A mirror of the eeesite "A Song of Ice and Fire"

This is a mirror of the now defunct eesite ASOIAF webboard.

The discussions for G.R.R. Martin's awesome series "A Song of Ice and Fire" are now being held at: Current ASoIaF Webboard

You cannot post new messages to this board. Go to the Current ASoIaF Webboard for the most current discussions.

A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Redemption II

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 8th 10:36 AM
As Jeff made up this topic and brilliantly described what it is about, I will quote him here:

"One of the themes that seems to pop up in a lot of posts involves the concept of redemption. Related to that is the desire to look for motivations for what made a "bad" character bad, as in Sandor's burning, Tywin's loss of a beloved wife, Theon being treated poorly by his family, etc. A lot of us look to these people and incidents for the possibility that the character can be redeemed, that he or she really isn't such a "bad guy"."

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 8th 10:37 AM
And Jeff's last post:
______________________
Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 7th 1:54 PM
Min, I don't view Theon as a cynic. To me, a cynic recognizes the existence of various virtues and has become jaded because those virtues are never attained. I've never seen anything from Theon showing him to have a recognition or understanding of any virtues.

Give me just _one_ example of Theon doing or even thinking about doing something out of idealism or a sense of goodness.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 8th 10:38 AM
Gotcha.
Theon thinks of Ned all the time. I don't have the books at hand, but I think I don't need to give pages and lines. He always thinks stuff like "What would Ned say to this", "Ned wouldn't like this" and some such.

That was the basis on which I said that Theon loved and admired Ned. That is where his moral standards come from. These are the virtues that "never are attained".

I will NOT use the example of Theon helping Bran against the wildling's assault - you could (and would) explain it as just something which served his purposes, and you would be right.

Instead, I referr of his permanent thinking of Ned, of his wheighing his decisions to Ned's moral standards - though he never acts appropriately, I know.

And you can see that he's a cynic by his humour. I think THAT'S the reason I always kinda liked him. I liked his black humour... :-)

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 8th 11:03 AM
Doing something because Ned would approve or even just "thinking of Ned" is not the same as a desire to do something "good" or even a belief in things that are "good". Was Theon desperate for approval from a father figure? I think so. But that still cuts in favor of the point I've made. Any "good" actions he might have taken were because of his desire for fatherly approval, not because the acts were good in themselves. He does not thinks about whether the actions are right or wrong -- its whether they'll earn approval from Ned that matters to him. Had he been fostered by a nasty bastard like Tywin or even raised by his own father, I'm quite sure right and wrong still would have been irrelevant to him.

Min, I take it from your response that you couldn't find a single act by Theon that was based upon idealism of any kind. Am I correct?

labor
User ID: 8785553 Sep 8th 12:39 PM

Agree with you, Jeff. What puts off me personally, is that Theon is uncapable of any deep feelings - we have seen from his POV and not even once does he display love or loyality. All of his being is centered on himself. That's why I judge him less favorably than Jaime or even Cersei - at least they are capable of strong love. Twisted, I know, but it is IMHO better than Theon's hollowness.

Keri Stevenson Sep 17th 6:55 AM
Labor,

One thing about the point you're making (that struck me) is that Theon seemed to care so much about the Iron Islands while he was away from them, to want to see them rise again... but then he returned, and all he wants to see them do is accept him as king. He couldn't be happy that Asha had proven to be a strong heir with him away and his brothers dead, and so the Islands hadn't suffered. And I don't think it's because he has a dislike of women or sees them inferior; I think that's true, but in this case, his thinking is more along the lines of "I should have been king!" For someone who purportedly cares about the strength of his country, that makes him sound like a spoiled brat.

At the same time, he may have a conscience of some kind. His constant thinking of Ned must indicate something, maybe not cynicism. Maybe just enough of the Starks' standards got inside him to make him uneasy about some of the things he wants to do. Then there are his nightmares... I don't really know. Perhaps it just means that GRRM would not create a character who's entirely inhuman, only one thing :).

Min,

I know what you mean about the black humor- and in some other books I would have found the "tag" that Theon played with the head at the execution funny. Why not here? I think it's because of the surrounding "atmosphere" (not the best term, I know, but I don't know what else to call it) that GRRM has created with the Starks. Everyone else, especially Bran and Jon, seem to think it's just a little disgusting, and that makes the reader see it in the same light.

Nicholas
User ID: 0247944 Sep 17th 11:06 AM
I think that Theon's thinking of Ned is his conscience kicking him in the ass for the things that he does. Thats why I think he is capable of redemption. I like his black humor. He doesn't have any deep feelings for anyone, execpt perhaps for Ned and those feelings have to carry a taste of bitterness for him. I say this because Ned is a really great guy to look up to for Theon, but he also took Theon away from the Iron Isles and his family, and in the process killed his brothers.

Telisiane Sep 18th 10:46 PM
Theon's not such a bad guy. He just has a big dose of pride and "little boy looking for love" syndrome. He was cared for but unloved by the Starks. He left his true family when he was only 10. Nicholas says that Theon does not have deep feelings for anyone; truth is, no one has deep feelings for him, either. So he grows up and tries desperately to do something that will win the approval of his father and screws up in the process.

He is absolutely capable of redemption. He just needs to let go of some of his pride and ambition and admit to himself that he craves approval and love and respect. The problem is, no one cares enough about him to give him a chance at redemption. The one friend who may have cared, Robb, no longer has any reason to trust him. I don't really WANT him to be redeemed anyway.

Of course, I tend to sympathize with all the "baddies". The only character in the story who I feel is NOT deserving of some empathy is Gregor.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Sep 20th 9:36 AM
Theon is scum and there is no hope for him at all.
None.

I haven't read all of the topic but I would say Joffery, Gregor, TBoB, Cersei and Littlefinger are beyond redemption. IMHO.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 20th 9:48 AM
Telisiane, I would imagine that the parents of the two little boys Theon murdered outside Winterfell -- you know, the one's whose bodies were mutilated and stuck on the ramparts -- would disagree with your assessment that "Theon's not such a bad guy." Well, they would disagree if he hadn't murdered them as well.

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Sep 20th 1:09 PM
Jeff -

True....Theon absolutely crossed the line with that action, regardless of any goading by the BOB. But on the other hand, those killings haunt him. His betrayal of Robb haunts him too. (I doubt Gregor feels remorse for anything that he has done.) His mantra has become "I was with Robb Stark in the Whispering Wood," which refers to the one GOOD thing he can remember that he did. Theon is way over his head, and at the end, I think he finally realized it.

Perhaps I should say that Theon WASN'T such a bad guy, until he crossed that line. But even now, I think that he's capable of being redeemed in the reader's eyes, even if he is ultimately punished for his actions in the end.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 20th 3:18 PM
Telisiane, I would agree that theon certainly crossed a line when he took Winterfell and engaged in his subsequent acts of brutality. Prior to that, I suppose he could have been "redeemed". I guess where we differ is that I don't see any "goodness" in his admiration for Ned or support for Robb. When he committed acts that were wrong, he didn't think "this is nasty". Instead, he thought "Ned wouldn't like this". It's the difference between a desire to do good and a desire for approval, which are completely different things.

I will agree, though, that there are signs that Theon _could_ have taken a different path. there was a part of him that wanted to be honorable. It was just outweighed by his desire for pwoer and recognition.

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Sep 20th 8:24 PM
Jeff -
But is Theon's screwed up value system really his fault? The first 10 years of his life, he grew up under the Ironmen, who are a brutal, and bloddthirsty people. The second 10 years, he was with the Starks, who certainly did not love him. His upbringing has been difficult, to say the least, and from his two different "fathers" he learned two different definitions of right and wrong

It's true that he could have chosen a different path. I suppose he could have defied his true father, but could you blame him for wanting his father's approval and what he perceived as his rightful place? Or he could have strictly obeyed his father's orders, and continued to ravage the coast. But if Theon had obeyed his blood father, would your opinion of him be different once he betrayed Robb? Certainly, he did not appear to be murdering children, but his Ironmen were raping and killing and kidnapping innocents.

I guess I am wondering, is the incident with the two children the point where, in your opinion, Theon crossed the line? Or had he already crossed the line with you by betraying Robb?

Watcher
User ID: 1704034 Sep 20th 11:13 PM
Theon crossed the line when he betrayed Robb by raiding the coast. Theon's screw up system is his own fault. He could've learned how to be a leader from two different view points. Instead he choose to think he should lead because it was his birth right. When he got back to the Iron Islands he didn't even try to learn the current political situation, he didn�t try to learn who was who. All he thought about was the glory he deserved and who to seduce. When his sister humiliated him all he could think about was revenge, not a thing about what he could do better. He probably couldn�t go against his father�s will but he didn�t try very hard to change his mind.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 21st 5:39 AM
Keri, as for the black humour - I did not really mean the kicking of the head. That was exactly as you described it: It could have been funny in another book, but we saw it though the eyes of Bran and Jon, and shared their disgust.

What I meant are other scenes, small ones, and especially the scene with Asha. I loved him (_and_ her) for that scene. I just enjoyed it.
And as for the girl on the ship: I didn't have any problem with the way Theon treated her. She was stupid and tried to cling to him like an ape to a tree. She deserved it.

Jeff... well, yes and no. Your argumentation certainly makes sense. But do we not all measure our value system by people we admire. In the first time, I mean. All we believe, our morals and values, come from people we love and admire: Parents, teachers, friends. We range ourselves in comparison to them, and jusge ourselves in comparison to them, especially when we're young. When we grow older, that, of cpourse, lessens, and we know right from wrong (_our_ right and _our_ wrong) ourselves. But the basics are laid during infancy and puberty.

Theon still judges his morals due to Ned. This is not bad, nor does it show that he has no moral standards (he would not have nightmares without any of those), it just shows that he is immature. This is not good, but no crime - he is a man in his mid-twwenties, and those always are immature...

***grinning, ducking and running from several thrown stones***
apologies to Kay and some others - I was kidding.

No, seriously. I still do think that the thoughts of Ned are, in their way, signs for moral standards Theon HAS.

Beaten, but not defeated.
:-)

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 21st 7:18 AM
Min;

The girl deserved it because she was stupid?
Pretty harsh, don't you think?

I guess there's something to Dogbert's list of what's still politically correct to make mock of - ugliness, stupidity and sexual preferences the public doesn't like. :o)

Rebecca
User ID: 0303694 Sep 21st 7:35 AM
Min, wasn't Theon 17 at the beginning of GoT? Putting him at about 19 by the end of CoK?

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 21st 8:24 AM
Min, you might obtain you're values from those sources, but those values generally are internalized and become one's own values. Last week, I saw a little boy riding his bike down the sidewalk in front of my house and he wiped out. I ran outside, picked him up, and took him and his bike to his house.

Now why did I do that? Well, my parents and others probably taught me to think of other people's feelings. But when I went to get that kid, I wasn't thinking about my parents, teachers, or anybody else. It just seemed to me to be the right thing to do as I'm sure it would for all of us on the Board. That's what seems to be missing with Theon. He _might_ think "gee, I wonder what Ned would do", but he wouldn't think "gee, that poor kid, let me see if I can help him."

I agree that the fact that he (occasionally) measures himself against Ned is not "bad". But I thought you were arguing that it was a sign of "goodness". And if you take it as a sign that Theon has moral standards, doesn't that make him even _worse_? He knows what is right, yet he consciously decides to do what is _not_ right and to do what's convenient for himself instead. His conduct would be easier to excuse if he had been raised by Balon Greyjoy. But, through GRRM, we know that Ned set a good example of a moral, noble man. It's Theon's conscious disregard of Ned's moral example that makes him so reprehensible. Theon has "seen the light" but has chosen to take another path.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 21st 9:27 AM
You are right in the very last point. Knowing what is right and then doing the wrong makes the wrong even worse. I agree.

I still disagree with your first paragraphs. Theon is just not at the stage where he internalized these moral standards as his own. Still, it would be a good beginning. A child would perhaps think about what his mother or father told him before reacting - but that does not mean that the child has no moral standards. Only that the child is yet developping them. Which is, imo, the case with Theon.

Which is no excuse. Rebecca, you are right, I just looked it up - he is even younger than I thought.

I never said Theon was a good guy. I think him immature, foolish, and mad. Twisted. Torn.
Just not evil.

That did, of course, not prevent him from doing evil things.
But it also does not put him beyond the hope of redemption.

I know I am strongheaded. Does it sonsole you that my boyfirend and I have the same discussions as we have, and that this man always takes over your role in those discussions? It must be good for you to know that, somewhere in my life, there is some good influence of the logical sort. Not that it helped much... ;-)))

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Sep 21st 10:03 AM
When I first read AGOT and was introduced to Theon, I didn't care for him much. I thought he'd be some small fry character that was placed in Winterfell to show the opposite of the rearing of the Stark children. Theon was always vain. He lorded it over the other children and only stepped back from a confrontation with either Robb, Ned, or (interestingly enough) Jon Snow. He was cowardly from the first sentence with his name on it. I saw him as a coward, and I see him as one now. Coward and bully. He didn't take any lessons from Ned's example. He was a hostage, not a ward. He didn't belong, but they couldn't send him away, either.

The part of the book that really got me was when Catelyn wanted to pack Robb off to Winterfell when she met him at Moat Caillin. She listed off several men who could be generals (Tallhart, Bolton, the Greatjon, and -Theon-) My respect for Catelyn really took a dip right at that point. She must have been walking around Winterfell with blinders on not to have noticed the true Theon. She was quick to listen to gossip about Ned and Ashara Dayne, but not hear a peep about Theon? Ugh.

Anywhoo, Theon has always been on the line between right and wrong, but has never been -caught- crossing it. He's done so now, and he can't get back. He's in waaaaay over his head and sinking fast.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 8th 10:36 AM As Jeff made up this topic and brilliantly described what it is about, I will quote him here: "One of the themes that seems to pop up in a lot of posts involves the concept of redemption. Related to that is the desire to look for motivations for what made a "bad" character bad, as in Sandor's burning, Tywin's loss of a beloved wife, Theon being treated poorly by his family, etc. A lot of us look to these people and incidents for the possibility that the character can be redeemed, that he or she really isn't such a "bad guy"."
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 8th 10:37 AM And Jeff's last post: ______________________ Jeff User ID: 0227464 Sep 7th 1:54 PM Min, I don't view Theon as a cynic. To me, a cynic recognizes the existence of various virtues and has become jaded because those virtues are never attained. I've never seen anything from Theon showing him to have a recognition or understanding of any virtues. Give me just _one_ example of Theon doing or even thinking about doing something out of idealism or a sense of goodness.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 8th 10:38 AM Gotcha. Theon thinks of Ned all the time. I don't have the books at hand, but I think I don't need to give pages and lines. He always thinks stuff like "What would Ned say to this", "Ned wouldn't like this" and some such. That was the basis on which I said that Theon loved and admired Ned. That is where his moral standards come from. These are the virtues that "never are attained". I will NOT use the example of Theon helping Bran against the wildling's assault - you could (and would) explain it as just something which served his purposes, and you would be right. Instead, I referr of his permanent thinking of Ned, of his wheighing his decisions to Ned's moral standards - though he never acts appropriately, I know. And you can see that he's a cynic by his humour. I think THAT'S the reason I always kinda liked him. I liked his black humour... :-)
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 8th 11:03 AM Doing something because Ned would approve or even just "thinking of Ned" is not the same as a desire to do something "good" or even a belief in things that are "good". Was Theon desperate for approval from a father figure? I think so. But that still cuts in favor of the point I've made. Any "good" actions he might have taken were because of his desire for fatherly approval, not because the acts were good in themselves. He does not thinks about whether the actions are right or wrong -- its whether they'll earn approval from Ned that matters to him. Had he been fostered by a nasty bastard like Tywin or even raised by his own father, I'm quite sure right and wrong still would have been irrelevant to him. Min, I take it from your response that you couldn't find a single act by Theon that was based upon idealism of any kind. Am I correct?
labor User ID: 8785553	Sep 8th 12:39 PM Agree with you, Jeff. What puts off me personally, is that Theon is uncapable of any deep feelings - we have seen from his POV and not even once does he display love or loyality. All of his being is centered on himself. That's why I judge him less favorably than Jaime or even Cersei - at least they are capable of strong love. Twisted, I know, but it is IMHO better than Theon's hollowness.
Keri Stevenson	Sep 17th 6:55 AM Labor, One thing about the point you're making (that struck me) is that Theon seemed to care so much about the Iron Islands while he was away from them, to want to see them rise again... but then he returned, and all he wants to see them do is accept him as king. He couldn't be happy that Asha had proven to be a strong heir with him away and his brothers dead, and so the Islands hadn't suffered. And I don't think it's because he has a dislike of women or sees them inferior; I think that's true, but in this case, his thinking is more along the lines of "I should have been king!" For someone who purportedly cares about the strength of his country, that makes him sound like a spoiled brat. At the same time, he may have a conscience of some kind. His constant thinking of Ned must indicate something, maybe not cynicism. Maybe just enough of the Starks' standards got inside him to make him uneasy about some of the things he wants to do. Then there are his nightmares... I don't really know. Perhaps it just means that GRRM would not create a character who's entirely inhuman, only one thing :). Min, I know what you mean about the black humor- and in some other books I would have found the "tag" that Theon played with the head at the execution funny. Why not here? I think it's because of the surrounding "atmosphere" (not the best term, I know, but I don't know what else to call it) that GRRM has created with the Starks. Everyone else, especially Bran and Jon, seem to think it's just a little disgusting, and that makes the reader see it in the same light.
Nicholas User ID: 0247944	Sep 17th 11:06 AM I think that Theon's thinking of Ned is his conscience kicking him in the ass for the things that he does. Thats why I think he is capable of redemption. I like his black humor. He doesn't have any deep feelings for anyone, execpt perhaps for Ned and those feelings have to carry a taste of bitterness for him. I say this because Ned is a really great guy to look up to for Theon, but he also took Theon away from the Iron Isles and his family, and in the process killed his brothers.
Telisiane	Sep 18th 10:46 PM Theon's not such a bad guy. He just has a big dose of pride and "little boy looking for love" syndrome. He was cared for but unloved by the Starks. He left his true family when he was only 10. Nicholas says that Theon does not have deep feelings for anyone; truth is, no one has deep feelings for him, either. So he grows up and tries desperately to do something that will win the approval of his father and screws up in the process. He is absolutely capable of redemption. He just needs to let go of some of his pride and ambition and admit to himself that he craves approval and love and respect. The problem is, no one cares enough about him to give him a chance at redemption. The one friend who may have cared, Robb, no longer has any reason to trust him. I don't really WANT him to be redeemed anyway. Of course, I tend to sympathize with all the "baddies". The only character in the story who I feel is NOT deserving of some empathy is Gregor.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Sep 20th 9:36 AM Theon is scum and there is no hope for him at all. None. I haven't read all of the topic but I would say Joffery, Gregor, TBoB, Cersei and Littlefinger are beyond redemption. IMHO.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 20th 9:48 AM Telisiane, I would imagine that the parents of the two little boys Theon murdered outside Winterfell -- you know, the one's whose bodies were mutilated and stuck on the ramparts -- would disagree with your assessment that "Theon's not such a bad guy." Well, they would disagree if he hadn't murdered them as well.
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Sep 20th 1:09 PM Jeff - True....Theon absolutely crossed the line with that action, regardless of any goading by the BOB. But on the other hand, those killings haunt him. His betrayal of Robb haunts him too. (I doubt Gregor feels remorse for anything that he has done.) His mantra has become "I was with Robb Stark in the Whispering Wood," which refers to the one GOOD thing he can remember that he did. Theon is way over his head, and at the end, I think he finally realized it. Perhaps I should say that Theon WASN'T such a bad guy, until he crossed that line. But even now, I think that he's capable of being redeemed in the reader's eyes, even if he is ultimately punished for his actions in the end.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 20th 3:18 PM Telisiane, I would agree that theon certainly crossed a line when he took Winterfell and engaged in his subsequent acts of brutality. Prior to that, I suppose he could have been "redeemed". I guess where we differ is that I don't see any "goodness" in his admiration for Ned or support for Robb. When he committed acts that were wrong, he didn't think "this is nasty". Instead, he thought "Ned wouldn't like this". It's the difference between a desire to do good and a desire for approval, which are completely different things. I will agree, though, that there are signs that Theon _could_ have taken a different path. there was a part of him that wanted to be honorable. It was just outweighed by his desire for pwoer and recognition.
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Sep 20th 8:24 PM Jeff - But is Theon's screwed up value system really his fault? The first 10 years of his life, he grew up under the Ironmen, who are a brutal, and bloddthirsty people. The second 10 years, he was with the Starks, who certainly did not love him. His upbringing has been difficult, to say the least, and from his two different "fathers" he learned two different definitions of right and wrong It's true that he could have chosen a different path. I suppose he could have defied his true father, but could you blame him for wanting his father's approval and what he perceived as his rightful place? Or he could have strictly obeyed his father's orders, and continued to ravage the coast. But if Theon had obeyed his blood father, would your opinion of him be different once he betrayed Robb? Certainly, he did not appear to be murdering children, but his Ironmen were raping and killing and kidnapping innocents. I guess I am wondering, is the incident with the two children the point where, in your opinion, Theon crossed the line? Or had he already crossed the line with you by betraying Robb?
Watcher User ID: 1704034	Sep 20th 11:13 PM Theon crossed the line when he betrayed Robb by raiding the coast. Theon's screw up system is his own fault. He could've learned how to be a leader from two different view points. Instead he choose to think he should lead because it was his birth right. When he got back to the Iron Islands he didn't even try to learn the current political situation, he didn�t try to learn who was who. All he thought about was the glory he deserved and who to seduce. When his sister humiliated him all he could think about was revenge, not a thing about what he could do better. He probably couldn�t go against his father�s will but he didn�t try very hard to change his mind.
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 21st 5:39 AM Keri, as for the black humour - I did not really mean the kicking of the head. That was exactly as you described it: It could have been funny in another book, but we saw it though the eyes of Bran and Jon, and shared their disgust. What I meant are other scenes, small ones, and especially the scene with Asha. I loved him (_and_ her) for that scene. I just enjoyed it. And as for the girl on the ship: I didn't have any problem with the way Theon treated her. She was stupid and tried to cling to him like an ape to a tree. She deserved it. Jeff... well, yes and no. Your argumentation certainly makes sense. But do we not all measure our value system by people we admire. In the first time, I mean. All we believe, our morals and values, come from people we love and admire: Parents, teachers, friends. We range ourselves in comparison to them, and jusge ourselves in comparison to them, especially when we're young. When we grow older, that, of cpourse, lessens, and we know right from wrong (_our_ right and _our_ wrong) ourselves. But the basics are laid during infancy and puberty. Theon still judges his morals due to Ned. This is not bad, nor does it show that he has no moral standards (he would not have nightmares without any of those), it just shows that he is immature. This is not good, but no crime - he is a man in his mid-twwenties, and those always are immature... *grinning, ducking and running from several thrown stones* apologies to Kay and some others - I was kidding. No, seriously. I still do think that the thoughts of Ned are, in their way, signs for moral standards Theon HAS. Beaten, but not defeated. :-)
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 21st 7:18 AM Min; The girl deserved it because she was stupid? Pretty harsh, don't you think? I guess there's something to Dogbert's list of what's still politically correct to make mock of - ugliness, stupidity and sexual preferences the public doesn't like. :o)
Rebecca User ID: 0303694	Sep 21st 7:35 AM Min, wasn't Theon 17 at the beginning of GoT? Putting him at about 19 by the end of CoK?
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 21st 8:24 AM Min, you might obtain you're values from those sources, but those values generally are internalized and become one's own values. Last week, I saw a little boy riding his bike down the sidewalk in front of my house and he wiped out. I ran outside, picked him up, and took him and his bike to his house. Now why did I do that? Well, my parents and others probably taught me to think of other people's feelings. But when I went to get that kid, I wasn't thinking about my parents, teachers, or anybody else. It just seemed to me to be the right thing to do as I'm sure it would for all of us on the Board. That's what seems to be missing with Theon. He _might_ think "gee, I wonder what Ned would do", but he wouldn't think "gee, that poor kid, let me see if I can help him." I agree that the fact that he (occasionally) measures himself against Ned is not "bad". But I thought you were arguing that it was a sign of "goodness". And if you take it as a sign that Theon has moral standards, doesn't that make him even _worse_? He knows what is right, yet he consciously decides to do what is _not_ right and to do what's convenient for himself instead. His conduct would be easier to excuse if he had been raised by Balon Greyjoy. But, through GRRM, we know that Ned set a good example of a moral, noble man. It's Theon's conscious disregard of Ned's moral example that makes him so reprehensible. Theon has "seen the light" but has chosen to take another path.
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 21st 9:27 AM You are right in the very last point. Knowing what is right and then doing the wrong makes the wrong even worse. I agree. I still disagree with your first paragraphs. Theon is just not at the stage where he internalized these moral standards as his own. Still, it would be a good beginning. A child would perhaps think about what his mother or father told him before reacting - but that does not mean that the child has no moral standards. Only that the child is yet developping them. Which is, imo, the case with Theon. Which is no excuse. Rebecca, you are right, I just looked it up - he is even younger than I thought. I never said Theon was a good guy. I think him immature, foolish, and mad. Twisted. Torn. Just not evil. That did, of course, not prevent him from doing evil things. But it also does not put him beyond the hope of redemption. I know I am strongheaded. Does it sonsole you that my boyfirend and I have the same discussions as we have, and that this man always takes over your role in those discussions? It must be good for you to know that, somewhere in my life, there is some good influence of the logical sort. Not that it helped much... ;-)))
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Sep 21st 10:03 AM When I first read AGOT and was introduced to Theon, I didn't care for him much. I thought he'd be some small fry character that was placed in Winterfell to show the opposite of the rearing of the Stark children. Theon was always vain. He lorded it over the other children and only stepped back from a confrontation with either Robb, Ned, or (interestingly enough) Jon Snow. He was cowardly from the first sentence with his name on it. I saw him as a coward, and I see him as one now. Coward and bully. He didn't take any lessons from Ned's example. He was a hostage, not a ward. He didn't belong, but they couldn't send him away, either. The part of the book that really got me was when Catelyn wanted to pack Robb off to Winterfell when she met him at Moat Caillin. She listed off several men who could be generals (Tallhart, Bolton, the Greatjon, and -Theon-) My respect for Catelyn really took a dip right at that point. She must have been walking around Winterfell with blinders on not to have noticed the true Theon. She was quick to listen to gossip about Ned and Ashara Dayne, but not hear a peep about Theon? Ugh. Anywhoo, Theon has always been on the line between right and wrong, but has never been -caught- crossing it. He's done so now, and he can't get back. He's in waaaaay over his head and sinking fast.