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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Different Countries

Next 20 Messages

Omer
User ID: 1523284 Sep 15th 7:16 AM
I wondered about people from different places around here, and amound Speculated Fiction generally.

It seems to me that sweeden has a lot of spec-fi readers - or at least a lot of Net activity.

We've had a reader or two from Germany, too... and I've seen quite a few Sci-Fi and Fantasy books whenever I'm there.

As an Israei, there isn't too much of a supply. We get some stuff fantasy translated( Song of Ice and Fire, The Dark Tower(recently), Wheel of Time), and a little more science fiction( Asimov, Heinelin, Clarke and Herbert, of course, as well as Ender's Game, the Mars trilogy, etc). But still there hasn't been enough, and I've found out I've been reading much more the last year or so, when mty english has reached a level that it's comfortable for me to read books in the original.

haaruk Sep 18th 7:13 AM
Greetings Omer. I am from the U.S.A. Sci-fi and Fantasy do not constitute the bulk of my reading experience. I try to choose carefully. I do enjoy the genres in controlled doses. I have often enjoyed Martin's writing.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Sep 20th 9:21 AM
I'm from Canada and other than G.R.R.M the only other fantasy writer I have read is Tolkein. Well, Stephen King, I read his work too. Mostly I try to find good novels. I really don't care what they are. Long live the NORTH.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 21st 5:48 AM
Snake, I agree about the north: The most beautiful countries I ever went to were Canada and the Scandinavian countries. :-)

There is a lot of Fantasy and Speculated Fiction in Germany. It is different than the USA and Canada, though. These genres are considered low and trivial here, which means that, especially in the Fantasy genre, the editors screw some really good books.

The translations are terrible, the cover art always reminds me od Conan the Barbarian, and most good and thick english Fantasy books are published each in two or three tomes. Robert Jordan's seven books (not that this is especially good, but as an example) contains 21 books here, and the translation is beyond acceptance. The SOIF books' translation is better, but each book is divided in two, and the cover art is horrible.

Most Fantasy books in Germany have the appearance and cover of soem "Dungeons and Dragons" series-bullshit (sorry). German editors seem to think that german fantasy readers cannot consume more than 200 pages at a time.

It annoys me no end. Good authors like George Martin get lost in between all this.

A nice exception,. for all those who are interested (omer?) is the translation of Robin Hobb's Farseers. The translation is mediocre, but there are three books, not more, and they took the original american cover, which is ok.

See why I always read fantasy in English?

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Sep 23rd 9:16 AM
Min - how do u know if a translation is good if you don't read the books?

yeah, in Israel they cut Jorden's book into halves as well, so we've got 16 books so far.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 23rd 12:13 PM
they cut them into three here. They cut GRRM into halfs...

Omer, I spend quite some times in bookstores. If I see a new translation, I take the book and sketch through it. When I read it in English, I know which parts would be significant for a good translation. Like, in Robin Hobb's Farseers, the parts with the fool. In George Martin, I checked for Tyrion's parts, and for some parts I just found brilliantly written, and see how they're like. There are other indicators: How are the names translated (The german translation of ASoIaF did not translate the names at all... which is cowardice, but sometimes better than the _horrible_ translation of names you find, eg, in WoT). Did that answer your question?

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Sep 23rd 12:41 PM
Min, yeah how do you say Dragon in German?

Probably Dragon, but what the hell:-)
In hebrew too. sometimes I like it. for Example, they translated King's Landing to something like 'King's Coming Place' - very bad translation on my part now :-), but they left Dragonstone. I don't remember what they did with Highgarden, coz I only have the first book in hebrew, and that one didn't have that much of High Garden in it, now did it?

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 23rd 10:16 PM
Dragon = Drache (with that famous "ch" in it which drives all English-speaking folk crazy, but should not be difficult for you, omer :-)).

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 24th 5:06 AM
they did not translate the english names at all. Which avoids stupidities like in WoT, where they translated all the names and made up some really silly things, translating names for the Dark One, for example, word-by-word, not even searching for a name to transport its _meaning_ and sound good at the same time.

The disadvantage of not translating them is that the subtle meanings of people's and place's name will never show to someone who does not know the language. Highgarden, Casterly Rock, Dragonstone ... Greyjoy! The reader will be missing something.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 24th 8:06 AM
In Norway, they actually translated "Tear" from WoT!

That is, 'tear' as in 'rip and tear'. That must be the hallmark of stupid translations...

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 24th 8:15 AM
You mean the Stone of Tear? O heavens. :-) Well, as you Norwegians not even translate movies... but it has all its advantages. I think the non-translated movies are the reason why all the Scandinavians I know speak such a perfect English. Not that I know so many of them, but still.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 24th 8:28 AM
Well, I've always thought most dubbed films sounds/looks extremely stupid - even those dubbed to German, where dubbing has been taken to an art form.
So I'm thankful we don't get too much of that...

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Sep 24th 12:33 PM
Oh yeah. OH yeah! you should see the X-Files in german - at least in the one episode I've seen, Scully shouted at Mulder in a very low ton "MULDER COMER HEEERRREEEE"
OK, I'm exagurating, but you know what I mean

Kristin
User ID: 1613614 Sep 24th 3:59 PM
I wouldn't say that SF and fantasy is considered low and trivial only in Germany, Min. Certainly, those genres are accepted in the US, and the books are widely available for purchase. However, many people still consider any book with a spaceship or a castle on the cover to be very low and trivial indeed.

At one time, my bookstore had a Southwestern Literature book discussion group, in addition to my SF/fan one and a couple others. One day, in our break room, the leader of the SW Lit group said rather amusedly, "What do you talk about in your book group? I can't think of anything a science fiction book group could talk about." Whoops. I asked her what her book group talked about; she said "Plot, theme, character..things like that." I told her that those were exactly the things that we talked about, and then I just kept talking for a few minutes on why, exactly, I consider SF and fantasy worthwhile reading. I don't think she was expecting a response quite like that, but I had fun.

This happens a lot, probably because many of my coworkers enjoy classic novels and are very skeptical of SF; earlier this week, someone who had just found out about my book group said "You don't look like someone who reads science fiction."

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Sep 24th 6:24 PM
I am of the opinion that sci fi/fantasy has evolved tremendously in recent years, particularly the fantasy genre. It has become more mature, more adult, more intelligent. At one time, I was a little embarrassed to admit that I read fantasy. Not any more.

I believe some of the best writing today contains elements of fantasy, and some of the best writers are fantasy writers. Martin is one, Kay is another, and there are several more who write good, intelligent, mature fantasy novels.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 25th 11:13 AM
We all are of that opinion, or we would not be here. And I think I can say that this board has a whole bunch of mature, intelligent and eloquent people posting - that tells something about fantasy, at least about _some_ fantasy, does it not?

I belive every word you say, Kristin, but at least in America, the publisher seem to have understood that there are some good fantasy writers and some intelligent fantasy readers. We are not that far here in Germany yet. Fantasy books have to be short (hence the tearing apart of books like Martin's), cheap, and not challenging.

I do not understand why they cannot _sse_ that there is good and trivial fantasy writing as well as there is good and trivial "normal" literature...

labor
User ID: 8479113 Sep 25th 11:48 AM

Min, I believe that it is because SF and Fantasy evolved primarily in English-speaking countries and thus were always regarded as somewhat foreign to the German-speaking ones. For some mysterious reason, no one seemed to pick up the torch here after E.T.A Hoffmann, until the boom came from UK and US. Kafka and Hesse can't really count here, because they are more allegoric than anything else. So that's it. Historical novel didn't manage to become quite respectable in the last 200 years "hierzulande" either, IMHO also because it originally came from outside.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 26th 5:09 AM
labor, I think you are right. It has been Tolkien who really put it off. That could have happened to E.T.A Hoffmann, too, but perhaps the time just wasn't right.

Kafka and Hesse clearly were no Fantasy, I agree. And then, Kafka never would have reached so many people for the cryptic way of writing he has, though I definitely love him.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 26th 11:18 AM
Did anybody who read Kafka's 'The Process' (or whatever the english title is) get the feeling that it was unfinished?

It's been a while since I read it, but IIRC, it flowed on nice and slowly, while the last third of the book seemed quite incongruous with the first two thirds.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 26th 12:59 PM
The impression is right, I had the same. But as Kafka wrote many, many letters (that man wrote more than seven letters a day usually, and all of them long... can you believe that?) and diary, we know that he meant it that way. I mean, he wrote down that he finished it, so I guess that's the way he wanted it to be.

Next 20 Messages

Omer User ID: 1523284	Sep 15th 7:16 AM I wondered about people from different places around here, and amound Speculated Fiction generally. It seems to me that sweeden has a lot of spec-fi readers - or at least a lot of Net activity. We've had a reader or two from Germany, too... and I've seen quite a few Sci-Fi and Fantasy books whenever I'm there. As an Israei, there isn't too much of a supply. We get some stuff fantasy translated( Song of Ice and Fire, The Dark Tower(recently), Wheel of Time), and a little more science fiction( Asimov, Heinelin, Clarke and Herbert, of course, as well as Ender's Game, the Mars trilogy, etc). But still there hasn't been enough, and I've found out I've been reading much more the last year or so, when mty english has reached a level that it's comfortable for me to read books in the original.
haaruk	Sep 18th 7:13 AM Greetings Omer. I am from the U.S.A. Sci-fi and Fantasy do not constitute the bulk of my reading experience. I try to choose carefully. I do enjoy the genres in controlled doses. I have often enjoyed Martin's writing.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Sep 20th 9:21 AM I'm from Canada and other than G.R.R.M the only other fantasy writer I have read is Tolkein. Well, Stephen King, I read his work too. Mostly I try to find good novels. I really don't care what they are. Long live the NORTH.
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 21st 5:48 AM Snake, I agree about the north: The most beautiful countries I ever went to were Canada and the Scandinavian countries. :-) There is a lot of Fantasy and Speculated Fiction in Germany. It is different than the USA and Canada, though. These genres are considered low and trivial here, which means that, especially in the Fantasy genre, the editors screw some really good books. The translations are terrible, the cover art always reminds me od Conan the Barbarian, and most good and thick english Fantasy books are published each in two or three tomes. Robert Jordan's seven books (not that this is especially good, but as an example) contains 21 books here, and the translation is beyond acceptance. The SOIF books' translation is better, but each book is divided in two, and the cover art is horrible. Most Fantasy books in Germany have the appearance and cover of soem "Dungeons and Dragons" series-bullshit (sorry). German editors seem to think that german fantasy readers cannot consume more than 200 pages at a time. It annoys me no end. Good authors like George Martin get lost in between all this. A nice exception,. for all those who are interested (omer?) is the translation of Robin Hobb's Farseers. The translation is mediocre, but there are three books, not more, and they took the original american cover, which is ok. See why I always read fantasy in English?
Omer User ID: 0485244	Sep 23rd 9:16 AM Min - how do u know if a translation is good if you don't read the books? yeah, in Israel they cut Jorden's book into halves as well, so we've got 16 books so far.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 23rd 12:13 PM they cut them into three here. They cut GRRM into halfs... Omer, I spend quite some times in bookstores. If I see a new translation, I take the book and sketch through it. When I read it in English, I know which parts would be significant for a good translation. Like, in Robin Hobb's Farseers, the parts with the fool. In George Martin, I checked for Tyrion's parts, and for some parts I just found brilliantly written, and see how they're like. There are other indicators: How are the names translated (The german translation of ASoIaF did not translate the names at all... which is cowardice, but sometimes better than the _horrible_ translation of names you find, eg, in WoT). Did that answer your question?
Omer User ID: 0485244	Sep 23rd 12:41 PM Min, yeah how do you say Dragon in German? Probably Dragon, but what the hell:-) In hebrew too. sometimes I like it. for Example, they translated King's Landing to something like 'King's Coming Place' - very bad translation on my part now :-), but they left Dragonstone. I don't remember what they did with Highgarden, coz I only have the first book in hebrew, and that one didn't have that much of High Garden in it, now did it?
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 23rd 10:16 PM Dragon = Drache (with that famous "ch" in it which drives all English-speaking folk crazy, but should not be difficult for you, omer :-)).
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 24th 5:06 AM they did not translate the english names at all. Which avoids stupidities like in WoT, where they translated all the names and made up some really silly things, translating names for the Dark One, for example, word-by-word, not even searching for a name to transport its _meaning_ and sound good at the same time. The disadvantage of not translating them is that the subtle meanings of people's and place's name will never show to someone who does not know the language. Highgarden, Casterly Rock, Dragonstone ... Greyjoy! The reader will be missing something.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 24th 8:06 AM In Norway, they actually translated "Tear" from WoT! That is, 'tear' as in 'rip and tear'. That must be the hallmark of stupid translations...
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 24th 8:15 AM You mean the Stone of Tear? O heavens. :-) Well, as you Norwegians not even translate movies... but it has all its advantages. I think the non-translated movies are the reason why all the Scandinavians I know speak such a perfect English. Not that I know so many of them, but still.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 24th 8:28 AM Well, I've always thought most dubbed films sounds/looks extremely stupid - even those dubbed to German, where dubbing has been taken to an art form. So I'm thankful we don't get too much of that...
Omer User ID: 0485244	Sep 24th 12:33 PM Oh yeah. OH yeah! you should see the X-Files in german - at least in the one episode I've seen, Scully shouted at Mulder in a very low ton "MULDER COMER HEEERRREEEE" OK, I'm exagurating, but you know what I mean
Kristin User ID: 1613614	Sep 24th 3:59 PM I wouldn't say that SF and fantasy is considered low and trivial only in Germany, Min. Certainly, those genres are accepted in the US, and the books are widely available for purchase. However, many people still consider any book with a spaceship or a castle on the cover to be very low and trivial indeed. At one time, my bookstore had a Southwestern Literature book discussion group, in addition to my SF/fan one and a couple others. One day, in our break room, the leader of the SW Lit group said rather amusedly, "What do you talk about in your book group? I can't think of anything a science fiction book group could talk about." Whoops. I asked her what her book group talked about; she said "Plot, theme, character..things like that." I told her that those were exactly the things that we talked about, and then I just kept talking for a few minutes on why, exactly, I consider SF and fantasy worthwhile reading. I don't think she was expecting a response quite like that, but I had fun. This happens a lot, probably because many of my coworkers enjoy classic novels and are very skeptical of SF; earlier this week, someone who had just found out about my book group said "You don't look like someone who reads science fiction."
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Sep 24th 6:24 PM I am of the opinion that sci fi/fantasy has evolved tremendously in recent years, particularly the fantasy genre. It has become more mature, more adult, more intelligent. At one time, I was a little embarrassed to admit that I read fantasy. Not any more. I believe some of the best writing today contains elements of fantasy, and some of the best writers are fantasy writers. Martin is one, Kay is another, and there are several more who write good, intelligent, mature fantasy novels.
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 25th 11:13 AM We all are of that opinion, or we would not be here. And I think I can say that this board has a whole bunch of mature, intelligent and eloquent people posting - that tells something about fantasy, at least about _some_ fantasy, does it not? I belive every word you say, Kristin, but at least in America, the publisher seem to have understood that there are some good fantasy writers and some intelligent fantasy readers. We are not that far here in Germany yet. Fantasy books have to be short (hence the tearing apart of books like Martin's), cheap, and not challenging. I do not understand why they cannot _sse_ that there is good and trivial fantasy writing as well as there is good and trivial "normal" literature...
labor User ID: 8479113	Sep 25th 11:48 AM Min, I believe that it is because SF and Fantasy evolved primarily in English-speaking countries and thus were always regarded as somewhat foreign to the German-speaking ones. For some mysterious reason, no one seemed to pick up the torch here after E.T.A Hoffmann, until the boom came from UK and US. Kafka and Hesse can't really count here, because they are more allegoric than anything else. So that's it. Historical novel didn't manage to become quite respectable in the last 200 years "hierzulande" either, IMHO also because it originally came from outside.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 26th 5:09 AM labor, I think you are right. It has been Tolkien who really put it off. That could have happened to E.T.A Hoffmann, too, but perhaps the time just wasn't right. Kafka and Hesse clearly were no Fantasy, I agree. And then, Kafka never would have reached so many people for the cryptic way of writing he has, though I definitely love him.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 26th 11:18 AM Did anybody who read Kafka's 'The Process' (or whatever the english title is) get the feeling that it was unfinished? It's been a while since I read it, but IIRC, it flowed on nice and slowly, while the last third of the book seemed quite incongruous with the first two thirds.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 26th 12:59 PM The impression is right, I had the same. But as Kafka wrote many, many letters (that man wrote more than seven letters a day usually, and all of them long... can you believe that?) and diary, we know that he meant it that way. I mean, he wrote down that he finished it, so I guess that's the way he wanted it to be.