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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Tidbits of English History II

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Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jun 14th 0:30 AM
Thought it was over for good, didn't you? :)

Anyway, I have a few questions:

One for Nyn,

What did you think of Owen of Wales, grandson of Rhodri ap Gruffydd? Apparently, this book I was reading . . . MEDIEVAL WARLORDS . . . said that his lineage was disbelieved by some.

Anyway, he went off to fight for France and other countries . . . and when opportunities arose, he always fought against England.

Like his great uncle, he too was assassinated by the English.

I'll put my next question in the following message.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jun 14th 0:56 AM
Next question . . . what were the general legal rights and punishments between lords, freemen, clergy and peasantry?

I'm somewhat familiar with the chilvaric code where the nobles were to protect the peasantry, who worked the land in return and followed the laws. If the latter broke them, they suffered harsh punishment . . . perhaps even cruel or evil by our standards today.

But, I was under the impression that applied only in England, after the Magna Carta in 1215 A.D., and the northern territories of France (the most chivalric during the mid middle ages).

What about in other parts of western and eastern Europe?

Just read over a young adults book called MEN IN ARMOR, which is pretty informative for its target audience.

There was a section on tribal justice (but this was a few decades after the fall of the western Roman Empire in 476 A.D.) which listed various laws . . .

(1) COMPURGATION (basically, the number of people to stand up and say that you were in the right for an accussed crime . . . was evidence or character taken into account? Probably not): interesting that nobles needed far less compurgators than a peasant who was charged by a noble or harmed a nobles. Not surprising certainly.

Example: noble accused of killing a peasant needed ONLY 11 compurgators; vice versa, the peasant, who murdered a noble, needed 35.

Seems like bribery and threats would come into play here (for those who had the power and will).

(2) ORDEAL (by fire and water): self explanatory, I believe.

Any chance of cheating in either of these (for those familiar with the procedures)?

(3) WAGER OF BATTLE: we saw this in AGOT with Tyrion . . . you could choose your champion, too.
Of course, it didn't really ask the question of what if you chose a champion who would take weeks or months to get there? Was it acceptable or did it apply on the ruler's territory?

Also, could a knight, who knew the accuser would easily hack him to bits, get a champion? And, if so, how much would it disgrace or affect him?

(4) WERGELD: introduced by the barbarians also . . . a system of paying for wounds by fines in order to avoid blood feuds.

Anyway, anyone who can answer these questions . . . much appreciated.

Even better, any books or websites that you can point me to that would go into more details would be very helpful.

Remember, THE SEED IS OH SO STRONG!!!

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jun 14th 1:01 AM
P.S.

Ran,

I located Ross' WARS OF THE ROSES: A CONCISE HISTORY . . . thanks.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 9983153 Jun 16th 2:24 PM
What? No takers? Can no one answer these illustrious questions? :)

Remember, THE SEED IS STRONG!!!!

Malice
User ID: 1759784 Jun 16th 8:35 PM
Ok, I'll have a try at these then. Which Owain of Wales do you mean (you did get as descriptive as possible by naming is grandsire--,Rhodri ap Gruffydd ap Llywelyn (Fawr), is it?--so I'm just clueless)? Alas, I need my Oxford book of British kings and queens beside me (and I lent it to a friend).

It would be wonderful if Nynaeve popped in. ;)

Nynaeve
User ID: 2345204 Jun 19th 2:26 PM
Helloooo! I've been in Austin since Thursday! Ah, the loveliness....

Anyway, I assume you are talking about Owain the latter as opposed to Owain Fawr? Well, I admit I don't know much about him. But I, too, question his lineage. I doubt Edward I would have left him running about. All the legitimate scions of the House of Gwynedd were assasinated, executed, starved to death or imprisoned. However, there was talk of him being from a bastard line.

Nynnie
:)

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jun 19th 6:19 PM
Nynnie, :)

I was trying to get H.W. Koch's MEDIEVAL WARFARE and the dealer made a mistake, sending me MEDIEVAL WARLORDS. Mostly a compilation of somewhat known warlords from early to late medieval times.

I believe his name here is Owen Glyndwr . . . grandson of Rhodri ap Gruffyd, who is listed here as serving the English King, Edward I (Longshanks to some in BRAVEHEART).

Historian's argue as to his legitimacy. This book seems to support that he is of such stock.

Owen of Wales (as he's called in this book) was betrayed by a fellow Welsh exile named John Lamb. Lamb became his servant and plunged a javelin into his back one day.

Remember, THE SEED IS STRONG!!!

Malice
User ID: 1759784 Jun 19th 11:52 PM
*That* Owain! (I'm not even sure there was the other one that I suggested...)

Don't know much about this.

Mean fellow, Lamb. Blech.

Nynaeve
User ID: 2345204 Jun 20th 8:18 PM
OH!!!!!! Glendower!!!!!! Glyndwr! I'm currently reading "The Revolution of Owain GlynDwr" by RR Davies. Hell yes! No, he has no connection to the House of Gwynedd. His royal lines come from the Southern Welsh princes. His rebellion lasted approx 14 years, really the meet of it 1400-1409. No one knows for certain where he disappeared to, how he died. I've never heard the Lamb/javelin thing.

Bizarre. Anyway, he makes an comical appearance in Shakespeare "When I was born there were tremors in the vasty deep..."

I think it's an interesting portrait in time. HIs revolt was the last major rebellion against the English. He's still legendary among the people and I had a chance to visit Machynlleth - the seat of his first Independent Parliament. The place was near-shambles. The British Trust refuses to take care of it with there TONS of money...guess why? Whatever!

Anyway, Rhodri ap Gryffyd was a brother to Llyweln Olaf - the Last - and apparently had a son named Owain. I had believed him to be murdered or in captivity.

Thus the confusion...

Nyn

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 20th 10:10 PM
I traced the geneology of Llewellyn the Last today. All the way down to Henry Tudor, and we know where it went from there.

I just could not sort out the Welsh Warrior question, I rear. I stil think it likely Son of Hot Pie is looking at a different Owain. Thats becaues Owain most definitely disappeared in 1412 never to be heard of again. Many scholars believe he went to live with his daughter, and in the village where his daughter lives the folk will tell you a horse was kept saddled day and night just in case he needed to flee.

IIRC, Llewellyn the Last had two brothers, Owain and Dafydd. Their father, Gryffudd, was the illegitimate son of Llewellyn the Great. His father's name was Rhodri. So, if you are looking for an "illegitimate" Owain, grandson of Rhodri, it could be this guy, Owain Goch (the red)

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jun 21st 0:14 AM
LE,

That may be the one. After he died, Welsh poets created myths about him. He was called Owen Lawgoch: Owen of the Red Hand, or Owen the Outlaw.

His death was about 1378 but

. . . in France they believed he slept in a cave w/ his followers awaiting the bell of destiny to lead him forth to conquer the English and win back the land of his forefathers. In Welsh minds, Owen became another Arthur.

Most of this was paraphrased from MEDIEVAL WARLORDS by Tim Newark.

Nyn,

The book states that John Lamb was payed 20 English pounds from the English court and a sum of 522 iveres 10 sous from the English government in Bordeaux.

Malice
User ID: 1759784 Jun 21st 5:20 PM
I'm a little lost. LindaElane, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Llywelyn the Last had three brothers: Owain Goch (the Red), *Rhodri*, and Dafydd. Their father was Gruffydd, whose father was Llywelyn Fawr (the Great), whose father was Iorwerth.

Rhodri's son Owain was mentioned by Nynaeve.

Am I right? Am I reiterating? Or what?

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 21st 11:28 PM
Son of Hot Pie, I am becoming convinced the author of your book has merged the two Owains. The one you describe as the Welsh Arthur (though I personally believe Arthur was Welsh or close to it) waiting in a cave to lead his people to freedom is no doubt Owain Glyndwr. The only thing is, we don't know how he died, or even if, in the legend, before entering this cave. It is a historical fact that there are no stories in the present day dated from Glyndwr's age which tell of his death, instead, he simply disappeared.

Owain Goch, Llewelyn the Last's brother, died about 100 years before the 1378 date you mention. Owain Glendwr disappeared about 1412. I still think he is the only Welsh person who is fabled to be coming back some day.

Yes, Llewellyn the Last had three brothers, Owain, Dafydd and Rhodri. I don't find much mention of Rhodri in history.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jun 22nd 0:22 AM
LE and Nyn,

Are there different interpretations of either Owain or do the sources agree?

Right now, I'm wondering b/c he lists sources in the back. Offhand, there are five sources listed. I can give the names if that would help any.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 22nd 9:12 PM
It might help. I would say that there are probably three separate Owains under discussion here since the death (or disappearance) dates are so different for each of them. However, I am certain there is not Welsh Owain other than Glyndwr who is rumored in folk tales to be coming back. No source could be accurate in stating that "The Welsh Arthur died in 1378". So, my theory at present is that your author has gotten his Owain's mixed up.

Rhodri's son Owen had to have been born much too early to have died in 1378.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jun 24th 1:26 AM
LE,

Here they are:

OWEN OF WALES

Jean Froissart, CHRONICLES (written towards the end of the 14th century and gathered from first hand witnesses. Several translations).

Davies, J.H. "Owen Lawgoch-Yevain de Galles", MONTGOMERYSHIRE COLLECTIONS, vol. 37, pp.233-256, Oswestry, 1915

Owen, E., "Yevain de Galles; some facts and suggestions", MONTGOMERYSHIRE COLLECTIONS, vol. 36, pp.144-216, Oswestry, 1912.

Rhys, Professor, "Welsh Dave Legends and the story of Owen Lawgoch", MONTGOMERYSHIRE COLLECTIONS, vol.36, pp.141-144, Oswestry, 1912.

Anderson, R.C., OARED FIGHTING SHIPS, London, 1962.

Anderson, R.C. THE SAILING SHIP, London, 1926.

LE,

He seems to have a variety of sources rather than just one author. If you don't agree with his findings, do you have a better and more authentic book on the subject?

Thanks.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 24th 12:38 PM
Ahhhhhhh........Owain LawGoch......found him. He was a descendent of Llewllyn Fawr, just as Llewellyn the Last was. It is probable that he descended through Gryffudd, the illegitimate son, just like Llewellyn the last. He was a predecessor of Owain Glyndwr, who was from a different royal line, and led Welsh rebellions in the 1370s. He was indeed betrayed and murdered in 1378. Welsh poetry of the time did indeed compare him to Arthur. Today, he is not as well known as Owain Glyndwr, whom I believe is =the= Welsh Arthur, but these comparisons certainly were made.

I did not find the French story about his awakening and returning again, but I have no doubt of its existence. However, I am certain that when a Welsh person speaks of an Owain whom legends hold it will return, it is the more famous Owain Glyndwr, who disappeared in 1412. They name all sorts of Welsh nationalists things after that fellow.

Malice
User ID: 1759784 Jun 24th 10:43 PM
{About Richard III, a topic previously brought up on the "Homages" board...my apologies for popping in....}

Perhaps I'm not as knowledgable as you, labor, but in Richard's defence here's what I have to say.

Most people were rather fed up with the Wydvilles at any rate, and both Edward, Prince of Wales and Richard, Duke of York were often in the charge of Elizabeth's relatives, and under their influence. And not many truly wanted a child king.

I'm a lurking member of the Wars of the Roses mailing list at onelist, now egroups, and I am given to understand that a major reason that Richard's rise to power was not happily accepted was because of the power that he had in the North. Lancaster land, which Richard had been placed in control of after the wars. Apparently, Edward (his brother) recognized his patience and ability and believed that Richard could deal with the Lancastrians reasonably. And he did. He was much loved in the North; public records dared, even after Henry Tudor became king, to say that he was "through great treason piteously slain much to the heaviness of [the city of York]."

The Londoners didn't love the North. Richard brought with him many lower-ranking knights and such, and appointed ministers who were considered rather foreign. (You'll remember, "The Cat, the Rat, and Lovell our Dog, Rule all England under a Hog"?)

This pissed the Londoners off. ;)

Just to reiterate a tad (I do a lot of this, eh?):

- His nephews, Edward and Richard (and all of Edward IV's kids), were declared illegitimate by the Titulus Regius.
- Edward of Clarence and Margaret (George's kids) had the Bill of Attainder writ up against them.

When you look at it this way, there does seem a lack of motive for the killings. Richard III didn't kill Edward, Clarence's son. Henry Tudor had him executed, on "trumped up" charges of treason. His son (Henry VIII, of 6 wives fame) had Margaret executed, on some more "trumped up" charges of treason.

Then of course there are those very intriguing stories about Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck (Perkin was executed by Tudor, by the way)...

Hwyl,
Malice

Street Prophet
User ID: 1307164 Jun 25th 1:17 AM
Whoa, the children were killed by a James TYREL?!! And then Henry Tudor pinned the murder on Richard III? Does anybody get any chills from the recent entrance of the Tyrells and the similarity between Richard III and Tyrion? Also I can't help but think these historical figures inspired these characters.
Henry VIII - Robert Baratheon
Cromwell - Stannis Baratheon
Richard III - Tyrion Lannister
William the Conqueror - Jon Snow. William the Conqueror was known as William the Bastard before he got an entire army behind him.
I have no clue who Daenerys is based on. Any ideas?
And I heard an interesting theory that Alfred the Great might be the inspiration for Robb Stark. He was the one who hid in the marshes (or so I heard) before he ousted the Vikings (or was it the Danes?) from England. Well, anyone want to add/detract from my ravings?

Son of Hot Pie!!
User ID: 0276214 Jun 25th 2:45 AM
Street,

I believe it was the Danes.

Interesting enough, Alfred the Great almost joined the clergy. At the last minute, he found out that his brother had died and he was obligated to take the throne.

TIMEFRAME claims that he was the only English monarch who received "the Great" to his name.

Remember, THE SEED IS STRONG, BABY!!!

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jun 14th 0:30 AM Thought it was over for good, didn't you? :) Anyway, I have a few questions: One for Nyn, What did you think of Owen of Wales, grandson of Rhodri ap Gruffydd? Apparently, this book I was reading . . . MEDIEVAL WARLORDS . . . said that his lineage was disbelieved by some. Anyway, he went off to fight for France and other countries . . . and when opportunities arose, he always fought against England. Like his great uncle, he too was assassinated by the English. I'll put my next question in the following message.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jun 14th 0:56 AM Next question . . . what were the general legal rights and punishments between lords, freemen, clergy and peasantry? I'm somewhat familiar with the chilvaric code where the nobles were to protect the peasantry, who worked the land in return and followed the laws. If the latter broke them, they suffered harsh punishment . . . perhaps even cruel or evil by our standards today. But, I was under the impression that applied only in England, after the Magna Carta in 1215 A.D., and the northern territories of France (the most chivalric during the mid middle ages). What about in other parts of western and eastern Europe? Just read over a young adults book called MEN IN ARMOR, which is pretty informative for its target audience. There was a section on tribal justice (but this was a few decades after the fall of the western Roman Empire in 476 A.D.) which listed various laws . . . (1) COMPURGATION (basically, the number of people to stand up and say that you were in the right for an accussed crime . . . was evidence or character taken into account? Probably not): interesting that nobles needed far less compurgators than a peasant who was charged by a noble or harmed a nobles. Not surprising certainly. Example: noble accused of killing a peasant needed ONLY 11 compurgators; vice versa, the peasant, who murdered a noble, needed 35. Seems like bribery and threats would come into play here (for those who had the power and will). (2) ORDEAL (by fire and water): self explanatory, I believe. Any chance of cheating in either of these (for those familiar with the procedures)? (3) WAGER OF BATTLE: we saw this in AGOT with Tyrion . . . you could choose your champion, too. Of course, it didn't really ask the question of what if you chose a champion who would take weeks or months to get there? Was it acceptable or did it apply on the ruler's territory? Also, could a knight, who knew the accuser would easily hack him to bits, get a champion? And, if so, how much would it disgrace or affect him? (4) WERGELD: introduced by the barbarians also . . . a system of paying for wounds by fines in order to avoid blood feuds. Anyway, anyone who can answer these questions . . . much appreciated. Even better, any books or websites that you can point me to that would go into more details would be very helpful. Remember, THE SEED IS OH SO STRONG!!!
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jun 14th 1:01 AM P.S. Ran, I located Ross' WARS OF THE ROSES: A CONCISE HISTORY . . . thanks.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 9983153	Jun 16th 2:24 PM What? No takers? Can no one answer these illustrious questions? :) Remember, THE SEED IS STRONG!!!!
Malice User ID: 1759784	Jun 16th 8:35 PM Ok, I'll have a try at these then. Which Owain of Wales do you mean (you did get as descriptive as possible by naming is grandsire--,Rhodri ap Gruffydd ap Llywelyn (Fawr), is it?--so I'm just clueless)? Alas, I need my Oxford book of British kings and queens beside me (and I lent it to a friend). It would be wonderful if Nynaeve popped in. ;)
Nynaeve User ID: 2345204	Jun 19th 2:26 PM Helloooo! I've been in Austin since Thursday! Ah, the loveliness.... Anyway, I assume you are talking about Owain the latter as opposed to Owain Fawr? Well, I admit I don't know much about him. But I, too, question his lineage. I doubt Edward I would have left him running about. All the legitimate scions of the House of Gwynedd were assasinated, executed, starved to death or imprisoned. However, there was talk of him being from a bastard line. Nynnie :)
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jun 19th 6:19 PM Nynnie, :) I was trying to get H.W. Koch's MEDIEVAL WARFARE and the dealer made a mistake, sending me MEDIEVAL WARLORDS. Mostly a compilation of somewhat known warlords from early to late medieval times. I believe his name here is Owen Glyndwr . . . grandson of Rhodri ap Gruffyd, who is listed here as serving the English King, Edward I (Longshanks to some in BRAVEHEART). Historian's argue as to his legitimacy. This book seems to support that he is of such stock. Owen of Wales (as he's called in this book) was betrayed by a fellow Welsh exile named John Lamb. Lamb became his servant and plunged a javelin into his back one day. Remember, THE SEED IS STRONG!!!
Malice User ID: 1759784	Jun 19th 11:52 PM That Owain! (I'm not even sure there was the other one that I suggested...) Don't know much about this. Mean fellow, Lamb. Blech.
Nynaeve User ID: 2345204	Jun 20th 8:18 PM OH!!!!!! Glendower!!!!!! Glyndwr! I'm currently reading "The Revolution of Owain GlynDwr" by RR Davies. Hell yes! No, he has no connection to the House of Gwynedd. His royal lines come from the Southern Welsh princes. His rebellion lasted approx 14 years, really the meet of it 1400-1409. No one knows for certain where he disappeared to, how he died. I've never heard the Lamb/javelin thing. Bizarre. Anyway, he makes an comical appearance in Shakespeare "When I was born there were tremors in the vasty deep..." I think it's an interesting portrait in time. HIs revolt was the last major rebellion against the English. He's still legendary among the people and I had a chance to visit Machynlleth - the seat of his first Independent Parliament. The place was near-shambles. The British Trust refuses to take care of it with there TONS of money...guess why? Whatever! Anyway, Rhodri ap Gryffyd was a brother to Llyweln Olaf - the Last - and apparently had a son named Owain. I had believed him to be murdered or in captivity. Thus the confusion... Nyn
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 20th 10:10 PM I traced the geneology of Llewellyn the Last today. All the way down to Henry Tudor, and we know where it went from there. I just could not sort out the Welsh Warrior question, I rear. I stil think it likely Son of Hot Pie is looking at a different Owain. Thats becaues Owain most definitely disappeared in 1412 never to be heard of again. Many scholars believe he went to live with his daughter, and in the village where his daughter lives the folk will tell you a horse was kept saddled day and night just in case he needed to flee. IIRC, Llewellyn the Last had two brothers, Owain and Dafydd. Their father, Gryffudd, was the illegitimate son of Llewellyn the Great. His father's name was Rhodri. So, if you are looking for an "illegitimate" Owain, grandson of Rhodri, it could be this guy, Owain Goch (the red)
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jun 21st 0:14 AM LE, That may be the one. After he died, Welsh poets created myths about him. He was called Owen Lawgoch: Owen of the Red Hand, or Owen the Outlaw. His death was about 1378 but . . . in France they believed he slept in a cave w/ his followers awaiting the bell of destiny to lead him forth to conquer the English and win back the land of his forefathers. In Welsh minds, Owen became another Arthur. Most of this was paraphrased from MEDIEVAL WARLORDS by Tim Newark. Nyn, The book states that John Lamb was payed 20 English pounds from the English court and a sum of 522 iveres 10 sous from the English government in Bordeaux.
Malice User ID: 1759784	Jun 21st 5:20 PM I'm a little lost. LindaElane, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Llywelyn the Last had three brothers: Owain Goch (the Red), Rhodri, and Dafydd. Their father was Gruffydd, whose father was Llywelyn Fawr (the Great), whose father was Iorwerth. Rhodri's son Owain was mentioned by Nynaeve. Am I right? Am I reiterating? Or what?
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 21st 11:28 PM Son of Hot Pie, I am becoming convinced the author of your book has merged the two Owains. The one you describe as the Welsh Arthur (though I personally believe Arthur was Welsh or close to it) waiting in a cave to lead his people to freedom is no doubt Owain Glyndwr. The only thing is, we don't know how he died, or even if, in the legend, before entering this cave. It is a historical fact that there are no stories in the present day dated from Glyndwr's age which tell of his death, instead, he simply disappeared. Owain Goch, Llewelyn the Last's brother, died about 100 years before the 1378 date you mention. Owain Glendwr disappeared about 1412. I still think he is the only Welsh person who is fabled to be coming back some day. Yes, Llewellyn the Last had three brothers, Owain, Dafydd and Rhodri. I don't find much mention of Rhodri in history.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jun 22nd 0:22 AM LE and Nyn, Are there different interpretations of either Owain or do the sources agree? Right now, I'm wondering b/c he lists sources in the back. Offhand, there are five sources listed. I can give the names if that would help any.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 22nd 9:12 PM It might help. I would say that there are probably three separate Owains under discussion here since the death (or disappearance) dates are so different for each of them. However, I am certain there is not Welsh Owain other than Glyndwr who is rumored in folk tales to be coming back. No source could be accurate in stating that "The Welsh Arthur died in 1378". So, my theory at present is that your author has gotten his Owain's mixed up. Rhodri's son Owen had to have been born much too early to have died in 1378.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jun 24th 1:26 AM LE, Here they are: OWEN OF WALES Jean Froissart, CHRONICLES (written towards the end of the 14th century and gathered from first hand witnesses. Several translations). Davies, J.H. "Owen Lawgoch-Yevain de Galles", MONTGOMERYSHIRE COLLECTIONS, vol. 37, pp.233-256, Oswestry, 1915 Owen, E., "Yevain de Galles; some facts and suggestions", MONTGOMERYSHIRE COLLECTIONS, vol. 36, pp.144-216, Oswestry, 1912. Rhys, Professor, "Welsh Dave Legends and the story of Owen Lawgoch", MONTGOMERYSHIRE COLLECTIONS, vol.36, pp.141-144, Oswestry, 1912. Anderson, R.C., OARED FIGHTING SHIPS, London, 1962. Anderson, R.C. THE SAILING SHIP, London, 1926. LE, He seems to have a variety of sources rather than just one author. If you don't agree with his findings, do you have a better and more authentic book on the subject? Thanks.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 24th 12:38 PM Ahhhhhhh........Owain LawGoch......found him. He was a descendent of Llewllyn Fawr, just as Llewellyn the Last was. It is probable that he descended through Gryffudd, the illegitimate son, just like Llewellyn the last. He was a predecessor of Owain Glyndwr, who was from a different royal line, and led Welsh rebellions in the 1370s. He was indeed betrayed and murdered in 1378. Welsh poetry of the time did indeed compare him to Arthur. Today, he is not as well known as Owain Glyndwr, whom I believe is =the= Welsh Arthur, but these comparisons certainly were made. I did not find the French story about his awakening and returning again, but I have no doubt of its existence. However, I am certain that when a Welsh person speaks of an Owain whom legends hold it will return, it is the more famous Owain Glyndwr, who disappeared in 1412. They name all sorts of Welsh nationalists things after that fellow.
Malice User ID: 1759784	Jun 24th 10:43 PM {About Richard III, a topic previously brought up on the "Homages" board...my apologies for popping in....} Perhaps I'm not as knowledgable as you, labor, but in Richard's defence here's what I have to say. Most people were rather fed up with the Wydvilles at any rate, and both Edward, Prince of Wales and Richard, Duke of York were often in the charge of Elizabeth's relatives, and under their influence. And not many truly wanted a child king. I'm a lurking member of the Wars of the Roses mailing list at onelist, now egroups, and I am given to understand that a major reason that Richard's rise to power was not happily accepted was because of the power that he had in the North. Lancaster land, which Richard had been placed in control of after the wars. Apparently, Edward (his brother) recognized his patience and ability and believed that Richard could deal with the Lancastrians reasonably. And he did. He was much loved in the North; public records dared, even after Henry Tudor became king, to say that he was "through great treason piteously slain much to the heaviness of [the city of York]." The Londoners didn't love the North. Richard brought with him many lower-ranking knights and such, and appointed ministers who were considered rather foreign. (You'll remember, "The Cat, the Rat, and Lovell our Dog, Rule all England under a Hog"?) This pissed the Londoners off. ;) Just to reiterate a tad (I do a lot of this, eh?): - His nephews, Edward and Richard (and all of Edward IV's kids), were declared illegitimate by the Titulus Regius. - Edward of Clarence and Margaret (George's kids) had the Bill of Attainder writ up against them. When you look at it this way, there does seem a lack of motive for the killings. Richard III didn't kill Edward, Clarence's son. Henry Tudor had him executed, on "trumped up" charges of treason. His son (Henry VIII, of 6 wives fame) had Margaret executed, on some more "trumped up" charges of treason. Then of course there are those very intriguing stories about Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck (Perkin was executed by Tudor, by the way)... Hwyl, Malice
Street Prophet User ID: 1307164	Jun 25th 1:17 AM Whoa, the children were killed by a James TYREL?!! And then Henry Tudor pinned the murder on Richard III? Does anybody get any chills from the recent entrance of the Tyrells and the similarity between Richard III and Tyrion? Also I can't help but think these historical figures inspired these characters. Henry VIII - Robert Baratheon Cromwell - Stannis Baratheon Richard III - Tyrion Lannister William the Conqueror - Jon Snow. William the Conqueror was known as William the Bastard before he got an entire army behind him. I have no clue who Daenerys is based on. Any ideas? And I heard an interesting theory that Alfred the Great might be the inspiration for Robb Stark. He was the one who hid in the marshes (or so I heard) before he ousted the Vikings (or was it the Danes?) from England. Well, anyone want to add/detract from my ravings?
Son of Hot Pie!! User ID: 0276214	Jun 25th 2:45 AM Street, I believe it was the Danes. Interesting enough, Alfred the Great almost joined the clergy. At the last minute, he found out that his brother had died and he was obligated to take the throne. TIMEFRAME claims that he was the only English monarch who received "the Great" to his name. Remember, THE SEED IS STRONG, BABY!!!