID: 0909594 Mar 25th 4:53 PM
Maybe a cold beer and some nachos?

haaruk Mar 30th 9:00 PM
When dany confronts the undying ones she says she wants the "gift of truth". The undying ones tell her to "drink from the cup of ice" and " drink from the cup of fire". Drink from the cups of truth. Together, fire and ice equal the truth.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Mar 31st 7:24 AM
Interesting theory, Haaruk. But wouldn't that be the equivalent of black and white equals grey?

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Mar 31st 9:11 AM
Jojen swore for Earth and Water
Meera swore for Bronze and Iron

and they both swore for Ice and Fire.

haaruk Mar 31st 8:30 PM
Ser Gary, what it establishes is balance. The equilibrium of natural forces. Yin and yang, alpha and omega, earth and sky, sun and moon, fire and ice.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Apr 1st 7:25 AM
Thanks, Haaruk. Then it's A Question of Balance, with all due respects to the Moody Blues.

haaruk Apr 3rd 11:54 AM
I believe so Ser Gary and that is why the undying ones tell Dany to "drink from the cup of ice" "drink from the cup of fire". To reestablish Targaryen hegemony she must realize the truth of why the targaryens are such failures.

Luke__ Apr 3rd 10:02 PM

Hegemony?

haaruk Apr 4th 0:33 AM
leadership or predominance

Luke__ Apr 4th 5:28 PM
Okay. Thanks for clarifying that.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Apr 23rd 6:24 AM
I've been mulling over something and I think I'll finally put it into words.

GRRM has mentioned several times that Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series was a big influence and/or motivation for A Song of Ice and Fire. We've seen a couple "tips of the hat" so far to that series. Memory, Sorrow and Thorn were the names of swords in Osten Ard (I hope I'm not spoiling anyone's reading of Mr. Williams w/ that comment), and wouldn't you know there is a sword named Ice in the "Song". There have also been several mentions of flame type swords so far in aSoIaF. There is Thoros of Myr and his sword (which I think is just dipped in wildfire) there is the mention by Melisandre of some flaming sword that R'hllor's champion will wield (Funny that Thoros may be a priest of that same god). And there is "Dawn" which seems to be the polar opposite of Ice, at least in appearance. I've lent my books out so I can't give you quotes (very sorry) but there could be some more interesting symbolic thing there, Ice form the North, Dawn from the South... I'll see what haaruk can do w/ it.

Ice was described as a dark blade, a hand wide and taller than even Robb at the beginning of aGoT.

Dawn was Ser Arthur Dayne's sword and the only description I remember of it was in Ned's dream of the Tower of Joy (I think it was p425 or 426 in the pb ed. of aGoT) It was pale as milkglass.

These swords have already met and perhaps the most interesting tales surrounding both those swords end there. But Ice and Fire has many meanings in this tale and those swords could be part of it.

Think about it. There is still that hint that one of the Starks needs to get Ice back from Ser Ilyn Payne. Who will it be? Jon has a Valyrian blade from Jeor Mormont, maybe he'll give that back to Jorah? And take Ice for his own. Or Robb could get it back in the end.

Eddard returned Dawn to Starfall, maybe Edric Dayne has it now.

I don't think we've heard the last of these two swords, or perhaps there is another....

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Apr 23rd 6:28 AM
It's pretty out there I know, but the next book is called Storm of Swords...

House Chad
User ID: 0860834 Apr 26th 5:13 PM
Does anyone know how many books are planned in the ASOIAF series?

Next 20 Messages

Snake User ID: 0018434	Mar 24th 9:18 AM When the Reeds pledge there fealty to House Stark they pledged it by ice and fire. What was meant? Anyone care to wager a guess?
Cladhaim User ID: 9544623	Mar 24th 9:22 AM Probably the old fealty sworn for thousands of years based upon the First Men.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Mar 24th 9:28 AM Maybe it's something along the lines of "in sickness and in health" or "in good times and in bad".
Benjen User ID: 1195644	Mar 24th 9:47 AM Good question. Perhaps, because the seasons are so long, they refer to Summer and Winter.
Fourthman User ID: 0923684	Mar 24th 10:29 AM Or perhaps, to carry on Cladhaim's logic, the North has battled the Others and Dragons throughout history.
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Mar 24th 10:30 AM Maybe not dragons, but the Fire is the instrument of death to the Others and the Others are the Ice.
haaruk	Mar 24th 9:23 PM they swore by earth and water, bronze and iron, ice and fire. All words and symbols were venerations. A littany of strength. These are the timeless extremes that complete their lives. The cycles of end and renewal.
Jeff User ID: 0909594	Mar 25th 4:53 PM Maybe a cold beer and some nachos?
haaruk	Mar 30th 9:00 PM When dany confronts the undying ones she says she wants the "gift of truth". The undying ones tell her to "drink from the cup of ice" and " drink from the cup of fire". Drink from the cups of truth. Together, fire and ice equal the truth.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Mar 31st 7:24 AM Interesting theory, Haaruk. But wouldn't that be the equivalent of black and white equals grey?
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Mar 31st 9:11 AM Jojen swore for Earth and Water Meera swore for Bronze and Iron and they both swore for Ice and Fire.
haaruk	Mar 31st 8:30 PM Ser Gary, what it establishes is balance. The equilibrium of natural forces. Yin and yang, alpha and omega, earth and sky, sun and moon, fire and ice.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Apr 1st 7:25 AM Thanks, Haaruk. Then it's A Question of Balance, with all due respects to the Moody Blues.
haaruk	Apr 3rd 11:54 AM I believe so Ser Gary and that is why the undying ones tell Dany to "drink from the cup of ice" "drink from the cup of fire". To reestablish Targaryen hegemony she must realize the truth of why the targaryens are such failures.
Luke__	Apr 3rd 10:02 PM Hegemony?
haaruk	Apr 4th 0:33 AM leadership or predominance
Luke__	Apr 4th 5:28 PM Okay. Thanks for clarifying that.
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Apr 23rd 6:24 AM I've been mulling over something and I think I'll finally put it into words. GRRM has mentioned several times that Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series was a big influence and/or motivation for A Song of Ice and Fire. We've seen a couple "tips of the hat" so far to that series. Memory, Sorrow and Thorn were the names of swords in Osten Ard (I hope I'm not spoiling anyone's reading of Mr. Williams w/ that comment), and wouldn't you know there is a sword named Ice in the "Song". There have also been several mentions of flame type swords so far in aSoIaF. There is Thoros of Myr and his sword (which I think is just dipped in wildfire) there is the mention by Melisandre of some flaming sword that R'hllor's champion will wield (Funny that Thoros may be a priest of that same god). And there is "Dawn" which seems to be the polar opposite of Ice, at least in appearance. I've lent my books out so I can't give you quotes (very sorry) but there could be some more interesting symbolic thing there, Ice form the North, Dawn from the South... I'll see what haaruk can do w/ it. Ice was described as a dark blade, a hand wide and taller than even Robb at the beginning of aGoT. Dawn was Ser Arthur Dayne's sword and the only description I remember of it was in Ned's dream of the Tower of Joy (I think it was p425 or 426 in the pb ed. of aGoT) It was pale as milkglass. These swords have already met and perhaps the most interesting tales surrounding both those swords end there. But Ice and Fire has many meanings in this tale and those swords could be part of it. Think about it. There is still that hint that one of the Starks needs to get Ice back from Ser Ilyn Payne. Who will it be? Jon has a Valyrian blade from Jeor Mormont, maybe he'll give that back to Jorah? And take Ice for his own. Or Robb could get it back in the end. Eddard returned Dawn to Starfall, maybe Edric Dayne has it now. I don't think we've heard the last of these two swords, or perhaps there is another....
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Apr 23rd 6:28 AM It's pretty out there I know, but the next book is called Storm of Swords...
House Chad User ID: 0860834	Apr 26th 5:13 PM Does anyone know how many books are planned in the ASOIAF series?