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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Nits to Pick II

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labor
User ID: 0798784 Dec 31st 8:06 AM
Well, there is a nit I noticed, which deserves a new thread, IMHO.Namely, transportation of the criminals who agreed/were induced to join the Night's Watch to the Wall and their status before they speak the words.

We have seen that a party of criminals, even such serious ones as rapers/robbers/murderers is usually accompanied by just one Black Brother. So, what prevents a criminal from taking away as soon as he is away from the territories where he could be easily recognized? Sure, the brother can circulate the criminal's description in the area, but with their level of technology that's not saying much and verification would be difficult. So, hide for a few days, walk hard at nights and you are out of it.Or alternatively, make a common cause with your fellow "recruits" and there won't be Black Brother to report you.Go far, far away (Westeros is big) and start anew.

Morever, what happens if once at the Wall and deemed ready, the criminal refuses to say the words? Does the Watch carry out the decreed punishment or what?

Morever, what about such people as Janos Slynt and his cronies? IIRC they were just bundled on a trade ship, without any guards. So, what should hinder them to bribe the captain and leave the ship somewhere en route? Also, as they didn't have a trial, it would seem that they can refuse to speak the words with impunity and leave the Wall.

Thoughts?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Dec 31st 11:13 AM
I suspect they're being paid very well. What is Janos going to bribe the captain with, if he's bundled straight into that ship? Promises? The guy already has Tyrion's gold, why should he believe Slynt's promises?

And yes, while they could refuse the words and go back south ... who are they going to go to for help? Janos has already been relieved of his position and of Harrenhal. The Hand decreed it, and Tyrion seems to have moved so quickly that Cersei didn't really bother to argue (partly, I suspect, because she was still upset at Slynt for killing Ned without her permission.)

As to the rapers and like ... There were only a couple of small-time criminals in that party with Yoren. The really bad ones were chained up. We see another party early in GoT with two or three rapers, brothers ... but Yoren no doubt is quite expert in showing that he's much more a bad ass than they are.

I don't think one or two guys, generally dumb criminals, can outwit an experienced, skilled brother of the Night's Watch who has been collecting recruits for the last 20+ years. So long as the party stays small (or criminals are only a very small portion of the party), the brothers of the Watch shouldn't have a problem.

Sir Galahad
User ID: 0276214 Jan 2nd 2:28 AM
LABOR: I agree with Ran on Slynt. He pretty
much got tossed out of there too quick to react.
And, in ACOK, Tyrion needed to move fast to oust him.

As for the others and your questions, those are
good questions. I imagine most criminals in dungeons would rather be in the Black Watch than go back into the dungeons. Moreover, they might get worse treatment on their return.

As for hiding out, that's certainly a possibility, but I think one would be better off out of Westeros. The Old Bear's son took off to the Free Cities rather than face punishment for poaching.

Other than that, the rest of my replies would be pure speculation.

Swami
User ID: 9809413 Jan 3rd 5:26 AM
I've got a couple of questions.

(1) Is there any land west of the Seven Kingdoms? If not, what is the position of "Warden of the West" (held by Tywin) good for? Ned Stark seemed to think it quite an important post to hold, but I don't remember reading why.

(2) How come, after the Lannisters were attacked in KL by the mob crowd, Tyrion really gets stuck into Joff, slapping him, shoving him with both hands and sending him sprawling, calling him a 'blind bloody fool', and *kicking him* while he is on the ground - and yet Cersei, who is obviously right next to him, does nothing? I thought she was meant to be really protective of her son? It strikes me as being totally out of character that she would just meekly stand by and watch while Joff gets pulverised, no matter *how* shocked she may have been by the mob.

Any comments?

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 3rd 8:39 AM
Swithin, the Iron Isles are out that way, so I would assume that defending against ironmen raids in the Riverlands or further south might be part of the Warden's duties. But I do think you've got a point about the importance of the Warden. I don't recall a single bannermen or lord lining up behind the Warden as opposed to bannerman's leige -- I just don't see how the "Wardenships" mattered at all during this civil war.

As for Cersei, I think that everyone was pretty much in shock over what happened. Tyrion just thought and acted faster than the rest and Cersei was still too shaken to do or say anything.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 3rd 12:38 PM
The Wardenship of the West has to with the western lands _of_ the Seven Kingdoms, not _west of_ the Seven Kingdoms. I.e, the Westerlands. Whether the Iron Islands are to be marshalled under the Warden of the West or of the North is a question.

While Ned's comment about Jaime is rather odd in context of the events in the books, I think it's easier to understand in terms of him warning that in the far future it _might_ matter.

The Warden isn't really important unless the king calls for the marshalling of the royal army, in which case they will be in nominal command of the troops from their ward and perhaps in nominal command of all troops (under the king in both cases) should the fighting be taking place within their ward.

So, imagine if Jaime is official, royally-sanctioned leader of half the royal army. Well, they're not personally loyal to him, certainly, but in his hands would be all the official responsibilities -- seeing that supplies get procured and sent to the right place, judging disputes within the army, etc.

It's not impossible to see Jaime being able to sabotage the royal army to further Lannister interests, given his position. He won't be able to lead the wardenships into rebellion, but if he wanted to, he could seriously compromise the royal army.

As to Cersei, truth be told, I always figured she actually realized Joffrey's culpability and, for just that instant, didn't much care for him. That would have slowed her reaction, which as Jeff says, would have been slowed anyhow because of the danger they all just barely escaped, leaving her shaken.

Mind, this is just my reading; being shaken and surprised is enough alone. I think, however, that she can make excuses for him after the fact, but at the very moment where he's done something terrible, I think it'd be impossible for her not to realize that her son is a monster and a fool.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 3rd 12:49 PM
Ran, that all makes sense to me.

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Jan 3rd 3:02 PM
I always thought that the Wardenship's stood for Overlordship. Meaning the Warden of the North is the Overlord of the North, and only has the King (Hand too I suppose) to answer too. It seems like the Wardens are Kings in their own right, and that the KL King, is likened to a High King (a'la Fingolfin being High King over Turgon, Finrod, Maedhros, etc. . .)

ab

ab

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 3rd 6:30 PM
Doesn't work. It's clearly a military jurisdiction, not a governmental one. Otherwise, Dorne would be subject to the Reach, for example, which is something that would never happen.

Street Prophet
User ID: 0178794 Jan 6th 2:44 PM
Just a quick couple of questions. I know a warg is basically someone who has an animal kinship of some sort and they may or may not become animals themselves when they die. And I'm pretty certain that a lizard lion is a crocodile or alligator.
But could someone tell me what a grumkin, snark, aurochs and manticore is? I know what a manticore looks like in D and D, but they seem to have human features and come in a variety of sizes in ASOFAI. Can anyone help me?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 6th 3:19 PM
A lizard lion is, pretty much, an alligator (though perhaps bigger.)

Grumkins and snarks are make-believe monsters. 'Snark' is no doubt a borrowing from Lewis Caroll who had a humorous verse in which (IIRC, been awhile) they hunt some terrible beast called a snark. Couldn't place grumkin, though.

An auroch is a large wild ox, quite huge, which existed in the Stone Age. They were eventually hunted out of existence, though domesticated cattle were seemingly bred from them. Aurochs still exist in the Seven Kingdoms, though, and there are mammoths north of the Wall, and direwolves too -- all creatures which were killed off in our pre-history.

Manticores appear to be uniformly small things. I doubt any get bigger than about a hand. My impression is that they're like scorpions, but much more colorful and able to curl up into something like a scarab. Pincer claws, poisoned tail, and so on. Of course, they also seem to have an almost man-like face (a reference to Martin's own "Sandkings" maybe?)

Street Prophet
User ID: 0178794 Jan 7th 2:55 AM
Thank you Ran, you've been very helpful.

Street Prophet
User ID: 0178794 Jan 7th 3:00 AM
Wait a minute, uno momento. There were actually direwolves in pre-history? Were they actually the size they say they are in A Song of Ice and Fire?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 7th 3:41 AM
Yes, there were direwolves, but I think Martin has exaggerated them somewhat. While they were heavier and larger than modern timber wolves (the largest wolves I'm aware of), I don't believe they were pony size. Then again, ponies have a big range in size, so perhaps there are ponies which they are about a height with.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jan 7th 8:44 PM
I assumed that the penalty was death for a criminal who deserted the Watch, even if it was during transportation/before he said the words, etc. Otherwise, I suppose they would be likely to run off and risk being found. As it is, some probably do run off, but most probably prefer not to take the risk.

FTS
User ID: 0958254 Jan 19th 9:31 PM
On prehistoric direwolves:

I actually just saw a stuffed direwolf at the Smithsonian museum yesterday. According to the information there, direwolves were a bit larger than present-day wolves, but the stuffed ones on display were the size of large German Shepherds. However, the isolation of the North could have fostered gigantism in the breed, in addition to selecting for more accurate perception (Cloud's ability to detect and tolerate wights).

Anon
User ID: 2205324 Jan 20th 1:04 PM
Why isn't Ser Morton Waynwood called Lord Morton, and how come the two Royces are brothers yet still hold major keeps.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 20th 2:21 PM
The Royces aren't siblings. :) Nestor Royce is a cousin of Bronze Yohn Royce, of a lesser branch of House Royce. "Cousin" is probably used loosely, as nobility often did, for people related many generations back. At least, I presume so, since GRRM has us list both House Royces on our heraldry page (which is aimed at representing existing houses of about 150 years before the books.)

Lady Anya Waynwood was probably the only daughter of the previous lord, or the only surviving child of same. She married someone or other(possibly a Waynwood cousin, possibly not), he died, her sibling/father died, and she was next in line. Taking back the Waynwood name (if necessary, and her sons doing the same), she became lady there.

Mail #47 in the So Spake Martin collection seems to support the idea that, after male sons and sons of male sons, a daughter can be in line, though there might be other issues there.

labor
User ID: 0526904 Jan 20th 2:24 PM
Anon, I figure that Lady Any Waynwood inherited her lands from her family and thus is a ruling Lady, like Lady Mormont, Lady Oakheart, Lady Tanda Stokeworth etc. Ser Morton is her son and heir.

As to Royces, IMHO they aren't brothers but belong to two different branches of the family, both of which happen to be landed. IIRC there ar a few others like them - i.e. Vances, etc.

Anon
User ID: 2205324 Jan 21st 6:27 PM
Ran, ACOK appendix (UK version) - "LORD NESTOR ROYCE, brother of Lord Yohn", although GRRM does mention in AGOT that Nestor is from a "lesser branch" than Bronze Yohn. It was the hereldry page that got me wondering if the two brothers belonged to what are, in effect, different Houses with different sigils.

Labour, IIRC none of the other Houses has any male heirs (apart from Jorah or possibly Arys, who are both excluded for various reasons).

Incidentally Ran, do you know how Rhaeger got to choose the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal if it was a multiple champion/challenger format?

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labor User ID: 0798784	Dec 31st 8:06 AM Well, there is a nit I noticed, which deserves a new thread, IMHO.Namely, transportation of the criminals who agreed/were induced to join the Night's Watch to the Wall and their status before they speak the words. We have seen that a party of criminals, even such serious ones as rapers/robbers/murderers is usually accompanied by just one Black Brother. So, what prevents a criminal from taking away as soon as he is away from the territories where he could be easily recognized? Sure, the brother can circulate the criminal's description in the area, but with their level of technology that's not saying much and verification would be difficult. So, hide for a few days, walk hard at nights and you are out of it.Or alternatively, make a common cause with your fellow "recruits" and there won't be Black Brother to report you.Go far, far away (Westeros is big) and start anew. Morever, what happens if once at the Wall and deemed ready, the criminal refuses to say the words? Does the Watch carry out the decreed punishment or what? Morever, what about such people as Janos Slynt and his cronies? IIRC they were just bundled on a trade ship, without any guards. So, what should hinder them to bribe the captain and leave the ship somewhere en route? Also, as they didn't have a trial, it would seem that they can refuse to speak the words with impunity and leave the Wall. Thoughts?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Dec 31st 11:13 AM I suspect they're being paid very well. What is Janos going to bribe the captain with, if he's bundled straight into that ship? Promises? The guy already has Tyrion's gold, why should he believe Slynt's promises? And yes, while they could refuse the words and go back south ... who are they going to go to for help? Janos has already been relieved of his position and of Harrenhal. The Hand decreed it, and Tyrion seems to have moved so quickly that Cersei didn't really bother to argue (partly, I suspect, because she was still upset at Slynt for killing Ned without her permission.) As to the rapers and like ... There were only a couple of small-time criminals in that party with Yoren. The really bad ones were chained up. We see another party early in GoT with two or three rapers, brothers ... but Yoren no doubt is quite expert in showing that he's much more a bad ass than they are. I don't think one or two guys, generally dumb criminals, can outwit an experienced, skilled brother of the Night's Watch who has been collecting recruits for the last 20+ years. So long as the party stays small (or criminals are only a very small portion of the party), the brothers of the Watch shouldn't have a problem.
Sir Galahad User ID: 0276214	Jan 2nd 2:28 AM LABOR: I agree with Ran on Slynt. He pretty much got tossed out of there too quick to react. And, in ACOK, Tyrion needed to move fast to oust him. As for the others and your questions, those are good questions. I imagine most criminals in dungeons would rather be in the Black Watch than go back into the dungeons. Moreover, they might get worse treatment on their return. As for hiding out, that's certainly a possibility, but I think one would be better off out of Westeros. The Old Bear's son took off to the Free Cities rather than face punishment for poaching. Other than that, the rest of my replies would be pure speculation.
Swami User ID: 9809413	Jan 3rd 5:26 AM I've got a couple of questions. (1) Is there any land west of the Seven Kingdoms? If not, what is the position of "Warden of the West" (held by Tywin) good for? Ned Stark seemed to think it quite an important post to hold, but I don't remember reading why. (2) How come, after the Lannisters were attacked in KL by the mob crowd, Tyrion really gets stuck into Joff, slapping him, shoving him with both hands and sending him sprawling, calling him a 'blind bloody fool', and kicking him while he is on the ground - and yet Cersei, who is obviously right next to him, does nothing? I thought she was meant to be really protective of her son? It strikes me as being totally out of character that she would just meekly stand by and watch while Joff gets pulverised, no matter how shocked she may have been by the mob. Any comments?
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 3rd 8:39 AM Swithin, the Iron Isles are out that way, so I would assume that defending against ironmen raids in the Riverlands or further south might be part of the Warden's duties. But I do think you've got a point about the importance of the Warden. I don't recall a single bannermen or lord lining up behind the Warden as opposed to bannerman's leige -- I just don't see how the "Wardenships" mattered at all during this civil war. As for Cersei, I think that everyone was pretty much in shock over what happened. Tyrion just thought and acted faster than the rest and Cersei was still too shaken to do or say anything.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 3rd 12:38 PM The Wardenship of the West has to with the western lands _of_ the Seven Kingdoms, not _west of_ the Seven Kingdoms. I.e, the Westerlands. Whether the Iron Islands are to be marshalled under the Warden of the West or of the North is a question. While Ned's comment about Jaime is rather odd in context of the events in the books, I think it's easier to understand in terms of him warning that in the far future it _might_ matter. The Warden isn't really important unless the king calls for the marshalling of the royal army, in which case they will be in nominal command of the troops from their ward and perhaps in nominal command of all troops (under the king in both cases) should the fighting be taking place within their ward. So, imagine if Jaime is official, royally-sanctioned leader of half the royal army. Well, they're not personally loyal to him, certainly, but in his hands would be all the official responsibilities -- seeing that supplies get procured and sent to the right place, judging disputes within the army, etc. It's not impossible to see Jaime being able to sabotage the royal army to further Lannister interests, given his position. He won't be able to lead the wardenships into rebellion, but if he wanted to, he could seriously compromise the royal army. As to Cersei, truth be told, I always figured she actually realized Joffrey's culpability and, for just that instant, didn't much care for him. That would have slowed her reaction, which as Jeff says, would have been slowed anyhow because of the danger they all just barely escaped, leaving her shaken. Mind, this is just my reading; being shaken and surprised is enough alone. I think, however, that she can make excuses for him after the fact, but at the very moment where he's done something terrible, I think it'd be impossible for her not to realize that her son is a monster and a fool.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 3rd 12:49 PM Ran, that all makes sense to me.
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Jan 3rd 3:02 PM I always thought that the Wardenship's stood for Overlordship. Meaning the Warden of the North is the Overlord of the North, and only has the King (Hand too I suppose) to answer too. It seems like the Wardens are Kings in their own right, and that the KL King, is likened to a High King (a'la Fingolfin being High King over Turgon, Finrod, Maedhros, etc. . .) ab ab
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 3rd 6:30 PM Doesn't work. It's clearly a military jurisdiction, not a governmental one. Otherwise, Dorne would be subject to the Reach, for example, which is something that would never happen.
Street Prophet User ID: 0178794	Jan 6th 2:44 PM Just a quick couple of questions. I know a warg is basically someone who has an animal kinship of some sort and they may or may not become animals themselves when they die. And I'm pretty certain that a lizard lion is a crocodile or alligator. But could someone tell me what a grumkin, snark, aurochs and manticore is? I know what a manticore looks like in D and D, but they seem to have human features and come in a variety of sizes in ASOFAI. Can anyone help me?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 6th 3:19 PM A lizard lion is, pretty much, an alligator (though perhaps bigger.) Grumkins and snarks are make-believe monsters. 'Snark' is no doubt a borrowing from Lewis Caroll who had a humorous verse in which (IIRC, been awhile) they hunt some terrible beast called a snark. Couldn't place grumkin, though. An auroch is a large wild ox, quite huge, which existed in the Stone Age. They were eventually hunted out of existence, though domesticated cattle were seemingly bred from them. Aurochs still exist in the Seven Kingdoms, though, and there are mammoths north of the Wall, and direwolves too -- all creatures which were killed off in our pre-history. Manticores appear to be uniformly small things. I doubt any get bigger than about a hand. My impression is that they're like scorpions, but much more colorful and able to curl up into something like a scarab. Pincer claws, poisoned tail, and so on. Of course, they also seem to have an almost man-like face (a reference to Martin's own "Sandkings" maybe?)
Street Prophet User ID: 0178794	Jan 7th 2:55 AM Thank you Ran, you've been very helpful.
Street Prophet User ID: 0178794	Jan 7th 3:00 AM Wait a minute, uno momento. There were actually direwolves in pre-history? Were they actually the size they say they are in A Song of Ice and Fire?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 7th 3:41 AM Yes, there were direwolves, but I think Martin has exaggerated them somewhat. While they were heavier and larger than modern timber wolves (the largest wolves I'm aware of), I don't believe they were pony size. Then again, ponies have a big range in size, so perhaps there are ponies which they are about a height with.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jan 7th 8:44 PM I assumed that the penalty was death for a criminal who deserted the Watch, even if it was during transportation/before he said the words, etc. Otherwise, I suppose they would be likely to run off and risk being found. As it is, some probably do run off, but most probably prefer not to take the risk.
FTS User ID: 0958254	Jan 19th 9:31 PM On prehistoric direwolves: I actually just saw a stuffed direwolf at the Smithsonian museum yesterday. According to the information there, direwolves were a bit larger than present-day wolves, but the stuffed ones on display were the size of large German Shepherds. However, the isolation of the North could have fostered gigantism in the breed, in addition to selecting for more accurate perception (Cloud's ability to detect and tolerate wights).
Anon User ID: 2205324	Jan 20th 1:04 PM Why isn't Ser Morton Waynwood called Lord Morton, and how come the two Royces are brothers yet still hold major keeps.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 20th 2:21 PM The Royces aren't siblings. :) Nestor Royce is a cousin of Bronze Yohn Royce, of a lesser branch of House Royce. "Cousin" is probably used loosely, as nobility often did, for people related many generations back. At least, I presume so, since GRRM has us list both House Royces on our heraldry page (which is aimed at representing existing houses of about 150 years before the books.) Lady Anya Waynwood was probably the only daughter of the previous lord, or the only surviving child of same. She married someone or other(possibly a Waynwood cousin, possibly not), he died, her sibling/father died, and she was next in line. Taking back the Waynwood name (if necessary, and her sons doing the same), she became lady there. Mail #47 in the So Spake Martin collection seems to support the idea that, after male sons and sons of male sons, a daughter can be in line, though there might be other issues there.
labor User ID: 0526904	Jan 20th 2:24 PM Anon, I figure that Lady Any Waynwood inherited her lands from her family and thus is a ruling Lady, like Lady Mormont, Lady Oakheart, Lady Tanda Stokeworth etc. Ser Morton is her son and heir. As to Royces, IMHO they aren't brothers but belong to two different branches of the family, both of which happen to be landed. IIRC there ar a few others like them - i.e. Vances, etc.
Anon User ID: 2205324	Jan 21st 6:27 PM Ran, ACOK appendix (UK version) - "LORD NESTOR ROYCE, brother of Lord Yohn", although GRRM does mention in AGOT that Nestor is from a "lesser branch" than Bronze Yohn. It was the hereldry page that got me wondering if the two brothers belonged to what are, in effect, different Houses with different sigils. Labour, IIRC none of the other Houses has any male heirs (apart from Jorah or possibly Arys, who are both excluded for various reasons). Incidentally Ran, do you know how Rhaeger got to choose the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal if it was a multiple champion/challenger format?