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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Farseer Similarities

Justin
User ID: 9663323 Jul 29th 3:16 PM
I just finished the second book of the Farseer, and there are a lot of similarities to ASoIAF present in it. The obvious ones are in the similar characters - Fitz and Jon, Regal and Joffrey - but there are a lot of plot threads that are similar. For example: in ACoK, Brienne watches as her king Renly is killed from afar by his brother's command, and she is blamed for the murder. In Royal Assassin, Fitz watches as his King Shrewd is killed from afar by his son Regal's command, and he is accused of the murder. This is just one of many parallels. Anyone else a fan of both series and see more similarites they'd care to discuss. By the way the Farseer is great, thanks to whoever recommended it to me!

labor
User ID: 8479113 Jul 29th 5:47 PM

Justin, I liked the Farseer trilogy too, especially the first two books and the way the ending was handled.

There are a few things that really grated on me though:

1. I surely wouldn't have trained an aknowledged royal bastard to be a royal assassin. Blood ties and tests of loyality here or there (and their personal ties to Fitz left much to be desired), it would just strenghten the ever-present temptation to usurp the throne and actually make it _easy_ for him to do so.

2. Both Shrewd and Verity seemed to suffer under author-induced stupidity when after Galen's attempt on Verity they didn't realise that Regal will walk over their dead bodies and any number of other corpses to get the crown. And that the coterie trained by Galen cannot be trusted.

3. Their approach to Fitz's Skill-training was very stupid from start to finish. Verity knew what a man Galen was and still didn't didn't monitor the training. Later he was exhausting himself nearly to death, yet in winter he couldn't make time to train Fitz, who would have been a great help!

Having said that, I don't see much similarity between Joff and Regal. Regal's envy of his elder brothers was one of his most defining traits. And I certainly don't see any hints of Regal-Fitz dynamic between Joff and Jon. BTW Joff isn't much of an intriguer.

Also, in contrast to Fitz his family not only didn't try to use Jon, but more or less let him go. And we didn't see Jon serve his family in such a self-sacrificing manner either. No, I would say that beyond both being bastards, there is very little similarity between Jon and Fitz.

Keri Stevenson Jul 30th 9:30 AM
Labor: I agree about the Skill-training (that was the only one of your points that stuck out to me personally). Of course, it was partially to increase sympathy for Fitz, I think, that the author put him through that, but when you can *tell* that an author is doing it for character identification... well, that means the story is wearing a little thin at that particular point. And I did want to scream at how often they trusted the other characters over Fitz, and how few moves Fitz made on his own behalf, and so on...

But I did like the books, and I think they are different enough from "A Song of Ice and Fire" that they are a separate series. I think I see similiarities between Regal and Cersei, though :). Both wanting the throne, both willing to do anything to get it, both unable to see past the ends of their own noses in the planning...

labor Jul 30th 10:22 AM

Keri, that's an excellent point about Regal and Cersei. However, envy and ambition are very strong motivations for some people. And they are commonly associated with short-sightedness. Human history is crowded with RL prototypes of such villains, so I don't see any undue resemblance between ASOIAF and the Farseer trilogy.

Morever, I actually think that Cersei is somewhat more intelligent than Regal and that she wouldn't act quite as imbecilically if confronted with Red Corsairs. Nor would she be willing to trade away any territories - she is rather posessive and inclined towards "all or nothing" thinking.

As for similarities between Fitz and Jon - beyond both being bastards of very powerful lords, I see none, really.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Jul 30th 12:48 PM
Kay, here is your Farseer topic! :-)
Keri: Yes there are. Fitz and Jon both bonded to a wolf.

Keri Stevenson Aug 1st 10:12 AM
Min: I did miss that. Okay, my face is red :). Still, again, I don't think they're really patterned after each other. The greater presence of magic in the Farseer world is probably the greatest difference. Fitz's bond to Nighteyes is treated as magic, to the point of allowing Nighteyes to speak to him, while the bonds of the Stark children to their direwolves are slightly more mysterious, and even Summer hasn't started babbling in Bran's head. At least, not yet :).

I have to admit that, as far as that, I prefer the way Martin handles it (which is strange, because I usually like fantasies replete with magic rather than ones filled with the old clich� of "magic is dying and humans are taking over.") Again, not to say the Farseer trilogy isn't good writing. But I do think _A Song of Ice and Fire_ is better.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Aug 2nd 6:00 AM
Min;

I think I said most of what I wanted to say about the trilogy in my e-mails to you, but since I'm already posting...some general remarks. (Should I warn of spoilers, I wonder? Just in case...)

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

Did anyone think the trilogy ended extremely abrupt? The 'Quest' went on rather slow almost throughout all the book, and in the last few chapters, Hobb goes through a whole slew of events in no time - she seemed to be in an extreme hurry to get it finished!

And there were a whole lot of threads left hanging in the air - what happened to Rosemary, and with Kebal Rawbread, and more explanations on the nature of the Raiders, the Fool, etc. I mean, I'm not demanding that _everything_ should be 'solved' or 'revealed' to my satisfaction, but this was a bit over the top, IMHO. Maybe it's just this coupled with the ending that irks me...

Oh yeah...what's with the 'About the author' section? It just states "Robin Hobb is from Washington D.C.", and leaves it at that.
Quite the source of information!

Now, were I Jerry Seinfeld, I would probably have nodded knowingly, smiled, and said; "Well, that just says it all, doesn't it?". And then went on, nodding. :o)

Keri Stevenson Aug 5th 9:34 AM
I think the author section was that scarce because Robin Hobb is a pseudonym for the author Megan Lindholm, whose books under her own name are older and hard to find. (I haven't read anything else by her, except her colloboration with Steven Brust called _The Gypsy_, which is okay). She said she used a pseudonym because she needed to lie low for a while.

As for the ending:

*SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS!*

I agree that the fact she didn't reveal more information about the Raiders was puzzling. Okay, so it was the same as the effect of dragons flying overhead. That still doesn't explain how they made the things that did the Forging, where they found the magic, the lack of a face-to-face confrontation with a villian she seemed to have built up quite nicely, or why the Raiders spent such a long time in revenge when the original raids by the dragons were (I think) hundreds of years before.

Completely Personal Gripe: I was also disappointed that the dragons were constructs; I always am. I like them much better the way Martin handles them :).

(Note: Like I said before, I like the Farseer books. I just like _A Song of Ice and Fire_ better- and it is interesting to see a board where people critique the books, instead of offer unstinting praise, as is the case elsewhere :).

KAH
User ID: 9788223 Aug 9th 3:50 AM
Also;

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

I seem to recall there was mention of a greater evil _behind_ Kebal Rawbread, but we never hear anything about this later. (I think it was mentioned by Chade Fallstar in his reminiscing of his trip to the Outislands.

Dennis Williams
User ID: 0645514 Aug 12th 7:14 AM
Kerri I noticed that you were wondering about the raiders and the forging process etc..
Why didn't she elaborate? Did it occur to you that Robin is not finished with the Six Duchies or indeed Bingtown from her later trilogy. I feel that there is still another three books floating around in the back of Robins mind that will deal with these unresolved issues.

Keri Stevenson Aug 13th 9:42 AM
Dennis: I hadn't thought of that, mostly because I've been reading rumors that she is done with Fitz's story and that if she writes another series in the Six Duchies, it will be long after everyone involved in the first one is dead, which

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

would make the length of time between the first dragons and then the Forging by the raiders even more unbelievable. Maybe they are just rumors, though.

I tried reading _Ship of Magic_, the first book from the new trilogy. The only thing I could think was, "I want Fitz back." :).

Dennis Williams
User ID: 0645514 Aug 15th 1:35 AM
That's funny Kerrie I absolutely addored the FARSEER trilogy and was a firm believer that it can't get any better...but then I read "Ship of Magic". Lets face it Robin's just a LEGEND!! ;-]
I think you are right about Fitz not making anymore appearances but a story based on the raiders and where they come from should prove interesting reading though. What do you think?
By the By, what country do you hail from?

labor
User ID: 8479113 Aug 15th 8:57 AM

Well, I liked "Ship of Magic" too. Fitz is a great POV character, but I really prefer if there are several POV-characters, because it is a big strech when one person must be in the thick of events all the time. IMHO it was one of the things that hurt "Assasin's Quest". While Fitz was at court/ at Jhaampe, his being in the focus of action was logical, during the "Quest", when he was basically running around, it was artificial.
Also, there are a few things in Farseer trilogy which have "authorial fiat" written over them in large letters (see my previous post) and that's not the case so far in Liveship Traders. On the down-side, Fitz was more interesting than the new POVs. Oh, well, you can't have everything I guess.

Keri Stevenson Aug 15th 9:44 AM
Dennis: The reason I didn't like _Ship of Magic_ was mostly surface things that didn't seem to make sense to me. For example (at least to my ears) the characters all talked exactly the same way, no matter if they were pirate lord or noblewoman or servant. And the ships, while mildly interesting as ideas, didn't really work for me as characters. The most interesting character was the pirate (though I can't even remember his name now), and that's a little sad when you consider he probably *wasn't* supposed to be the hero of the story :). I might buy it if I could find it at a used book store- the copy I half-read I got from the library- but I don't plan on reading the rest of them without one more good crack at this one.

I think a story about the Raiders would be interesting, but only if it is A) either set in Fitz's time, and a reflection of what went on from their side, which would explain a lot, or B) set during the original time of war with the Six Duchies. I liked the way she resolved things in Assassin's Quest (for the most part :), and I think stories set after that would be a little less interesting, for me.

All of which is completely personal, of course.

I'm from the United States.

Labor: Funny, my preferences for character-telling are exactly the opposite :). I really do prefer it when it's first-person POV, or (what nobody seems to do any more) third-person limited, restricted to just one or two characters. GRRM has found a perfect balance, IMHO, by having a *limited* number of characters, and only having the Prologue told from an outsider's point of view. And even his characters, to be in the center of the action, do need to be noble lords and ladies with world-spanning destinies, or else stuck in a situation where so much is happening that something interesting is bound to happen to them; I think this will be the case with Sam in the next book. I don't really mind that; I've actually read more books about "serfs having royal blood and rising to lead the kingdom" than people who were royal from the beginning. (Notice the serf never stays a serf very long :).

That was a major reason (beside some gripes I already mentioned) why I didn't like _Assassin's Quest_ as much as I had hoped. It did seem to go on for a long time. The ending did make up for it, though.

And, as I mentioned above: Fitz really *was* more interesting than the characters in _Ship of Magic_, and I didn't really care about them in the first place.

Dennis Williams
User ID: 0645514 Aug 16th 1:15 AM
Point taken Keri! ;-]
You mentioned that you liked first person POV Have you read the "Warlord Chronicles" by Bernard Cornwell? If not, I highly recommend it as a damn good read! It's a first person trilogy set in Arthurian times. If you enjoy Fitzy Fitz then you are sure to LOVE Derfel who is the main character of the series. The titles in order are "The Winter King", "Enemy of God" and "Excalibur"
I'm glad to see that you are a GRRM fan as well!;-] What did you think of AKOK? It seemed more grittier than the first book and maybe a little over the top with all the swearing.
What do you think?

What part of the STATES are you from? I'm from an Outback Australian city called WAGGA WAGGA, which is Aboriginal for something or other. ;-]

Labor:I tend to agree with you about a diverse group of characters. "The more the merrier" I say!

Justin User ID: 9663323	Jul 29th 3:16 PM I just finished the second book of the Farseer, and there are a lot of similarities to ASoIAF present in it. The obvious ones are in the similar characters - Fitz and Jon, Regal and Joffrey - but there are a lot of plot threads that are similar. For example: in ACoK, Brienne watches as her king Renly is killed from afar by his brother's command, and she is blamed for the murder. In Royal Assassin, Fitz watches as his King Shrewd is killed from afar by his son Regal's command, and he is accused of the murder. This is just one of many parallels. Anyone else a fan of both series and see more similarites they'd care to discuss. By the way the Farseer is great, thanks to whoever recommended it to me!
labor User ID: 8479113	Jul 29th 5:47 PM Justin, I liked the Farseer trilogy too, especially the first two books and the way the ending was handled. There are a few things that really grated on me though: 1. I surely wouldn't have trained an aknowledged royal bastard to be a royal assassin. Blood ties and tests of loyality here or there (and their personal ties to Fitz left much to be desired), it would just strenghten the ever-present temptation to usurp the throne and actually make it _easy_ for him to do so. 2. Both Shrewd and Verity seemed to suffer under author-induced stupidity when after Galen's attempt on Verity they didn't realise that Regal will walk over their dead bodies and any number of other corpses to get the crown. And that the coterie trained by Galen cannot be trusted. 3. Their approach to Fitz's Skill-training was very stupid from start to finish. Verity knew what a man Galen was and still didn't didn't monitor the training. Later he was exhausting himself nearly to death, yet in winter he couldn't make time to train Fitz, who would have been a great help! Having said that, I don't see much similarity between Joff and Regal. Regal's envy of his elder brothers was one of his most defining traits. And I certainly don't see any hints of Regal-Fitz dynamic between Joff and Jon. BTW Joff isn't much of an intriguer. Also, in contrast to Fitz his family not only didn't try to use Jon, but more or less let him go. And we didn't see Jon serve his family in such a self-sacrificing manner either. No, I would say that beyond both being bastards, there is very little similarity between Jon and Fitz.
Keri Stevenson	Jul 30th 9:30 AM Labor: I agree about the Skill-training (that was the only one of your points that stuck out to me personally). Of course, it was partially to increase sympathy for Fitz, I think, that the author put him through that, but when you can tell that an author is doing it for character identification... well, that means the story is wearing a little thin at that particular point. And I did want to scream at how often they trusted the other characters over Fitz, and how few moves Fitz made on his own behalf, and so on... But I did like the books, and I think they are different enough from "A Song of Ice and Fire" that they are a separate series. I think I see similiarities between Regal and Cersei, though :). Both wanting the throne, both willing to do anything to get it, both unable to see past the ends of their own noses in the planning...
labor	Jul 30th 10:22 AM Keri, that's an excellent point about Regal and Cersei. However, envy and ambition are very strong motivations for some people. And they are commonly associated with short-sightedness. Human history is crowded with RL prototypes of such villains, so I don't see any undue resemblance between ASOIAF and the Farseer trilogy. Morever, I actually think that Cersei is somewhat more intelligent than Regal and that she wouldn't act quite as imbecilically if confronted with Red Corsairs. Nor would she be willing to trade away any territories - she is rather posessive and inclined towards "all or nothing" thinking. As for similarities between Fitz and Jon - beyond both being bastards of very powerful lords, I see none, really.
Min User ID: 9433023	Jul 30th 12:48 PM Kay, here is your Farseer topic! :-) Keri: Yes there are. Fitz and Jon both bonded to a wolf.
Keri Stevenson	Aug 1st 10:12 AM Min: I did miss that. Okay, my face is red :). Still, again, I don't think they're really patterned after each other. The greater presence of magic in the Farseer world is probably the greatest difference. Fitz's bond to Nighteyes is treated as magic, to the point of allowing Nighteyes to speak to him, while the bonds of the Stark children to their direwolves are slightly more mysterious, and even Summer hasn't started babbling in Bran's head. At least, not yet :). I have to admit that, as far as that, I prefer the way Martin handles it (which is strange, because I usually like fantasies replete with magic rather than ones filled with the old clich� of "magic is dying and humans are taking over.") Again, not to say the Farseer trilogy isn't good writing. But I do think _A Song of Ice and Fire_ is better.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Aug 2nd 6:00 AM Min; I think I said most of what I wanted to say about the trilogy in my e-mails to you, but since I'm already posting...some general remarks. (Should I warn of spoilers, I wonder? Just in case...) SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS Did anyone think the trilogy ended extremely abrupt? The 'Quest' went on rather slow almost throughout all the book, and in the last few chapters, Hobb goes through a whole slew of events in no time - she seemed to be in an extreme hurry to get it finished! And there were a whole lot of threads left hanging in the air - what happened to Rosemary, and with Kebal Rawbread, and more explanations on the nature of the Raiders, the Fool, etc. I mean, I'm not demanding that _everything_ should be 'solved' or 'revealed' to my satisfaction, but this was a bit over the top, IMHO. Maybe it's just this coupled with the ending that irks me... Oh yeah...what's with the 'About the author' section? It just states "Robin Hobb is from Washington D.C.", and leaves it at that. Quite the source of information! Now, were I Jerry Seinfeld, I would probably have nodded knowingly, smiled, and said; "Well, that just says it all, doesn't it?". And then went on, nodding. :o)
Keri Stevenson	Aug 5th 9:34 AM I think the author section was that scarce because Robin Hobb is a pseudonym for the author Megan Lindholm, whose books under her own name are older and hard to find. (I haven't read anything else by her, except her colloboration with Steven Brust called _The Gypsy_, which is okay). She said she used a pseudonym because she needed to lie low for a while. As for the ending: SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS! I agree that the fact she didn't reveal more information about the Raiders was puzzling. Okay, so it was the same as the effect of dragons flying overhead. That still doesn't explain how they made the things that did the Forging, where they found the magic, the lack of a face-to-face confrontation with a villian she seemed to have built up quite nicely, or why the Raiders spent such a long time in revenge when the original raids by the dragons were (I think) hundreds of years before. Completely Personal Gripe: I was also disappointed that the dragons were constructs; I always am. I like them much better the way Martin handles them :). (Note: Like I said before, I like the Farseer books. I just like _A Song of Ice and Fire_ better- and it is interesting to see a board where people critique the books, instead of offer unstinting praise, as is the case elsewhere :).
KAH User ID: 9788223	Aug 9th 3:50 AM Also; SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS I seem to recall there was mention of a greater evil _behind_ Kebal Rawbread, but we never hear anything about this later. (I think it was mentioned by Chade Fallstar in his reminiscing of his trip to the Outislands.
Dennis Williams User ID: 0645514	Aug 12th 7:14 AM Kerri I noticed that you were wondering about the raiders and the forging process etc.. Why didn't she elaborate? Did it occur to you that Robin is not finished with the Six Duchies or indeed Bingtown from her later trilogy. I feel that there is still another three books floating around in the back of Robins mind that will deal with these unresolved issues.
Keri Stevenson	Aug 13th 9:42 AM Dennis: I hadn't thought of that, mostly because I've been reading rumors that she is done with Fitz's story and that if she writes another series in the Six Duchies, it will be long after everyone involved in the first one is dead, which SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS would make the length of time between the first dragons and then the Forging by the raiders even more unbelievable. Maybe they are just rumors, though. I tried reading _Ship of Magic_, the first book from the new trilogy. The only thing I could think was, "I want Fitz back." :).
Dennis Williams User ID: 0645514	Aug 15th 1:35 AM That's funny Kerrie I absolutely addored the FARSEER trilogy and was a firm believer that it can't get any better...but then I read "Ship of Magic". Lets face it Robin's just a LEGEND!! ;-] I think you are right about Fitz not making anymore appearances but a story based on the raiders and where they come from should prove interesting reading though. What do you think? By the By, what country do you hail from?
labor User ID: 8479113	Aug 15th 8:57 AM Well, I liked "Ship of Magic" too. Fitz is a great POV character, but I really prefer if there are several POV-characters, because it is a big strech when one person must be in the thick of events all the time. IMHO it was one of the things that hurt "Assasin's Quest". While Fitz was at court/ at Jhaampe, his being in the focus of action was logical, during the "Quest", when he was basically running around, it was artificial. Also, there are a few things in Farseer trilogy which have "authorial fiat" written over them in large letters (see my previous post) and that's not the case so far in Liveship Traders. On the down-side, Fitz was more interesting than the new POVs. Oh, well, you can't have everything I guess.
Keri Stevenson	Aug 15th 9:44 AM Dennis: The reason I didn't like _Ship of Magic_ was mostly surface things that didn't seem to make sense to me. For example (at least to my ears) the characters all talked exactly the same way, no matter if they were pirate lord or noblewoman or servant. And the ships, while mildly interesting as ideas, didn't really work for me as characters. The most interesting character was the pirate (though I can't even remember his name now), and that's a little sad when you consider he probably wasn't supposed to be the hero of the story :). I might buy it if I could find it at a used book store- the copy I half-read I got from the library- but I don't plan on reading the rest of them without one more good crack at this one. I think a story about the Raiders would be interesting, but only if it is A) either set in Fitz's time, and a reflection of what went on from their side, which would explain a lot, or B) set during the original time of war with the Six Duchies. I liked the way she resolved things in Assassin's Quest (for the most part :), and I think stories set after that would be a little less interesting, for me. All of which is completely personal, of course. I'm from the United States. Labor: Funny, my preferences for character-telling are exactly the opposite :). I really do prefer it when it's first-person POV, or (what nobody seems to do any more) third-person limited, restricted to just one or two characters. GRRM has found a perfect balance, IMHO, by having a limited number of characters, and only having the Prologue told from an outsider's point of view. And even his characters, to be in the center of the action, do need to be noble lords and ladies with world-spanning destinies, or else stuck in a situation where so much is happening that something interesting is bound to happen to them; I think this will be the case with Sam in the next book. I don't really mind that; I've actually read more books about "serfs having royal blood and rising to lead the kingdom" than people who were royal from the beginning. (Notice the serf never stays a serf very long :). That was a major reason (beside some gripes I already mentioned) why I didn't like _Assassin's Quest_ as much as I had hoped. It did seem to go on for a long time. The ending did make up for it, though. And, as I mentioned above: Fitz really was more interesting than the characters in _Ship of Magic_, and I didn't really care about them in the first place.
Dennis Williams User ID: 0645514	Aug 16th 1:15 AM Point taken Keri! ;-] You mentioned that you liked first person POV Have you read the "Warlord Chronicles" by Bernard Cornwell? If not, I highly recommend it as a damn good read! It's a first person trilogy set in Arthurian times. If you enjoy Fitzy Fitz then you are sure to LOVE Derfel who is the main character of the series. The titles in order are "The Winter King", "Enemy of God" and "Excalibur" I'm glad to see that you are a GRRM fan as well!;-] What did you think of AKOK? It seemed more grittier than the first book and maybe a little over the top with all the swearing. What do you think? What part of the STATES are you from? I'm from an Outback Australian city called WAGGA WAGGA, which is Aboriginal for something or other. ;-] Labor:I tend to agree with you about a diverse group of characters. "The more the merrier" I say!