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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Harrenhall

Next 20 Messages

Kevin
User ID: 1766884 Oct 14th 4:36 PM
Any thoughts on this mysterious castle? It had only been conquered by dragons in the past and now it seems to change hands on a weekly basis. It seems to bring great prestege and great doom to who ever holds it. It is the strategic centerpiece for the south yet whatever army occupies it seems to be paralized. Will we see more of it in the future? Will the ghosts return now that magic is back in the world?

Kristin
User ID: 9767833 Oct 14th 6:12 PM
And will GRRM ever write a prequel story about what happened at Harrenhal during the tourney where Lyanna Stark was crowned queen of love and beauty? And whatever happened to Lady Whent--wasn't she the last occupant of Harrenhal?

I need to go back to the books to read some more about Harrenhal, I think.

Maeglin
User ID: 9259363 Oct 15th 2:46 AM
I would like to know why one of the least important Lords/Ladys in the book held the largest castle in the entire country didn't it say somewhere that Lady Whent only used two of Harrenhal's five towers and then only the lower third of those. That is less than 15% of the whole castle wouldn't the castle have been better used as the seat of power for the Tullys or a more powerful bannerman who could fill more of the castle?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 15th 4:27 AM
Harrenhal has been granted to a succession of lords. No one was really powerful or rich enough to use the whole thing (save maybe the Lannisters.) Each tower is practically as big as a castle.

Riverrun is absolutely tiny next to it. In fact, Riverrun is probably the smallest castle of a Great House, next to the Eyrie.

I imagine the Whents may have hit some hard times when they got it (further encouraging belief in it being haunted) and so probably didn't use it as much as others. But once it's given over to somebody, I don't think the Tullys or anyone else can lay claim to it.

Of course, Harrenhal has very little strategic importance in a united Seven Kingdoms. That's another factor.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 15th 7:21 AM
Could it not be that the Tullys are loath to give Harrenhal to a powerful Riverland house (for instance, the Freys), because it might make them _too_ powerful?

Granted, even a powerful lesser house would hesitate making trouble in the Riverlands as long as times were peaceful, and the Tullys are in the good books of whoever sits the crown, but that might change during wars.

Who knows what Walder Frey would have been up to, had he (or some branch of his house) sat on Harrenhal as well as the Twins, at the beginning of the war.
Safer to give it to some small house, which would be more greatful for such a boon, and less likely to scheme against Riverrun.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 15th 7:42 AM
I believe that, at least in one instance, it was the Targaryens who gave Harrenhal over to a lord. That'd be the initial Lord, Qoherys. It may be that, while Harrenhal officially falls under the jurisdiction of the Tullys, it has since been the traditional role of the royal house to choose who holds it.

This then means that, at least technically, Joff and his small council were entirely within their rights -- as defined by traditional usage -- to remove House Whent's hold on Harrenhal and give it over to Janos Slynt.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Oct 20th 11:53 AM
Harrenhal is a cursed place and will grant ill to whomever should settle there. Thank the gods that Littlefinger now has it.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 20th 12:07 PM
Harrenhal will make Littlefinger a fortune.

He'll start selling tickets to _see_ the ghosts of Harrenhal and make a mint.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Oct 20th 12:22 PM
He'll burn there like Harren the Black before him.

labor
User ID: 1891784 Oct 20th 12:35 PM

I think that Littlefinger intends to settle in Riverrun. Watch and see. Harrenhal, OTOH, has quite rich lands, so it is going to make Littlefinger a fortune anyway,if only he finds the peasants to work for him.

Joomkar Oct 21st 2:19 AM
We can only hope Snake

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 22nd 6:46 AM
labor;

Considering Littlefinger's hand is stuck into the Royal Pockets, finding peasants will be a piece of cake.
Just offer peasants from all over the Kingdom free land and some silver to obtain the proper farming capital, and they'll come like flies to a honey jar.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 22nd 7:21 AM
there's the man speaking who _has_ to know. :-)

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 22nd 8:14 AM
Well, if I were Littlefinger, that's what I would do, at least.

I think it is the proper MO for lords wanting to boost their agricultural production (and hence their coffers) - I believe it was mentioned in aCoK that one of the smaller River Lords went over to the Lannisters after Gregor had massacred all his peasants.
He wanted new peasants, and the easiest way to get that, would be giving them the land left by massacred peasants, as well as a little 'starting fee'.

After all, in places not touced by war, there would be a lot of families with many surplus members - their work productivity is too small to make up for their eating, or at least just marginally better. Working new land, they would be much better off themselves, and spare their families the burden of feeding them.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 22nd 8:20 AM
and what about Harrenhal? Do you think the peasants will be as ready to cultivate the lands as they would be for any other piece of land? Harrenhal is doomed, some say? Will that keep the peasants away, or will the longing for a piece of land be stronger?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 22nd 8:38 AM
If anyone cares (not bloody likely :P), this is based on the assumption that if the labor/capital ratio increases, the marginal productivity of labor decreases.

In lay-man terms - consider a young couple just married. They're pursuing the career of farming, and has a small patch of land. They have only the absolute minimum of farm equipment necessary.

Suppose then, that they harvest enough to get around, and can procure some _additional capital_.
This additional capital helps boost their own labor productivity. For instance, if they can buy a horse/ox to pull the plow, the man in the family doesn't have to tie his wife to the plow, and whip her into plowing the field. She can then instead do more work in the house, while the plowing goes much faster, which in turn leaves time for the husband to ponder new ways in which to make his lazy wife work harder. Etc.

Now, as time goes by, the husband will make his wife pregnant. This is good for the husband, because now he can make his children work too. On the other hand, their _labor productivity_ (even when they have reached their full growth) will decrease, unless the farmer can obtain more capital - in this case foremostly more land, I guess.

That is because the most effective implementation of the existing capital will already have been employed. Any further implementation of the capital by the extra labor, will thus be less effective/productive.

I.e. if one man is using a plow, chances are that he is using it the proper way already. His son will not be able to use it in a more effective way - and he will not be able to use it when his father is using it.
Hence, the labor productivity decreases. Now, suppose that the family procures _another_ plow, though...that would make him able to increase the son's productivity.

But to take it back to labor's farmers...in peace times, the population increases, but farmable land does not. Hence, all the families would look for opportunities to get rid of the surplus labor, which might only have a marginal net production, and maybe not even that. I think Littlefinger would have very little trouble with finding interested young men and women in, say, the Reach or the Storm Lands or the Vale of Arryn.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 22nd 8:41 AM
As for Harrenhal...the 'curse' is for whatever noble house that holds the castle itself, not for the lands surrounding it.
Most farmers from far away probably has not even heard about it, and will not until they have settled down, when it is too late to go back.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 22nd 9:51 AM
I can hear the economy student speaking. :-) Clever boy. I buy it.

You are right. I guess, though, that the folk who may attach themselves to Harrenhal might be a different sort. The "curse" will not keep the peasants away, not when they're searching for a better life. But I think it might be the harsher folk who will follow the call - if a call will be raised.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 22nd 11:06 AM
A small correction to my second last post - in those sentences where I said that labor productivity decreases, I meant _marginal_ labor productivity - that is, the last labor unit (the last child born) employed will make for less additional labor productivity than the second last unit of labor employed.

The overall productivity will always increase with more labor input, but without additional capital, the last labor units will be increasingly less effective. In some cases their productivity will not even offset the cost of employing them (i.e. feeding them) - especially when the labor in question is a new-born baby. (although this could, I guess, be seen as investment in capacity :o) )

Min;

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'harsher', but I suppose those families with most mouths to support would be the most eager to send away those surplus mouths, so they would go first.

Blackstone
User ID: 9816503 Apr 11th 10:01 PM
I think that Harrenhall has not been claimed by a truly powerful house is that it is a strategic liability.

Its size makes it dangerous to hold. It is so big, it requires a whole army to hold, but then you have to feed that army for the length of the seige. Smaller forstresses like Riverrun are better in this regard because a smaller force can hold it, but yet it is large enough to house formidable anti-seige machines like scorpions, etc.

Next 20 Messages

Kevin User ID: 1766884	Oct 14th 4:36 PM Any thoughts on this mysterious castle? It had only been conquered by dragons in the past and now it seems to change hands on a weekly basis. It seems to bring great prestege and great doom to who ever holds it. It is the strategic centerpiece for the south yet whatever army occupies it seems to be paralized. Will we see more of it in the future? Will the ghosts return now that magic is back in the world?
Kristin User ID: 9767833	Oct 14th 6:12 PM And will GRRM ever write a prequel story about what happened at Harrenhal during the tourney where Lyanna Stark was crowned queen of love and beauty? And whatever happened to Lady Whent--wasn't she the last occupant of Harrenhal? I need to go back to the books to read some more about Harrenhal, I think.
Maeglin User ID: 9259363	Oct 15th 2:46 AM I would like to know why one of the least important Lords/Ladys in the book held the largest castle in the entire country didn't it say somewhere that Lady Whent only used two of Harrenhal's five towers and then only the lower third of those. That is less than 15% of the whole castle wouldn't the castle have been better used as the seat of power for the Tullys or a more powerful bannerman who could fill more of the castle?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 15th 4:27 AM Harrenhal has been granted to a succession of lords. No one was really powerful or rich enough to use the whole thing (save maybe the Lannisters.) Each tower is practically as big as a castle. Riverrun is absolutely tiny next to it. In fact, Riverrun is probably the smallest castle of a Great House, next to the Eyrie. I imagine the Whents may have hit some hard times when they got it (further encouraging belief in it being haunted) and so probably didn't use it as much as others. But once it's given over to somebody, I don't think the Tullys or anyone else can lay claim to it. Of course, Harrenhal has very little strategic importance in a united Seven Kingdoms. That's another factor.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 15th 7:21 AM Could it not be that the Tullys are loath to give Harrenhal to a powerful Riverland house (for instance, the Freys), because it might make them _too_ powerful? Granted, even a powerful lesser house would hesitate making trouble in the Riverlands as long as times were peaceful, and the Tullys are in the good books of whoever sits the crown, but that might change during wars. Who knows what Walder Frey would have been up to, had he (or some branch of his house) sat on Harrenhal as well as the Twins, at the beginning of the war. Safer to give it to some small house, which would be more greatful for such a boon, and less likely to scheme against Riverrun.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 15th 7:42 AM I believe that, at least in one instance, it was the Targaryens who gave Harrenhal over to a lord. That'd be the initial Lord, Qoherys. It may be that, while Harrenhal officially falls under the jurisdiction of the Tullys, it has since been the traditional role of the royal house to choose who holds it. This then means that, at least technically, Joff and his small council were entirely within their rights -- as defined by traditional usage -- to remove House Whent's hold on Harrenhal and give it over to Janos Slynt.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Oct 20th 11:53 AM Harrenhal is a cursed place and will grant ill to whomever should settle there. Thank the gods that Littlefinger now has it.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 20th 12:07 PM Harrenhal will make Littlefinger a fortune. He'll start selling tickets to _see_ the ghosts of Harrenhal and make a mint.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Oct 20th 12:22 PM He'll burn there like Harren the Black before him.
labor User ID: 1891784	Oct 20th 12:35 PM I think that Littlefinger intends to settle in Riverrun. Watch and see. Harrenhal, OTOH, has quite rich lands, so it is going to make Littlefinger a fortune anyway,if only he finds the peasants to work for him.
Joomkar	Oct 21st 2:19 AM We can only hope Snake
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 22nd 6:46 AM labor; Considering Littlefinger's hand is stuck into the Royal Pockets, finding peasants will be a piece of cake. Just offer peasants from all over the Kingdom free land and some silver to obtain the proper farming capital, and they'll come like flies to a honey jar.
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 22nd 7:21 AM there's the man speaking who _has_ to know. :-)
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 22nd 8:14 AM Well, if I were Littlefinger, that's what I would do, at least. I think it is the proper MO for lords wanting to boost their agricultural production (and hence their coffers) - I believe it was mentioned in aCoK that one of the smaller River Lords went over to the Lannisters after Gregor had massacred all his peasants. He wanted new peasants, and the easiest way to get that, would be giving them the land left by massacred peasants, as well as a little 'starting fee'. After all, in places not touced by war, there would be a lot of families with many surplus members - their work productivity is too small to make up for their eating, or at least just marginally better. Working new land, they would be much better off themselves, and spare their families the burden of feeding them.
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 22nd 8:20 AM and what about Harrenhal? Do you think the peasants will be as ready to cultivate the lands as they would be for any other piece of land? Harrenhal is doomed, some say? Will that keep the peasants away, or will the longing for a piece of land be stronger?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 22nd 8:38 AM If anyone cares (not bloody likely :P), this is based on the assumption that if the labor/capital ratio increases, the marginal productivity of labor decreases. In lay-man terms - consider a young couple just married. They're pursuing the career of farming, and has a small patch of land. They have only the absolute minimum of farm equipment necessary. Suppose then, that they harvest enough to get around, and can procure some _additional capital_. This additional capital helps boost their own labor productivity. For instance, if they can buy a horse/ox to pull the plow, the man in the family doesn't have to tie his wife to the plow, and whip her into plowing the field. She can then instead do more work in the house, while the plowing goes much faster, which in turn leaves time for the husband to ponder new ways in which to make his lazy wife work harder. Etc. Now, as time goes by, the husband will make his wife pregnant. This is good for the husband, because now he can make his children work too. On the other hand, their _labor productivity_ (even when they have reached their full growth) will decrease, unless the farmer can obtain more capital - in this case foremostly more land, I guess. That is because the most effective implementation of the existing capital will already have been employed. Any further implementation of the capital by the extra labor, will thus be less effective/productive. I.e. if one man is using a plow, chances are that he is using it the proper way already. His son will not be able to use it in a more effective way - and he will not be able to use it when his father is using it. Hence, the labor productivity decreases. Now, suppose that the family procures _another_ plow, though...that would make him able to increase the son's productivity. But to take it back to labor's farmers...in peace times, the population increases, but farmable land does not. Hence, all the families would look for opportunities to get rid of the surplus labor, which might only have a marginal net production, and maybe not even that. I think Littlefinger would have very little trouble with finding interested young men and women in, say, the Reach or the Storm Lands or the Vale of Arryn.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 22nd 8:41 AM As for Harrenhal...the 'curse' is for whatever noble house that holds the castle itself, not for the lands surrounding it. Most farmers from far away probably has not even heard about it, and will not until they have settled down, when it is too late to go back.
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 22nd 9:51 AM I can hear the economy student speaking. :-) Clever boy. I buy it. You are right. I guess, though, that the folk who may attach themselves to Harrenhal might be a different sort. The "curse" will not keep the peasants away, not when they're searching for a better life. But I think it might be the harsher folk who will follow the call - if a call will be raised.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 22nd 11:06 AM A small correction to my second last post - in those sentences where I said that labor productivity decreases, I meant _marginal_ labor productivity - that is, the last labor unit (the last child born) employed will make for less additional labor productivity than the second last unit of labor employed. The overall productivity will always increase with more labor input, but without additional capital, the last labor units will be increasingly less effective. In some cases their productivity will not even offset the cost of employing them (i.e. feeding them) - especially when the labor in question is a new-born baby. (although this could, I guess, be seen as investment in capacity :o) ) Min; Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'harsher', but I suppose those families with most mouths to support would be the most eager to send away those surplus mouths, so they would go first.
Blackstone User ID: 9816503	Apr 11th 10:01 PM I think that Harrenhall has not been claimed by a truly powerful house is that it is a strategic liability. Its size makes it dangerous to hold. It is so big, it requires a whole army to hold, but then you have to feed that army for the length of the seige. Smaller forstresses like Riverrun are better in this regard because a smaller force can hold it, but yet it is large enough to house formidable anti-seige machines like scorpions, etc.