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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Ser Jorah Mormont the Spy

Next 20 Messages

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 Jun 13th 10:46 AM
I overlooked this after two readings, since it came so early in aGoT, but I always thought of Ser Jorah (sp?) as a very honorable man and in love with Dany and committed to protecting her at all costs...yet when I recently re-read aGoT, the second Eddard chapter, he and Robert discuss Ser Jorah and how Varys uses him as a spy because Jorah wants to get a pardon to come back to Westeros, thus he tells the "Usurper" of the marriage with Drogo and of Dany. This hit me like a ton a bricks last night...doesn't that totally contradict his actions and feelings toward Dany? Isn't he betraying her? I mean that info alone caused Robert to want her dead even more than before. What should we make of this??

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Jun 13th 11:00 AM
Good Question Lodengarl.

I think Ser Jorah's motivations are suspect up until the point where Dany became known as the Unburnt. When he saw her survive that fire and the birth of the dragons he was forced to rethink his allegiance. I also think he is in love with her.

It is important to remember the vision that the Undying Ones gave Dany and the things they said to her, though.

She will be betrayed 3 times, IIRC it was Once for gold, once for blood, and once for love.

Perhaps Ser Jorah is just bidding his time. Varys said that he wants to be pardoned and would do almost anything do be redeemed. If Dany succeeds he will return to a place of honor in Westeros, perhaps as the Captain of the Queensguard. Or, once she starts the invasion, if he thinks she will lose, he may betray her.

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 Jun 13th 11:16 AM
What if Varys is working with Jorah to help Dany in aSoS? Varys is only loyal to the Realm, what if he believes the Realm is truly Dany's? With all the crap going on I see not reason why he would not be willing to help her return.

Jorah is to me an "old-school" Knight...honorable, strong and protective, and I think he truly does care and love Dany...but this must be addressed sooner or later, because he has betrayed her in the past, that can't just be left, it must be addressed at some point.

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 Jun 13th 11:17 AM
Dany will be betrayed 3 times, but didn't she already figure out she was betrayed 2 of those times, or did i miss something?

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jun 13th 12:10 PM
hmmm... I think Jora is not to be trusted too much - after all, he was an unhonourable piece of s**t and that's why Eddard wanted his head.

My question is, though, does he still report to Varys? If he does, how come Varys hasn't informed Tyrion about the birth of the dragons? In fact, in ACOK, no one seems to consider Dany at all, other than Joff in the beginning.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 13th 12:40 PM
Because Varys is working for the return of the Targaryens. Telling Joff, Tyrion, etc. about the dragons means that they're that much more likely to give thought and effort into killing her.

Not that Jorah has had much opportunity to report for awhile. Illyrio learns of it some months after the fact. From Jorah, no doubt.

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 Jun 13th 12:46 PM
Interesting...so Jorah is working with Varys for the return of Dany and the Dragons, for rightful rule of Westeros back to the Targs....is Varys' eastern? Varys = Varies, which is pretty funny...

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Jun 13th 10:38 PM
Jorah was going to betray Viserys, who was an insufferable little shit. But he transferred his allegiance to Dany, but I think hes still working for Varys.

Lommy Greenhands
User ID: 9377263 Jun 13th 11:22 PM
I believe Varys is definatly working towards putting Dany on the throne. He might even know about the dragons but is keeping that info to himself for the moment, i also belive that Arstan(Barristan) didnt just happen to stumble upon her,he knew where to look, and Varys through Mormont knew her whereabouts.

Emily
User ID: 2192024 Jun 14th 11:31 AM
I think the turning point for Ser Jorah came with the attempted poisoning of Dany. He had to decide whether he was Varys's spy or Dany's knight, and he chose Dany. I can't waut to see how she reacts when she finds our about his former career as spy, though.

As for Varys - I've never been able to fathom his motives or allegiances. But I think he may have been serious in his speech to Ned about how he just wanted peace, about how the high lords never think of the innocent who die in their game of thrones. In which case, a Targaryen invasion is the last thing Varys would want.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 14th 1:47 PM
I agree that Jorah was/is working for Varys as a spy, but that it's Varys who is the "double agent" -- working for the Targaryens and the Kingdom. Given Vary's true loyalties, he passes on _some_ useful information about Danaerys, but nothing that really could be harmful.

I wonder about the dragons, though. That word will have to spread like wildfire over the main continent, and sooner or later will come to Westeros. For Varys' to "miss" that huge piece of information doesn't seem credible to me. It would be a huge risk because it would cast his loyalties in doubt. He know Danys is pregnant, but doesn't know about the dragons? I agree with Ran that it hasn't been reported yet because Jorah has been somewhat incommunicado. I expect that information will reach Westeros early in ASOS.

Emily, Varys' little speech also included a rather emotional bit about the murder of the Targaryen children, so I think he does feel something there. And that Varys/Illyrio conversation overheard by Arya strongly suggests to me that Varys is pro-Targaryen rather than pro-Kingdom.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jun 14th 4:25 PM
If Varys wants to put Dany back on the throne, why did he tell Robert that she was pregnant? That was bound to make Robert send someone for her. Especially since all Robert did was to offer a Lordship to whoever kills her - there's simply no way for Varys to know all the would be assasins.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 14th 4:31 PM
He only needed to know one. Once Dany had warning, it'd be practically impossible to kill her, because Drogo would see to it. Especially, once they left Vaes Dothrak and hit the plains, it'd be rather impossible.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Jun 14th 7:48 PM
I think Varys wanted robert to send assassins after Dany, knowing that it would really piss off drogo. Remember, that was the moment he decided to eventually invade Westeros

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 Jun 14th 8:53 PM
Maybe but Drogo had promised Viserys an army after Rhaego was born. I guess the assassin was just an extra incentive for Drogo wanting the invasion.

Jorah didn't exactly betray Dany. At least, not yet.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jun 15th 1:29 AM
I don't buy it. It's playing with fire.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 15th 5:08 AM
Sure it is, but they needed Drogo to move now rather than later. It worked.

Ultimately, I'd not be surprised if Illyrio himself initiated that particular try so that they could be certain of it. I mean, how many people knew she was in Vaes Dothrak still? And would be there when the caravans arrived to trade? That's the sort of information an assassin would need, and that's the information Illyrio would have.

So it's easy to see why it was predicted, I suppose. Not to say Illyrio did it directly, but it wouldn't be difficult to put an extra layer or two between himself and the assassin. Not like Drogo is the sort who'll go hunting through a city to find such a thing out.

Also, back to your earlier point, there is only so long that Varys can keep ae secret before it reaches the Red Keep by some other mouth. He holds his position because he's effecient and he gets a lot of information. Missing that Dany was pregnant would be a huge oversight, quite unlike him, and so suspicious.

I daresay he held out as long as he could on it, before ships began to arrive from the Free Cities which had the news.

Sphinx
User ID: 8882983 Jun 16th 5:38 PM
I agree with Ser Benjen and Emily on Ser Jorah - I think he's loyal to her now, but I think he will be the one to betray her for love - because he loves her, he will do something for the love of her which will be her undoing.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jun 26th 12:02 PM
I think Varys and Illyrio did not intend for Dany to ascend the throne at first.

Everything spoke against her, really - she was a woman, and younger than Viserys, and something of nervous wreck before her marriage with Drogo.

Besides, marrying her off to a Horselord hardly speaks in favor of them wanting her on the throne - I don't think they would favor the Dragon heirs' blood mixed up with barbarian stock.

Viserys might not have made a good king, but he was a Targaryen, and male, and the 'rightful heir'.
Besides, weak as he was, he could be guided
easily by Varys once positioned on the throne.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 26th 1:40 PM
At least that was the plan. If they did manage to sit him on the throne, they would soon have learned that he was impossible to control.

Next 20 Messages

Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	Jun 13th 10:46 AM I overlooked this after two readings, since it came so early in aGoT, but I always thought of Ser Jorah (sp?) as a very honorable man and in love with Dany and committed to protecting her at all costs...yet when I recently re-read aGoT, the second Eddard chapter, he and Robert discuss Ser Jorah and how Varys uses him as a spy because Jorah wants to get a pardon to come back to Westeros, thus he tells the "Usurper" of the marriage with Drogo and of Dany. This hit me like a ton a bricks last night...doesn't that totally contradict his actions and feelings toward Dany? Isn't he betraying her? I mean that info alone caused Robert to want her dead even more than before. What should we make of this??
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Jun 13th 11:00 AM Good Question Lodengarl. I think Ser Jorah's motivations are suspect up until the point where Dany became known as the Unburnt. When he saw her survive that fire and the birth of the dragons he was forced to rethink his allegiance. I also think he is in love with her. It is important to remember the vision that the Undying Ones gave Dany and the things they said to her, though. She will be betrayed 3 times, IIRC it was Once for gold, once for blood, and once for love. Perhaps Ser Jorah is just bidding his time. Varys said that he wants to be pardoned and would do almost anything do be redeemed. If Dany succeeds he will return to a place of honor in Westeros, perhaps as the Captain of the Queensguard. Or, once she starts the invasion, if he thinks she will lose, he may betray her.
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	Jun 13th 11:16 AM What if Varys is working with Jorah to help Dany in aSoS? Varys is only loyal to the Realm, what if he believes the Realm is truly Dany's? With all the crap going on I see not reason why he would not be willing to help her return. Jorah is to me an "old-school" Knight...honorable, strong and protective, and I think he truly does care and love Dany...but this must be addressed sooner or later, because he has betrayed her in the past, that can't just be left, it must be addressed at some point.
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	Jun 13th 11:17 AM Dany will be betrayed 3 times, but didn't she already figure out she was betrayed 2 of those times, or did i miss something?
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jun 13th 12:10 PM hmmm... I think Jora is not to be trusted too much - after all, he was an unhonourable piece of s**t and that's why Eddard wanted his head. My question is, though, does he still report to Varys? If he does, how come Varys hasn't informed Tyrion about the birth of the dragons? In fact, in ACOK, no one seems to consider Dany at all, other than Joff in the beginning.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 13th 12:40 PM Because Varys is working for the return of the Targaryens. Telling Joff, Tyrion, etc. about the dragons means that they're that much more likely to give thought and effort into killing her. Not that Jorah has had much opportunity to report for awhile. Illyrio learns of it some months after the fact. From Jorah, no doubt.
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	Jun 13th 12:46 PM Interesting...so Jorah is working with Varys for the return of Dany and the Dragons, for rightful rule of Westeros back to the Targs....is Varys' eastern? Varys = Varies, which is pretty funny...
Brady User ID: 0721754	Jun 13th 10:38 PM Jorah was going to betray Viserys, who was an insufferable little shit. But he transferred his allegiance to Dany, but I think hes still working for Varys.
Lommy Greenhands User ID: 9377263	Jun 13th 11:22 PM I believe Varys is definatly working towards putting Dany on the throne. He might even know about the dragons but is keeping that info to himself for the moment, i also belive that Arstan(Barristan) didnt just happen to stumble upon her,he knew where to look, and Varys through Mormont knew her whereabouts.
Emily User ID: 2192024	Jun 14th 11:31 AM I think the turning point for Ser Jorah came with the attempted poisoning of Dany. He had to decide whether he was Varys's spy or Dany's knight, and he chose Dany. I can't waut to see how she reacts when she finds our about his former career as spy, though. As for Varys - I've never been able to fathom his motives or allegiances. But I think he may have been serious in his speech to Ned about how he just wanted peace, about how the high lords never think of the innocent who die in their game of thrones. In which case, a Targaryen invasion is the last thing Varys would want.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 14th 1:47 PM I agree that Jorah was/is working for Varys as a spy, but that it's Varys who is the "double agent" -- working for the Targaryens and the Kingdom. Given Vary's true loyalties, he passes on _some_ useful information about Danaerys, but nothing that really could be harmful. I wonder about the dragons, though. That word will have to spread like wildfire over the main continent, and sooner or later will come to Westeros. For Varys' to "miss" that huge piece of information doesn't seem credible to me. It would be a huge risk because it would cast his loyalties in doubt. He know Danys is pregnant, but doesn't know about the dragons? I agree with Ran that it hasn't been reported yet because Jorah has been somewhat incommunicado. I expect that information will reach Westeros early in ASOS. Emily, Varys' little speech also included a rather emotional bit about the murder of the Targaryen children, so I think he does feel something there. And that Varys/Illyrio conversation overheard by Arya strongly suggests to me that Varys is pro-Targaryen rather than pro-Kingdom.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jun 14th 4:25 PM If Varys wants to put Dany back on the throne, why did he tell Robert that she was pregnant? That was bound to make Robert send someone for her. Especially since all Robert did was to offer a Lordship to whoever kills her - there's simply no way for Varys to know all the would be assasins.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 14th 4:31 PM He only needed to know one. Once Dany had warning, it'd be practically impossible to kill her, because Drogo would see to it. Especially, once they left Vaes Dothrak and hit the plains, it'd be rather impossible.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Jun 14th 7:48 PM I think Varys wanted robert to send assassins after Dany, knowing that it would really piss off drogo. Remember, that was the moment he decided to eventually invade Westeros
Moreta User ID: 0701364	Jun 14th 8:53 PM Maybe but Drogo had promised Viserys an army after Rhaego was born. I guess the assassin was just an extra incentive for Drogo wanting the invasion. Jorah didn't exactly betray Dany. At least, not yet.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jun 15th 1:29 AM I don't buy it. It's playing with fire.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 15th 5:08 AM Sure it is, but they needed Drogo to move now rather than later. It worked. Ultimately, I'd not be surprised if Illyrio himself initiated that particular try so that they could be certain of it. I mean, how many people knew she was in Vaes Dothrak still? And would be there when the caravans arrived to trade? That's the sort of information an assassin would need, and that's the information Illyrio would have. So it's easy to see why it was predicted, I suppose. Not to say Illyrio did it directly, but it wouldn't be difficult to put an extra layer or two between himself and the assassin. Not like Drogo is the sort who'll go hunting through a city to find such a thing out. Also, back to your earlier point, there is only so long that Varys can keep ae secret before it reaches the Red Keep by some other mouth. He holds his position because he's effecient and he gets a lot of information. Missing that Dany was pregnant would be a huge oversight, quite unlike him, and so suspicious. I daresay he held out as long as he could on it, before ships began to arrive from the Free Cities which had the news.
Sphinx User ID: 8882983	Jun 16th 5:38 PM I agree with Ser Benjen and Emily on Ser Jorah - I think he's loyal to her now, but I think he will be the one to betray her for love - because he loves her, he will do something for the love of her which will be her undoing.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jun 26th 12:02 PM I think Varys and Illyrio did not intend for Dany to ascend the throne at first. Everything spoke against her, really - she was a woman, and younger than Viserys, and something of nervous wreck before her marriage with Drogo. Besides, marrying her off to a Horselord hardly speaks in favor of them wanting her on the throne - I don't think they would favor the Dragon heirs' blood mixed up with barbarian stock. Viserys might not have made a good king, but he was a Targaryen, and male, and the 'rightful heir'. Besides, weak as he was, he could be guided easily by Varys once positioned on the throne.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 26th 1:40 PM At least that was the plan. If they did manage to sit him on the throne, they would soon have learned that he was impossible to control.