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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Lyanna's Child

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Aemon
User ID: 9301033 Jul 29th 2:32 PM
Who do you think Lyanna's child is? Jon? Or another person? I personally don't think that it is Jon. Maybe Eddard hid away her child? If so where? Please give me your opinions. I'm curious.

Paula
User ID: 1035294 Jul 29th 11:28 PM
I am fairly entrenched in the "Jon" camp. The most convincing argument to me is that Ned was too honorable to cheat on his wife. And there is that "he is of my blood" line. So given that Jon is obviously a Stark, it leaves Lyanna. I guess he could be Brandons somehow, but then why the secrecy?

Min
User ID: 9433023 Jul 30th 12:55 PM
Though I, too, think Jon is Lyanna's son, here is another possibility: He's Benjen's.

Rebecca
User ID: 7538493 Aug 2nd 8:32 AM
I too am in the Jon camp for all the reasons Paula states, plus the fact that Ned constantly feels guilty about having lied for 14 years. 1) This guilt always surfaces when he thinks about Jon. 2) at the time Jon was, uh, 14 years old.

Aemon
User ID: 9301033 Aug 4th 0:57 AM
For some reason, I think Jon is Brandon's son. He was supposed to marrie Catelyn, so that is a good reason for Eddard to keep him a secret.

Rebecca
User ID: 7538493 Aug 4th 6:50 AM
But then what was Ned's promise to Lyanna? It haunted him for 14 years.

Carol
User ID: 9405543 Aug 4th 5:49 PM
The bastard son of Brandon and Ashara Dain might make some sense, but then that means Leanna had a whole other secret, or that her child with Rhaegar is somewhere else -- with Howland Reed?

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Aug 4th 10:51 PM
Someone made a point earlier in another thread regarding the chances of Jon being Brandon's get. If this were so, then Eddard wouldn't be the good guy we all know and love, because if Jon were Brandon's son, then he would rightfully be Lord of Winterfell. Bastard or no, if Eddard were the upright guy we got to know, then he would still bend knee to Jon.

ab

labor Aug 5th 1:33 AM

No, if Jon were Brandon's _bastard_, he wouldn't rightfully be Lord of Winterfell. Bastards are, out of line of succession. Earlier Aemon proposed that Jon is a trueborn son of Brandon by his secret marriage with Ashara Dayne. I pointed out that in this case Eddard would be somewhat of a villain.
However, if Jon is Brandon's bastard, why would Ned claim him as his own and why would he be so extremely secretive about his mother? If Jon's mother wasn't Lyanna, then Ned's total silence about her would be a completely unnecessary cruelty.

Aemon
User ID: 9301033 Aug 6th 11:59 PM
Ok, yes, I did think that Jon would be Brandon's son, but now it seems more likely that he would be Brandon's bastard. That way he wouldn't be in line for succession (though that would be a great plot twist). I think Eddard would have been secretive about it to save Brandon's and Ashara's honor. I remember something about Eddard saying he remembered the promises he made and the price he paid to keep them. It was promises-plural. That means more than one promise. One to Lyanna. One to Brandon (or Ashara).

Oh, and by the way, I still think Lyanna had a son. I just don't believe that it's Jon. I do like the theory that Howland Reed has him. I'm trying to write this all down on my website. If you'd like to check it out it's at www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1043/jontheory.html Sorry, I felt the need to give publicity to my site. Oh, and if your into that movie thing, I'm trying to put up a family tree with pictures, so E-mail me some if you'd like. My E-mail is [email protected]

More discussion please. I love this stuff.

Carol
User ID: 9405543 Aug 8th 11:58 AM
One could explain the "bond" between Ned and Dayne by the similarity of their situations if they both had a sister "dishonored" by an ill-advised love affair and a child without a father. Perhaps one of Ned's promises was to Sir Arthur Dayne, to take his sister's child and raise it as his own to spare her reputation.

Ned's promise to Lyanna, then, would be to hide her child from Robert's people who were wholesale slaughtering Targaryens, and the place to hide him/her out of view of everyone who mattered was with Howland Reed.

Aemon
User ID: 9301033 Aug 8th 7:57 PM
My thoughts exactly. Though, I don't think that Lyanna and Rheagar's child is a bastard (if they had one). I think that Rheagar would have married Lyanna. I mean, who's going to tell him he can't marry however many women he wants.

Rebecca
User ID: 7538493 Aug 9th 7:40 AM
Carol: If Ned had promised Arthur Dayne that he would raise his (Arthur) sister's fatherless child as his (Ned) own, then why would Ned say that Jon is "of my blood and that is all you need know."?

labor Aug 9th 1:11 PM

Carol, Dorne is less patriarchal than the rest of Westeros. Women have equal rights concerning inheritance there, etc. What I mean is, it wasn't Ser Artur's right to dispose of the fate of Ashara's child or exact any promises from Ned on the matter. And if Ned did give such a promise, took the boy and Ashara killed herself because of it... Well it would certainly add a very dark hue to Ned's personality. I wouldn't care for it being true.

Carol
User ID: 9405543 Aug 9th 1:11 PM
Jon would be of his blood, if Brandon were his father.

Aemon
User ID: 9301033 Aug 15th 4:20 PM
Yes, Jon would be of Eddard's blood if he were Brandon's son. I think Ashara's killed herself because her love, Brandon, was dead. But, she got Eddard to take Brandon and her child first.

Mike
User ID: 9836983 Aug 15th 11:25 PM
I disagree with the Brandon/Ashara Dayne theory. Brandon was all set to marry Catelyn and he did not seem unpleased by the prospect. I mean, he fought a duel for her hand. Also, when would Brandon have met Ashara. He was at Winterfell and on his way to Riverrun when he went to KL and was killed. That means that Ashara would have had to get pregnant, at the latest, at the tourney where Rhaegar gave the laurel to Lyanna. I believe that Brandon was already betrothed by then, and there was no mention of Ashara being at the tourney.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Aug 16th 5:32 AM
Heh. At the latest? The earliest, maybe, Mike.

We can rule out that Ashara concieved Jon with Brandon at that tournament, because it would make Jon well over a year older to Dany. We know he's no more than 8-9 months older (i.e., around the scak of King's Landing, a _year_ into the war.)

So, Jon was concieved two or three months into the war. Brandon's two or three months dead. No go.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Aug 16th 10:04 AM
I don't know why it makes me feel archaic, but I am firmly entrenched in the Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son camp. There are just to many hints in that direction in Eddard's POV chapters.

No I don't have definitive proof. Eddard was the only person we've come across so far that knows anything about the events surrounding Lyanna's death. As far as I know the only person left alive to answer that question (about Lyanna'a death and child) is Howland Reed.

Until we see or hear from him, we're swinging at shadows.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Aug 16th 11:20 AM
I too am in the camp placing Jon as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar for all the reasons stated above. The most convincing for me is that this parentage is the one that would demand the utmost secrecy and best explains Ned's insistence on keeping that parentage so secret. If its Brandon and Ashara, so what? I suppose its a minor embarassment for Catelyn, but other than that I can see no real reason to keep it secret. It would seem the revelation of that secret to Catelyn would actually make her feel _better_ because she would no longer think that its her own husband's bastard living in Winterfell. Catelyn's real problem wasn't that Ned had fathered a bastard -- her "men have needs" rationale -- but that bringing Jon to Winterfell was the real sin. So, she should have looked at Brandon fathering Jon in the same manner, forgiven the dead Brandon, and been proud of Ned for protecting his nephew. The secrecy just doesn't make sense.

As for the argument that there were secret_s_ (plural), that too can be explained by Jon being the get of Lyanna and Brandon. Secret No. 1: Lyanna was not kidnapped by Rhaegar -- she loved him and went with him voluntarily. This secret protected Robert and his dignity. It even protected Robert's throne because it was the "kidnapping" that prompted the war. If it turns out Lyanna _fled_ Robert, Robert might be viewed in a different light.

Scret No. 2 is obviously Jon's actual parentage. So, we have two secrets without involving Brandon at all.

The only shred of doubt I have is fitting Ashara Dayne in all of this. Why did she throw herself off a cliff? I suppose she still might have had an affiar with Ned that did not produce a child, or maybe she just was upset about the killing of her various relations in the war. In any event, though, I don't see it as outweighing the powerful (as I see it) evidence of Jon being fathered by Rhaegar.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Aemon User ID: 9301033	Jul 29th 2:32 PM Who do you think Lyanna's child is? Jon? Or another person? I personally don't think that it is Jon. Maybe Eddard hid away her child? If so where? Please give me your opinions. I'm curious.
Paula User ID: 1035294	Jul 29th 11:28 PM I am fairly entrenched in the "Jon" camp. The most convincing argument to me is that Ned was too honorable to cheat on his wife. And there is that "he is of my blood" line. So given that Jon is obviously a Stark, it leaves Lyanna. I guess he could be Brandons somehow, but then why the secrecy?
Min User ID: 9433023	Jul 30th 12:55 PM Though I, too, think Jon is Lyanna's son, here is another possibility: He's Benjen's.
Rebecca User ID: 7538493	Aug 2nd 8:32 AM I too am in the Jon camp for all the reasons Paula states, plus the fact that Ned constantly feels guilty about having lied for 14 years. 1) This guilt always surfaces when he thinks about Jon. 2) at the time Jon was, uh, 14 years old.
Aemon User ID: 9301033	Aug 4th 0:57 AM For some reason, I think Jon is Brandon's son. He was supposed to marrie Catelyn, so that is a good reason for Eddard to keep him a secret.
Rebecca User ID: 7538493	Aug 4th 6:50 AM But then what was Ned's promise to Lyanna? It haunted him for 14 years.
Carol User ID: 9405543	Aug 4th 5:49 PM The bastard son of Brandon and Ashara Dain might make some sense, but then that means Leanna had a whole other secret, or that her child with Rhaegar is somewhere else -- with Howland Reed?
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Aug 4th 10:51 PM Someone made a point earlier in another thread regarding the chances of Jon being Brandon's get. If this were so, then Eddard wouldn't be the good guy we all know and love, because if Jon were Brandon's son, then he would rightfully be Lord of Winterfell. Bastard or no, if Eddard were the upright guy we got to know, then he would still bend knee to Jon. ab
labor	Aug 5th 1:33 AM No, if Jon were Brandon's _bastard_, he wouldn't rightfully be Lord of Winterfell. Bastards are, out of line of succession. Earlier Aemon proposed that Jon is a trueborn son of Brandon by his secret marriage with Ashara Dayne. I pointed out that in this case Eddard would be somewhat of a villain. However, if Jon is Brandon's bastard, why would Ned claim him as his own and why would he be so extremely secretive about his mother? If Jon's mother wasn't Lyanna, then Ned's total silence about her would be a completely unnecessary cruelty.
Aemon User ID: 9301033	Aug 6th 11:59 PM Ok, yes, I did think that Jon would be Brandon's son, but now it seems more likely that he would be Brandon's bastard. That way he wouldn't be in line for succession (though that would be a great plot twist). I think Eddard would have been secretive about it to save Brandon's and Ashara's honor. I remember something about Eddard saying he remembered the promises he made and the price he paid to keep them. It was promises-plural. That means more than one promise. One to Lyanna. One to Brandon (or Ashara). Oh, and by the way, I still think Lyanna had a son. I just don't believe that it's Jon. I do like the theory that Howland Reed has him. I'm trying to write this all down on my website. If you'd like to check it out it's at www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1043/jontheory.html Sorry, I felt the need to give publicity to my site. Oh, and if your into that movie thing, I'm trying to put up a family tree with pictures, so E-mail me some if you'd like. My E-mail is [email protected] More discussion please. I love this stuff.
Carol User ID: 9405543	Aug 8th 11:58 AM One could explain the "bond" between Ned and Dayne by the similarity of their situations if they both had a sister "dishonored" by an ill-advised love affair and a child without a father. Perhaps one of Ned's promises was to Sir Arthur Dayne, to take his sister's child and raise it as his own to spare her reputation. Ned's promise to Lyanna, then, would be to hide her child from Robert's people who were wholesale slaughtering Targaryens, and the place to hide him/her out of view of everyone who mattered was with Howland Reed.
Aemon User ID: 9301033	Aug 8th 7:57 PM My thoughts exactly. Though, I don't think that Lyanna and Rheagar's child is a bastard (if they had one). I think that Rheagar would have married Lyanna. I mean, who's going to tell him he can't marry however many women he wants.
Rebecca User ID: 7538493	Aug 9th 7:40 AM Carol: If Ned had promised Arthur Dayne that he would raise his (Arthur) sister's fatherless child as his (Ned) own, then why would Ned say that Jon is "of my blood and that is all you need know."?
labor	Aug 9th 1:11 PM Carol, Dorne is less patriarchal than the rest of Westeros. Women have equal rights concerning inheritance there, etc. What I mean is, it wasn't Ser Artur's right to dispose of the fate of Ashara's child or exact any promises from Ned on the matter. And if Ned did give such a promise, took the boy and Ashara killed herself because of it... Well it would certainly add a very dark hue to Ned's personality. I wouldn't care for it being true.
Carol User ID: 9405543	Aug 9th 1:11 PM Jon would be of his blood, if Brandon were his father.
Aemon User ID: 9301033	Aug 15th 4:20 PM Yes, Jon would be of Eddard's blood if he were Brandon's son. I think Ashara's killed herself because her love, Brandon, was dead. But, she got Eddard to take Brandon and her child first.
Mike User ID: 9836983	Aug 15th 11:25 PM I disagree with the Brandon/Ashara Dayne theory. Brandon was all set to marry Catelyn and he did not seem unpleased by the prospect. I mean, he fought a duel for her hand. Also, when would Brandon have met Ashara. He was at Winterfell and on his way to Riverrun when he went to KL and was killed. That means that Ashara would have had to get pregnant, at the latest, at the tourney where Rhaegar gave the laurel to Lyanna. I believe that Brandon was already betrothed by then, and there was no mention of Ashara being at the tourney.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Aug 16th 5:32 AM Heh. At the latest? The earliest, maybe, Mike. We can rule out that Ashara concieved Jon with Brandon at that tournament, because it would make Jon well over a year older to Dany. We know he's no more than 8-9 months older (i.e., around the scak of King's Landing, a _year_ into the war.) So, Jon was concieved two or three months into the war. Brandon's two or three months dead. No go.
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Aug 16th 10:04 AM I don't know why it makes me feel archaic, but I am firmly entrenched in the Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son camp. There are just to many hints in that direction in Eddard's POV chapters. No I don't have definitive proof. Eddard was the only person we've come across so far that knows anything about the events surrounding Lyanna's death. As far as I know the only person left alive to answer that question (about Lyanna'a death and child) is Howland Reed. Until we see or hear from him, we're swinging at shadows.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Aug 16th 11:20 AM I too am in the camp placing Jon as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar for all the reasons stated above. The most convincing for me is that this parentage is the one that would demand the utmost secrecy and best explains Ned's insistence on keeping that parentage so secret. If its Brandon and Ashara, so what? I suppose its a minor embarassment for Catelyn, but other than that I can see no real reason to keep it secret. It would seem the revelation of that secret to Catelyn would actually make her feel _better_ because she would no longer think that its her own husband's bastard living in Winterfell. Catelyn's real problem wasn't that Ned had fathered a bastard -- her "men have needs" rationale -- but that bringing Jon to Winterfell was the real sin. So, she should have looked at Brandon fathering Jon in the same manner, forgiven the dead Brandon, and been proud of Ned for protecting his nephew. The secrecy just doesn't make sense. As for the argument that there were secret_s_ (plural), that too can be explained by Jon being the get of Lyanna and Brandon. Secret No. 1: Lyanna was not kidnapped by Rhaegar -- she loved him and went with him voluntarily. This secret protected Robert and his dignity. It even protected Robert's throne because it was the "kidnapping" that prompted the war. If it turns out Lyanna _fled_ Robert, Robert might be viewed in a different light. Scret No. 2 is obviously Jon's actual parentage. So, we have two secrets without involving Brandon at all. The only shred of doubt I have is fitting Ashara Dayne in all of this. Why did she throw herself off a cliff? I suppose she still might have had an affiar with Ned that did not produce a child, or maybe she just was upset about the killing of her various relations in the war. In any event, though, I don't see it as outweighing the powerful (as I see it) evidence of Jon being fathered by Rhaegar.