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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Nits to Pick III

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Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 Feb 5th 2:30 PM
Well, #II died after only 57 entered posts. Well, this is the post I last tried to enter. This is part of the ongoing debate Ran and I are having regarding Benjen, and his choice to join the Nightwatch instead of becoming a Lord or Vassel of another Lord.

Was it prudent for Benjen to have wanted to join the Nightswatch though? At the end of the Usurpers war, he was Ned's heir. Also, if anything happened to Ned before Ned's children came of age, then he would presumably have been regent, head councillor, and surrogate father. If you look at things that way, then I could lose a lot of respect for Benjen for joining before Robb attained his majority. Sure, Rodrick was around, but Benjen was family.

ab

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 5th 2:50 PM
I don't know if it was prudent. But it was his decision. I do expect that Benjen waited until Robb was born, at least, and maybe long enough for Brandon to be born as well.

Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 Feb 5th 3:12 PM
Perhaps, perhaps. Nevertheless, he should have at least sired a kid before he joined just in case misfortune happened. Look what happened to the Targaryons during the plague. They were nearly wiped out. I would like to think that illness due to the climate is more prevalent in the North. At least of Benjen would have had a few bastards, then someone in the family would still be left to inherit if disaster befell them.

Then again, assuming Benjen is fine, and plans on dying in the Nightswatch, what would happen if he went to Moletown, or while on leave, fathered a bastard?

ab

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 5th 3:28 PM
Hrm ... I'm not sure if the imperative is, necessarily, to reproduce as many offspring as possible. Securing things within reason is fine -- but Eddard had Robb, perhaps Bran, and Jon Snow. I think Brandon could presume that'd be enough.

As to fathering a bastard ... well. I don't think so. Benjen's certainly must be one of the few men of the true steel in the Watch. I can't see him visiting with whores.

Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 Feb 5th 5:31 PM
True true, Eddard basically had 3 heirs behind him, with Jon and Benjen as emergency back-ups.

ab

labor
User ID: 0798784 Feb 6th 11:36 AM
Well, I think that it was very imprudent of Benjen to take the black and of Ned to allow it. I mean, even leaving alone Targaryens look at the Cassels!
At least, unless Catelyn was as paranoid about Benjen as she was about Jon and practically forced the issue...
OTOH, the best use of Benjen in the interests of the North would be for him to serve Robert in KL, IMHO.

BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if Ben joined as recently as after Rickon's birth. Even Bran seems to be familiar with him, so he'd have to have been around more than for a visit in x years for that.

Also, from Ben's talk with Jon it seems that he had known "woman's love" and may have sired a few children (bastards or no), but since they never get mentioned, they would have to be dead. IMHO death of his lady-love and his child(ren) might have been an additional motive for Benjen to take the black.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 6th 12:17 PM
I think it's entirely unreasonable for someone's duty to be seen as to leave himself available unless great, unexpected tragedy falls on his house. It happens, but it's not a common thing.

The best interests of the North ... arguable. The Starks believe in the Wall and they believe in the sacred duty of the Watch. What's more honorable? Politicking in King's Landing? Or serving on the Wall?

I think the answer for both Ned and Benjen is clear. They don't think about such things. It takes Catelyn to remind Ned that perhaps Benjen would want to be at Winterfell for Robert's visit to speak for the Watch. It's just not how they think and it's not how they _want_ to think.

Benjen no doubt felt better about his life and his place in it on the Wall then he'd ever be in the court of King's Landing. ;)

On the other hand, I do like that suggestion -- that he was wed and had children and they subsequently died. Perhaps some epidemic, perhaps some accident?

The only thing that _A Game of Thrones_ really lacked was at least one line explaining why Benjen was in the Watch. Tell us it was because he always wanted to, or because of some disaster in his past ... bleh. ;) Maybe _A Storm of Swords_ will reveal it, if Jon thinks of why he joined the Watch and draws a comparison to why Benjen did, or something.

Another thought on the entire Night's Watch thing -- if a person stands up and says they intend to join the Watch, who's to stop them, legitimately?

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 19th 11:36 AM
Another nit, IMHO. Infant and child mortality seems ridiculously low in ASOIAF. Even given the impression that their medicine and sanitation is more like those in RL early 19th century, it is still not very plausible. Almost everyone except the poor Hoster Tully has all their kids safely reaching adolescence/adulthood. I.e. Walder Frey, for instance, etc.
Also, among the Houses whose listings were provided in ACOK, no one except Targaryens apparently lost members during the War of the Usurper or during Greyjoy's rebellion (well, in this case except for Balon himself). And apparently no man in those Houses, apart from Ser Tygett Lannister died from an illness in the last 15 years. Strange, huh?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 19th 12:56 PM
Hrm. Rodrik Cassel and his brother lost many children, some before they reached adulthood. I would wager, also, that there probably have been deaths -- after all, what about the women who died in childbirth? We don't need to assume that every child from such an occassion survived birth. To take one example, we know Lord Hoster had a son die shortly after his wife, and that boy isn't listed.

You'e got Jon Arryn's one child before Robert come out stillborn, for example.

Then the Freys: '(Maegelle, died in childhood)', Marsella Waynwood died in childbed (no indication if her child is Bryan Frey or if it died with her), Tyana Wylde is the same, Wynafrei Whent has had numerous stillbirths and miscarriages..

The disease issue has rather more to do with the fact that it's been Spring and Summer for a very, very long time. Good weather does not tend to support plagues or rampant disease -- heat may help bacteria reproduce, but in good weather people tend to clean house and wash more often and not huddle closely packed for warmth. I should imagine a plague year would show up as heavily telling.

We see lots of dead folk mentioned, actually. I daresay that some might well have died of some disease, GRRM just hasn't put any thought to it. I believe Ser Tygett's manner of death is mentioned somewhere in the text. Also, as for the fighting, again, we see lots of dead folk here and there -- Ser Pate of the Blue Fork, all the folk with Brandon and then Ned, etc.

The house listings really aren't exhaustive. People who should get a place -- Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Theo Wull, Rodrik's brother, etc. -- aren't listed. That none of the Great Houses have lost people in the fighting at Pyke (the Greyjoys did, however, and who knows -- Gerion Lannister might have fallen overboard while fighting reavers) isn't so strange, though. There's Ned, and there's Robert and Stannis, and Jaime and Tywin, and Mace, and Lord Hoster and perhaps Edmure, and Jon ... that's a tiny group of people of an age to go fighting there.

It's even more noticeable with the War of the Usurper. None of the Freys died, of course, because they don't seem to have done anything until the very end. Same with the Lannisters. Mace Tyrell spent his entire time besieging, Stannis being besieged. Edmure wouldn't be a factor that long ago. And of course the Dornish princes don't seem to have taken part at all..

In any case, I'd put this down to a lack of information (not clarified whether the children who died while still babies are listed; don't seem to be, given the example of Lord Hoster's son; also no explaination as to who died of what and when for many of the listings -- just marked dead.) I can easily see the listing fitting what one would largely expect.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 19th 7:09 PM
Well, I was speaking about the listed Houses. Hoster Tully and the Cassels seem to be "realistic", but the others? I mean, even if we say that each "death in childbed" was accompanied by a dead unmentioned baby as well, no children seem to die in childhood.
I.e. Lord Walder has 23 sons, only one of whom is dead (drowned), none died from illness. All lived to adulthood, none died from natural causes, although it was mentioned that reaching 50+ is rather unusual in Westeros.Of his 8 daughters, 1 died in childbed, but others are alive and well, with 6 of them having already reached adulthood. None of Walder's grandchildren seem to have died at all.
Tywin Lannister - 3 children, all grown to adulthood.
Rickard Stark - 4 children, all grown to adulthood (even if barely).
Olenna Tyrell -3
Mace Tyrell - 4
Martells...
Ergo the numerous examples among the Florents, etc. And it isn't like the dead offspring/siblings weren't noted on the list.
None of the Tyrells or Florents apparently died in the War of the Usurper, although they had a few people to spare and IIRC Rhaegar did have some limited contingent from the Reach with him.

Very few people and exactly one man on the lists seem to have died from illnesses.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 20th 4:13 AM
Was child mortality widespread amongst nobility in medieval times? (ruling out those who die at birth, that is)

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 20th 5:41 AM
We don't know that none of Walder's children under, say, 2 years of age died and weren't bothered to be listed. We have just that one example of a child being noted to have died while young, and I would hardly rule out that there are more. Same with the men dying of illness -- we get only one mention, but that's because it was in the books. How many of the dead men listed died of illness? We don't know. We don't know what they died from, most of them, we just know they're dead.

Trebla
User ID: 0721754 Mar 20th 12:54 PM
Kah, I seem to remember reading that Edward I of England had several children that died of illness. I'm not sure if that is the exception or the rule.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 20th 4:25 PM
Yes, and Queen Anne had 18 pregnancies, 13 of which ended with a stillbirth and 5 children none of whom survived her. Ergo Maria Teresia - 16 children, 11 of whom lived to adulthood, Edward II was IIRC 3rd or even 4th son of Erdward I and had a couple of sisters who died in childhood as well, etc., etc.

Childhood mortality was pretty high even among the nobles/royals, much higher than in ASOIAF. Even given their medical advantages over RL, they should lose each 3rd or 4th child.

And we know the reasons for death of all men on the lists except for Ser Pate of Blue Fork, who IMHO most likely died on the Green Fork. One fall from a horse, two drownings, one killed beyond the Wall, one (sic!) illness and a poisoning.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 20th 4:38 PM
Forgot Lord Rickard and Brandon Starks creatively killed by Aerys and Lord Stephen Baratheon would make the third drowning.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 20th 4:41 PM
Roose Bolton's son? Cause of death unknown. Of course, one could predict the worst with Roose, but even so. What happened to all the Whents? Lord Whent died at some point, perhaps during the war. And Oswell Whent, of course. But it seems there were others to be Lady Whent's 'ghosts.' What happened to the uncle of the Baratheons? Did the Martells have any other uncles and aunts beyond Prince Llewyn? What exactly happened to Edric Dayne's mother/father?

Ser Willum Darry died of disease, and his brother died at the ruby ford. Any other Darrys die, beyond Ser Raymund and hsi young son? What happened to Lord Bar Emmon's father, that he inherited so young? Which of Lord Walder's wives died naturally and which died of illness or accident?

And so on. Those are just the ones that a brief glance and a search of memory brings up.

The family listing is not complete and doesn't try to be complete. A lot of figures mentioned in passing or probable aren't given any clarification, causes of death aren't clarified, we've no clue as to how many children who died very young are or aren't listed, and the like.

Trebla
User ID: 0721754 Mar 21st 9:56 AM
Speaking of families, I have a another nit. This may have been an old subject but I am reletively new to the board. Why were Stannis and Renly not crowned as Princes? Afterall, their brother was crowned as king after the war. And Stannis would have been the heir before Joffrey was born. Is there a monarchy law regarding new dynasties? Or did Robert have something to do with it? His disdain for Stannis was obvious. He slighted him by giving Renly Storm's End. Does anyone have any idea?

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 21st 10:17 AM
I don't know if it's custom to crown princes; perhaps best not to give younger brothers any notions... :P

Trebla
User ID: 0721754 Mar 21st 11:56 AM
Kah, I thought the same thing. But Bran and Rickon have both been refered to as "the two Princes" (good song).

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 21st 12:24 PM
I actually believe there's one reference, somewhere in the books, where someone refers to Robert's brothers as princes.

Tywin perhaps?

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Dirjj User ID: 1954724	Feb 5th 2:30 PM Well, #II died after only 57 entered posts. Well, this is the post I last tried to enter. This is part of the ongoing debate Ran and I are having regarding Benjen, and his choice to join the Nightwatch instead of becoming a Lord or Vassel of another Lord. Was it prudent for Benjen to have wanted to join the Nightswatch though? At the end of the Usurpers war, he was Ned's heir. Also, if anything happened to Ned before Ned's children came of age, then he would presumably have been regent, head councillor, and surrogate father. If you look at things that way, then I could lose a lot of respect for Benjen for joining before Robb attained his majority. Sure, Rodrick was around, but Benjen was family. ab
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 5th 2:50 PM I don't know if it was prudent. But it was his decision. I do expect that Benjen waited until Robb was born, at least, and maybe long enough for Brandon to be born as well.
Dirjj User ID: 1954724	Feb 5th 3:12 PM Perhaps, perhaps. Nevertheless, he should have at least sired a kid before he joined just in case misfortune happened. Look what happened to the Targaryons during the plague. They were nearly wiped out. I would like to think that illness due to the climate is more prevalent in the North. At least of Benjen would have had a few bastards, then someone in the family would still be left to inherit if disaster befell them. Then again, assuming Benjen is fine, and plans on dying in the Nightswatch, what would happen if he went to Moletown, or while on leave, fathered a bastard? ab
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 5th 3:28 PM Hrm ... I'm not sure if the imperative is, necessarily, to reproduce as many offspring as possible. Securing things within reason is fine -- but Eddard had Robb, perhaps Bran, and Jon Snow. I think Brandon could presume that'd be enough. As to fathering a bastard ... well. I don't think so. Benjen's certainly must be one of the few men of the true steel in the Watch. I can't see him visiting with whores.
Dirjj User ID: 1954724	Feb 5th 5:31 PM True true, Eddard basically had 3 heirs behind him, with Jon and Benjen as emergency back-ups. ab
labor User ID: 0798784	Feb 6th 11:36 AM Well, I think that it was very imprudent of Benjen to take the black and of Ned to allow it. I mean, even leaving alone Targaryens look at the Cassels! At least, unless Catelyn was as paranoid about Benjen as she was about Jon and practically forced the issue... OTOH, the best use of Benjen in the interests of the North would be for him to serve Robert in KL, IMHO. BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if Ben joined as recently as after Rickon's birth. Even Bran seems to be familiar with him, so he'd have to have been around more than for a visit in x years for that. Also, from Ben's talk with Jon it seems that he had known "woman's love" and may have sired a few children (bastards or no), but since they never get mentioned, they would have to be dead. IMHO death of his lady-love and his child(ren) might have been an additional motive for Benjen to take the black.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 6th 12:17 PM I think it's entirely unreasonable for someone's duty to be seen as to leave himself available unless great, unexpected tragedy falls on his house. It happens, but it's not a common thing. The best interests of the North ... arguable. The Starks believe in the Wall and they believe in the sacred duty of the Watch. What's more honorable? Politicking in King's Landing? Or serving on the Wall? I think the answer for both Ned and Benjen is clear. They don't think about such things. It takes Catelyn to remind Ned that perhaps Benjen would want to be at Winterfell for Robert's visit to speak for the Watch. It's just not how they think and it's not how they _want_ to think. Benjen no doubt felt better about his life and his place in it on the Wall then he'd ever be in the court of King's Landing. ;) On the other hand, I do like that suggestion -- that he was wed and had children and they subsequently died. Perhaps some epidemic, perhaps some accident? The only thing that _A Game of Thrones_ really lacked was at least one line explaining why Benjen was in the Watch. Tell us it was because he always wanted to, or because of some disaster in his past ... bleh. ;) Maybe _A Storm of Swords_ will reveal it, if Jon thinks of why he joined the Watch and draws a comparison to why Benjen did, or something. Another thought on the entire Night's Watch thing -- if a person stands up and says they intend to join the Watch, who's to stop them, legitimately?
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 19th 11:36 AM Another nit, IMHO. Infant and child mortality seems ridiculously low in ASOIAF. Even given the impression that their medicine and sanitation is more like those in RL early 19th century, it is still not very plausible. Almost everyone except the poor Hoster Tully has all their kids safely reaching adolescence/adulthood. I.e. Walder Frey, for instance, etc. Also, among the Houses whose listings were provided in ACOK, no one except Targaryens apparently lost members during the War of the Usurper or during Greyjoy's rebellion (well, in this case except for Balon himself). And apparently no man in those Houses, apart from Ser Tygett Lannister died from an illness in the last 15 years. Strange, huh?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 19th 12:56 PM Hrm. Rodrik Cassel and his brother lost many children, some before they reached adulthood. I would wager, also, that there probably have been deaths -- after all, what about the women who died in childbirth? We don't need to assume that every child from such an occassion survived birth. To take one example, we know Lord Hoster had a son die shortly after his wife, and that boy isn't listed. You'e got Jon Arryn's one child before Robert come out stillborn, for example. Then the Freys: '(Maegelle, died in childhood)', Marsella Waynwood died in childbed (no indication if her child is Bryan Frey or if it died with her), Tyana Wylde is the same, Wynafrei Whent has had numerous stillbirths and miscarriages.. The disease issue has rather more to do with the fact that it's been Spring and Summer for a very, very long time. Good weather does not tend to support plagues or rampant disease -- heat may help bacteria reproduce, but in good weather people tend to clean house and wash more often and not huddle closely packed for warmth. I should imagine a plague year would show up as heavily telling. We see lots of dead folk mentioned, actually. I daresay that some might well have died of some disease, GRRM just hasn't put any thought to it. I believe Ser Tygett's manner of death is mentioned somewhere in the text. Also, as for the fighting, again, we see lots of dead folk here and there -- Ser Pate of the Blue Fork, all the folk with Brandon and then Ned, etc. The house listings really aren't exhaustive. People who should get a place -- Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Theo Wull, Rodrik's brother, etc. -- aren't listed. That none of the Great Houses have lost people in the fighting at Pyke (the Greyjoys did, however, and who knows -- Gerion Lannister might have fallen overboard while fighting reavers) isn't so strange, though. There's Ned, and there's Robert and Stannis, and Jaime and Tywin, and Mace, and Lord Hoster and perhaps Edmure, and Jon ... that's a tiny group of people of an age to go fighting there. It's even more noticeable with the War of the Usurper. None of the Freys died, of course, because they don't seem to have done anything until the very end. Same with the Lannisters. Mace Tyrell spent his entire time besieging, Stannis being besieged. Edmure wouldn't be a factor that long ago. And of course the Dornish princes don't seem to have taken part at all.. In any case, I'd put this down to a lack of information (not clarified whether the children who died while still babies are listed; don't seem to be, given the example of Lord Hoster's son; also no explaination as to who died of what and when for many of the listings -- just marked dead.) I can easily see the listing fitting what one would largely expect.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 19th 7:09 PM Well, I was speaking about the listed Houses. Hoster Tully and the Cassels seem to be "realistic", but the others? I mean, even if we say that each "death in childbed" was accompanied by a dead unmentioned baby as well, no children seem to die in childhood. I.e. Lord Walder has 23 sons, only one of whom is dead (drowned), none died from illness. All lived to adulthood, none died from natural causes, although it was mentioned that reaching 50+ is rather unusual in Westeros.Of his 8 daughters, 1 died in childbed, but others are alive and well, with 6 of them having already reached adulthood. None of Walder's grandchildren seem to have died at all. Tywin Lannister - 3 children, all grown to adulthood. Rickard Stark - 4 children, all grown to adulthood (even if barely). Olenna Tyrell -3 Mace Tyrell - 4 Martells... Ergo the numerous examples among the Florents, etc. And it isn't like the dead offspring/siblings weren't noted on the list. None of the Tyrells or Florents apparently died in the War of the Usurper, although they had a few people to spare and IIRC Rhaegar did have some limited contingent from the Reach with him. Very few people and exactly one man on the lists seem to have died from illnesses.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 20th 4:13 AM Was child mortality widespread amongst nobility in medieval times? (ruling out those who die at birth, that is)
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 20th 5:41 AM We don't know that none of Walder's children under, say, 2 years of age died and weren't bothered to be listed. We have just that one example of a child being noted to have died while young, and I would hardly rule out that there are more. Same with the men dying of illness -- we get only one mention, but that's because it was in the books. How many of the dead men listed died of illness? We don't know. We don't know what they died from, most of them, we just know they're dead.
Trebla User ID: 0721754	Mar 20th 12:54 PM Kah, I seem to remember reading that Edward I of England had several children that died of illness. I'm not sure if that is the exception or the rule.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 20th 4:25 PM Yes, and Queen Anne had 18 pregnancies, 13 of which ended with a stillbirth and 5 children none of whom survived her. Ergo Maria Teresia - 16 children, 11 of whom lived to adulthood, Edward II was IIRC 3rd or even 4th son of Erdward I and had a couple of sisters who died in childhood as well, etc., etc. Childhood mortality was pretty high even among the nobles/royals, much higher than in ASOIAF. Even given their medical advantages over RL, they should lose each 3rd or 4th child. And we know the reasons for death of all men on the lists except for Ser Pate of Blue Fork, who IMHO most likely died on the Green Fork. One fall from a horse, two drownings, one killed beyond the Wall, one (sic!) illness and a poisoning.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 20th 4:38 PM Forgot Lord Rickard and Brandon Starks creatively killed by Aerys and Lord Stephen Baratheon would make the third drowning.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 20th 4:41 PM Roose Bolton's son? Cause of death unknown. Of course, one could predict the worst with Roose, but even so. What happened to all the Whents? Lord Whent died at some point, perhaps during the war. And Oswell Whent, of course. But it seems there were others to be Lady Whent's 'ghosts.' What happened to the uncle of the Baratheons? Did the Martells have any other uncles and aunts beyond Prince Llewyn? What exactly happened to Edric Dayne's mother/father? Ser Willum Darry died of disease, and his brother died at the ruby ford. Any other Darrys die, beyond Ser Raymund and hsi young son? What happened to Lord Bar Emmon's father, that he inherited so young? Which of Lord Walder's wives died naturally and which died of illness or accident? And so on. Those are just the ones that a brief glance and a search of memory brings up. The family listing is not complete and doesn't try to be complete. A lot of figures mentioned in passing or probable aren't given any clarification, causes of death aren't clarified, we've no clue as to how many children who died very young are or aren't listed, and the like.
Trebla User ID: 0721754	Mar 21st 9:56 AM Speaking of families, I have a another nit. This may have been an old subject but I am reletively new to the board. Why were Stannis and Renly not crowned as Princes? Afterall, their brother was crowned as king after the war. And Stannis would have been the heir before Joffrey was born. Is there a monarchy law regarding new dynasties? Or did Robert have something to do with it? His disdain for Stannis was obvious. He slighted him by giving Renly Storm's End. Does anyone have any idea?
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 21st 10:17 AM I don't know if it's custom to crown princes; perhaps best not to give younger brothers any notions... :P
Trebla User ID: 0721754	Mar 21st 11:56 AM Kah, I thought the same thing. But Bran and Rickon have both been refered to as "the two Princes" (good song).
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 21st 12:24 PM I actually believe there's one reference, somewhere in the books, where someone refers to Robert's brothers as princes. Tywin perhaps?