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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / GRRM vs. Robert Jordan, II

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calenth
User ID: 2525954 		Feb 10th 3:55 PM
I read over the thread below and have a thing or two to say.

I've been reading Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time since 1989. I started reading A Song of Ice and Fire solely on Robert Jordan's recommendation.

Most of the above criticisms are valid. RJ's books have gotten too lengthy, his female characters are a bit tightly drawn, and there are numerous other small flaws (no more braid pulling! please!)

That said . .when Eye of the World came out, and even when The Great Hunt came out, RJ did not intend to take the series past six books either.

Trust me, there are things in ASOIAF that will get just as annoying after six books as Nynaeve's braid-pulling did after 8.


The primary difference between the two of them is one of tone: GRRM has a far darker tone, while RJ keeps things less "stark" -- the most obvious example I can think of being the raping of Mirri Maaz Duur over a pile of corpses.

GRRM's main virtues are an ability to make the reader identify with characters and an ability to make the reader doubt his good intentions. He's got a great writing style and a magnificent hand with pacing. RJ can do these things too, but no one really thinks Moiraine is dead, for example.

RJ's main virtues are an ability to write extremely complex plot 'puzzles' (via prophecy etc.) and the ability to create magnificently dramatic, cinematic "scenes" -- such as Rand seizing Callandor, the Alcair Dal, Dumai's Wells, etc. GRRM can do these things also; but they play a larger role in Jordan's work, and RJ's scenes have more 'motive force" in them (in my opinion.)

GRRM does not handle POV as effectively as Jordan does -- RJ is much better at seamlessly changing between points of view, at utilizing shifts in point of view to create and manage tension in a scene, and in general is more flexible with the device than GRRM is (at least in ASOIAF.) Jordan is also much better at *introducing* characters than GRRM is .. frequently with GRRM, the characters don't stick in my head (who is Mace Tyrell, exactly? oh yeah, that guy . .lemme check. . ) and I find that I have to reread passages and check glossaries to determine exactly who someone is. .a problem that I never have with Jordan. This problem goes away as the story gets underway, but it does exist with initial character introductions.


I guess the main thing I want to say is: most of the comparisons I see on this board are premature. Compare just Eye of the World and The Great Hunt to what we have so far of ASOIAF, and it's a very close run, with maybe WOT ending out on top even. Don't say RJ is worse than GRRM due to lengthiness until GRRM has pumped out more than the first third of his series.

Otherwise. . . what stylistic things are good and bad about the two authors? what virtues do they each possess? We already know jordan's longer. .let's go a little deeper than that. Is one better at foreshadowing? at drama? at comic relief? Is one author's take on magic better or worse than another's? Is either one better at "world-building" or at creating setting in general? So on, so forth . .
labor
User ID: 0798784 		Feb 10th 5:41 PM
Well, Jordan also uses deus ex machina quite extensively, even in the first two books. In fact, after tEoTW, most of his "character developement" heavily depends on it.
I.e. Rand beating the Forsaken on his third channeling, being held for a lord just because people tend to completely misunderstand and misconstrue everything he says or does (later the same happens with Mat and Perrrin), Rand beating a blademaster etc. I'd say ta'verenness, ta'verennes and more of same ad nauseum.

Yes, a saviour does need a bit of extra luck, but it is a device Jordan uses ever more heavily and not only for all 3 boys, but for the girls as well, although there it doesn't get a special name. One slowly begins to think that the main characters don't have any free will whatsoever.

Also, all of the Fortellings duly come true. What I like about GRRM (among other things) is that his don't, not automatically. The stallion who will mount the world can be murdered in his mother's womb, etc.

2 against 2 I'd still choose Martin. Thom should have died... After he didn't it become clear that the main characters and even the halfway important secondary ones are invulnerable.

Also, all of the Jordan's main male characters are terribly whiny - I mean, the 3x "reluctant hero" act is too much. I can sympathize with Rand, but Perrin and especially Mat come through as spoiled brats in the first books. They need lots of magic gimmicks to convince/force them to accept their responsibility like men.

Concerning GRRM's 6 books instead of 3 - IIRC he said that the fans can shoot him if series becomes any longer than 6 ;) ;) ;). Also, I strongly suspect that the main "extension" plot is the detailed civil war in the Seven kingdoms, which I certainly enjoy. GRRM only had to slow Dany's plot a bit (IMHO) to make room for it.

I guess that originally the 5-6 year long gap would have occured in the middle of the second book and Dany would have come to Westeros after that. No Quarth, probably. IIRC, GRRM said somewhere that he didn't expect to write from children's POVs for so long or something to that effect.
One fine day, we might learn the truth...
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Feb 10th 6:06 PM
Mrm. I don't agree. :)

First, about the POV. Jordan has fewer chapters, which let him sprawl through characters rather more. Martin, who packs something over twice the chapters as Jordan in each book, moves with a tighter, more focused drive towards the plot. He paints the picture of the characters very thoroughly, but he doesn't really dote on 'em (as Jordan has done lately.)

EotW is very well-written, I admit. Jordan had it rather tight. The second book felt rather aimless, on the other hand -- I forgot much of it -- while the third book wavered between tight and loose in its plotting.

So, being able to measure those two-three books against Martin, I think I'd have to say that Martin's got the lead. Admittedly, part is personal preference -- many people don't like so many POVs and so much intercutting. For my part, it adds to the atmosphere, keeping the pace flowing without moving things to a crawl as we spend thirty or forty pages on one characters troubles.

As to introducing ... hrm. How many characters did EotW have? How many did AGoT has? I know that, by now, I barely remember a tenth of the characters in WoT. But that's a lot of books.

In the first book ... much tighter. I admit, pretty much all the Emmon Fielders are forgotten. But ... thinking it through, EotW definently has _far_ fewer characters running around than _AGoT_. EotW gives you this little group of people moving through a dangerous world, _AGoT_ presents a living, breathing world full of familiar servants and acquaintances and famed knights and all manner of things.

The names flash by because, well, they're there -- they give atmosphere, support, to the world. But they're set dressing, so to speak. Although the deaths of some of that "set dressing" -- particularly in Winterfell at the end of _A Clash of Kings_ -- certainly worked very well. Just as some of the deaths of certain Aiel who make only brief appearances works effectively (was it _Lord of Chaos_ which has Rand hang an Aiel for killing a man? Or _A Crown of Swords_? That was a well-written bit.)

So far, I haven't identified anything in Martin which will prove an annoyance in the same way as sniffing, stout shoes/women/cloth/etc., braid-tugging, '<Insert character name> could handle this situation. He always had a way with women,' and so on goes.

Complexity ... hrm. Different strokes for different folks. I was quickly bored with trying to interpret various prophecies and Dreams and Viewings. Too long-range, too "distant." It's now more, 'Spot the prophecy fulfillment' rather than, 'What does this prophecy mean?'

At least for me. Different strokes. Martin, on the other hand -- well, folk know how involved I've been in discussing the machinations of Varys and Littlefinger and various mysterious events. And even some of the prophecies -- for some reason, they feel more immediate. Probably because they're coming _now_, rather than having been done a thousand or four thousand years ago.

Much of this is incredibly subjective, of course. Right now, Martin's head and shoulders above Jordan for me -- even comparing two books to two books. I'm quite interested in medievalia, so the setting is just to my taste.

The atmosphere, the grayness of character, all works. Jordan's setting is closer to a Renaissance (guys working on steam power, gunpowder not far away for military use, and such) and there's very little in the way of gray characters. There are the good -- who might have to make some tough, grayesque decisions -- and the bad -- who are sometimes relatively good, one way or the other, but their methods fall to the gray.

I'm really scratching my brain, and I can't really find anything close to a gray character in WoT. I could be missing someone. Probably am. But one has to admit a sincere lack. The closest to gray, I suppose, are those characters who don't really know what's going on and just do their thing ignorantly without realizing the cost of it.

Now, the questions .. I'd give about all to Martin, save world-building -- it's not really his focus, though he puts in a very commendable effort. Certainly, people are filled with questions about things. But maybe not as much as with Jordan.

On the other hand, I admit that Jordan seems to have a certain blandness -- wildly disparate cultural norms, yet language is pretty much the same all around. It's Eddings, just better -- here you have the hot, fiery duelling men and women, and here you have the pseudo-Greeks who speak funny, and there's the puritans, and over there is the generic fantasy realm, and here are the samurai, and never shall the twain-to-the-Nth-power meet.

Oh, magic ... hrm ... Well, Jordan has certainly made his complex and worked it out. But, I'm not impressed overly much by big magic systems. Martin's select use of it has, so far, impressed me more.

But, you know, very subjective. I prefer him. I'm mostly certain I'd prefer him if I had just started Jordan and had read only two of the books so far, as well.
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Feb 11th 1:18 PM
I thought that the first two-thirds of the TEoTW was very good. The rest was average at best, IMHO, as there were just too many plot contrivances to suit my taste. It takes Rand and his crew two-thirds of the book to travel less than half of their journey. Then, it seemed like Jordan thought things were going too slowly so he invents a magical means of traveling great distances and poof, we're in the North. Blight was interesting, but tehn we get to the supposed climax of the story only to find out that it was really a false climax -- that the struggle is just beginning.

The second book is almost a completely different story from the first. The focus is a Horn about which we heard virtually nothing in the first book. A true precurser of RJ's pattern of adding subplots to lengthen the story -- as with the Bowl of Winds or whatever the hell it was called.

In contrast, ACOK simply continued the basic storyline from AGOT. Sure, we met new characters, such as Stannis, but they at least were characters we had known of previously and whom we had been told would play a major part. The books flowed together naturally.
Omer
User ID: 9551723 		Feb 11th 4:38 PM
OK, first the REALLY subjective part. I started The Eye of the world in english. the I found out that it existed in hebrew. I borrowed it from a friend and liked it. I borrowed/bought the next few books, and bitching about lots of things, but did enjoy it. When I read LORD OF CHAOS I thought WOW, finally a good WOT book( I still think its the best) but with A Crown of swords it was back to all the faults of pre LOC WoT. Path of Daggers was out in english, but I did NOT wish to try it( I can read quite fast in english, but I am still more selective of what I read in english then of what I read in Hebrew)

Then I bought LEGENDS. I read it more or less in order. The Hedge Knight blew me away. I still wasn't going to buy A Game of Thrones. I THOUGHT about it often, but I wasn't sure I wanted to start a series of books each six hunder some pages long, of which only a third was out.

Then it appeared in Hebrew. I bought it, read it in what was one of the best weeks of my life( I saw an incredible concert and bought some incredible records at the same time :-). In no time, I bought ACOK in English. I finished it in 5 days.

Since then I've read lots of other things by Martin, while I've never been inclined to read anything by Jordan. In fact, IU haven't even read A Path of Daggers when it came out in Hebrew. I may read it if someone will truly recommand the next book, but I doubt it.

OK, now comparisons:

POV use: I think Martin uses POV in one of the most capable manners I've ever seen. By starting each chapter with the character name, I know immidiately where I am. While reading ACOK, I cheered whenever a Tyrion chapter arrived.
(I was also practically shouting with glee when Tyrion lannister arrived in the middle of Sansa's chapter... but that's a different subject)

Will the series irritate me in the ourth, fifth and sixth volume? I think not. granted, my expectations are enormously high, and I'm a VERY critical person, but I'm confident in Martin's ability to deliver another masterpiece.
Also, Martin has written short fiction many times before. He is not someone to use a tree where a leaf would suffice - each and every one of Martin's words is important, while with Jordan you can skip pages and see little has changed.
(that's true about the first book as well)

What about Grand scenes? When Jordan tries, he can write some powerfulm huge scenes( such as the one at the end of LOC) but those scenes require emotional link to the scene, and a genuine interest in what's going on. Jordan isn't very good with these.

Martin, on the other hand, create tension, constantly accelerating the situation. Consider Tyrion's part in ACOK. First, he arrives. Then he meets with Varys and Cersei. As the pages to your right become fewer and those to your left multiply, the confrontations become more and more dangerous, more and more private. The events in the city acclerate as well. Startin with a changing of the guards, through a city riot and into a full scale war.

OK, I think I've spent enough words explaining to those who are already convinced why Martin is such a terrific writer.

Calenth
User ID: 2525954 		Feb 11th 10:20 PM
oh, I agree that Martin is a very good writer
(i'm posting here, aren't I?), and in the end it comes down to personal preference.

I just personally find Robert Jordan's use of point of view more fluid. . . I never really have a problem determining whose viewpoint I'm reading from, and seeing parts of an event from a variety of viewpoints is an effect I like to read.

I think both authors are good at creating a "connection" with characters in the story, at creating an emotional connection with the work; again, I think it comes down to personal preference ( I know several people who find almost all of GRRM's characters "repulsive" due to his what-they-consider-excessive use of brutal and .well .."stark" depiction (the woman getting raped on the pile of corpses in ACOK is my personal classic example of this. Don't get me wrong. .I like it. .but a lot of people don't.)

As to importance of individual words and passages. . .if you take the time to read closely, Very little of Jordan's work is fluff (i'd even say 'none.") Whereas GRRM favors a more linear narrative style, where action A leads to reaction B to Event C and so forth -- the building of tension as described above -- Jordan spends a lot more time creating misdirection and foreshadowing, creating a complex and extremely intricate "pattern" of events. There's a lot more time spent on world-building, on letting us know (or giving us hints) as to what happened or what will happened to a given character 5 or 30 or 3000 years in the past or future, and on other similar things. Of course, if your taste doesn't run to complex narrative referential puzzles, then that may be "fluff" to you, certainly, and that's a perfectly valid criticism. But that doesn't mean it's poor writing.

A good example I'll take is mentioned above (somewhere, might be in the first thread on this.) -- the Horn of Valere. It's mentioned directly in several places (Thom talks about the Great Hunt being called in Illian, and is asked at several inns and at Emond's Field to tell the story of the Great Hunt of the Horn) and indirectly in others (Min sees a horn in Mat's "aura", etc.) To a reader who really enjoys taking a book apart like a puzzle, it's going to be obvious that the Horn is going to be a major part of the series. To someone who doesn't read a book in that manner, it's not going to be as heavily implied.


As to the charge of Deus Ex Machina Ta'verenness. . . this is a pretty valid charge, esp. after the 8th book. My primary response is that, as RJ once stated, the primary idea behind the WoT is to explore "what it really means to wake up one morning and find out that you're the guy who has to save the world," far more than it is to be the story where the hero cleverly defeats lots of assassination attempts. The Ta'veren device is more meant to show characters reacting to certain knowledge of their own "fated" status than anything else . . .it's not as much a "get out of jail free" card for the characters as it is a term the characters have for their own status as puppets of the story; a literary term used by characters in literature to describe themselves.


All that said. .GRRM is certainly a damn fine writer, and there are some things he does much better than Jordan does ( female characterization springs to mind, as does graphic realism.) I just expected to see a lot more jordan fans on this board, I suppose. . .after all, the two series are far more similar than they are different, and most Robert Jordan fans I know like George RR Martin's work (including, as the cover of AGOT so boldly states, RJ himself.)
Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 		Feb 12th 2:53 AM
Bravo. Bravo. Calenth, your last two posts were great. You're all aware that Martin is Jordan right?

ab

Couldn't resist bringing raising that one from the dead.
Richie
User ID: 9816503 		Apr 17th 8:52 AM
Comparing between RJ and GRRM at this point is unfair. Even comparing book 1 & 2 from both series would be unfair.

Jordan unfolds his story as it comes along. Imagine a river upstream and slowly flowing downstream. Initially, you had litle to deal with, but as time progressed, your river has reached the mouth, and is flowing into the sea. The skill would be then, how he wraps up the story. Will the sea hit a brick wall, or will we see a vortex?

GRRM hits the ground running. There does not seem to be much time for contemplation. He is all action, and very 'tight' in his story lines.

So here is the comparison:

RJ writes a complex weave and some people cannot appreciate the storyline spread too thin. GRRM will have intense stories, but how long can he keep it up? We have a long distance runner (can be boring) and a sprinter (will get tired if he runs too long).

I love both TEoTH and ASoIaF, but I have not read anything else by either author. In this respect, I still would rate RJ a little higher than GRRM.

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 		Apr 17th 3:02 PM
Richie, I thank you for your faith in Jordan. Whether he is better than Martin is based on opinion. Just like in movies, the big money makers and/or the big award winners, aren't always the best. You'll probably get blasted by a lot of people her for your post, espeically since you've only read 1 book only from each author.

I'll say that you are correct in that Jordans story is more complex, and has a much wider scope. Martins story is great too, but it is a bit more concentrated in it's storyline (ie not as much land, not as much detail of the land, few urban meccas, fewer noted characters, smaller armies. etc.... ).

Of course, they are the same person. ha ha ha hah

ab
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Apr 17th 3:27 PM
Fewer ... noted characters? ;) There's a lot of characters. ;)

Richie
User ID: 9816503 		Apr 18th 7:03 AM
Dirjj: I have read the whole series for both authors, numerous times. I must have read TWoT 6 times, and am going through ASoIaF the third. But these two series would be the only thing I read from these two authors unless otherwise recomended. I love RJ, but I do not think I could read the Conan books. And I do not know of any other GRRM books that have recieved notable mention by his fans.

Ran: There are a lot of characters, but I fel I do not know them as well as Jordan's characters. If I were any good at drawing, I could probably draw every main character in TWoT. I probably could not do it yet with ASoIaF. But then again, there are only two books to go by. RJ has eight....

:)
Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 		Apr 18th 7:26 AM
Richie,

One of my biggest pet peeves with regard to WOT was that too many of the characters began to act too much alike. It didn't happen right away, but it seemed to happen over time. I felt that was especially true of the females, and I really like nicely-developed female characters (take that anyway you want :)

All of the main characters appeared to become mroe and more irritating with each successive book. It reached the point where I didn't like any of them anymore, and I was hard-pressed about who to root for. That's a real problem for me.

Martin's characters, on the other hand, all have very distinct backgrounds, personalities and roles. Even the bit players. I find that intriguing, and for me it makes the read so much more enjoyable. That's my opinion, anyway :)

Richie
User ID: 9816503 		Apr 18th 8:28 AM
Ser Gary,

Think about how you felt when you first read TEoTW and TGH. The characters wre quite distinct then. And you have yet to discover them. That is the same situation with ASoIaF.

Secondly, Randland has a lot of nations and each nation has its general ethics, behaviour and so on. That narrows RJ's character behaviour because the chars have to play the role of their nationality. GRRM generally has two nations of great concern: The mainland and the horse nation (sorry, but I can't recall the nation names of the top of my head). True that there are seven kingdoms, but all the kindoms generally have the same behaviour, but different allegiance.

Thirdly, my analogy to your "more and more irritating" chars is like a budding relationship. When a couple first meets, they are in love. Then they get to the point where their irrespective habits irritate each other. If they get over that, their love remains and they get married. If it does not, then bye bye.

I am terribly biased because I am already beyond the irritation stage. I am already in love with the chars and the storyline in TWoT

I am just begining to fall in love with the chars in ASoIaF. I do not know them that well yet. Even now, I can imagine thinking from Rand/Perrin/Aviendha/and so on's mind, but I cannot say I can do it from Bran/Tyrion/Arya yet. Gimme a couple more books, and I think I would feel the same.

Deviating from char dev for a while, Let me just say this:
After every WoT book, I feel a sense of hope and that good will prevail. I feel warm and cozy, and it is my escape from the world's troubles. It is very relaxing.
After the two ASoIaF books, I feel a struggle. I am deeply disturbed and excited. I want to get the third book and read on. The thoughts weigh heavily on my mind. I was clearly tired after reading them.

For all the contrasts between the two series, I still love them both!

That is my two cents :)
Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 		Apr 18th 10:52 AM
Richie,

I want you to know that I really enjoyed EOTW. I very much enjoyed the next three books in WOT, too. I thought the story was wonderful, inventive, intriguing. I was hooked. I really was. But the story just became repetitive to me throughout the remaining books. The thrill was gone. None of the good people with any stature ever died, despite an inordinate number of close calls. And each book basically dealt with Ran's eventual elimination of some demi-god. Each book. They were all so predictable. I hate too much predictability. Now I find I can't even bear to continue. What happened to RJ? What happened to what might have been a great story? Because I don't think it is anymore.
Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 		Apr 18th 3:00 PM
GRRM has a lot of characters, but they're only noted in the glossary. There's actually not too many that have scenes. Most of them, we'll never even see, they're just mentioned. Come now, what are the odds of all the Freys having a line of dialogue in the book? Jordan on the other hand has his many characters out front and with lines. Maybe they don't have a lot, but you feel like you know some of them just from they're small lines. That's what I meant by more characters. Any author can make up names or a geneology of a House, but that doesn't mean he's created a lot of characters. If anything, he's only created footnotes.

ab
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Apr 18th 3:40 PM
Gosh, I could name a _lot_ of characters with lines in GRRM's book. He lists a lot, and sure, we're never going to hear a peep out of a lot of them, but I certainly don't see how it is that he's had a few characters. In case you haven't noticed, RJ names a lot of characters who never manage to say a word either. It's just that, by not providing a listing, you don't realize it.

Lets just see, quick skim of a hundred page for characters who get a speaking line in the first books of the respective series:

Gared, Waymar Royce, Will, Bran, Ned, Theon, Jon, Robb, Jory, Hullen, Harwin, Catelyn, Arya, Sansa, Dany, Viserys, Illyrio, Robert, Jaime, Cersei, Sandor, Tyrion, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Lyanna, Luwin, Benjen, Septa Mordane, Jeyne Poole, Beth Cassel, Ser Rodrik, Drogo, Jorah, Alyn, Yoren.

36 characters.

Now Jordan:

Rand, Tam, Wit Congar, Daise Congar, Bran al'Vere, Cenn Buie, Mat, Mistress al'Vere, Ewin Finngar, Moiraine, Padan Fain, Haral Luhan, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Thom, Narg.

17 characters.

I'm not sure if there's much more than fifty characters with speaking lines in EotW, and that might be rather high, all considered. There's definently more than that in GoT, though -- haven't even hit KL yet with those 100 pages, which introduces a slew of new folk off the bat, and Jon hasn't reached the Wall which does the same.
Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 		Apr 18th 3:48 PM
To me personally, it's not a matter of how many characters the author introduces or how big his world is -- what it all boils down to is his ability to hold everything together in a cohesive fashion.

So far, GRRM has managed to do that. Granted, it's only been through two books. Maybe RJ was equally successful through his first, say four, books -- but unfortunately I think his grip and his world have been unravelling. Maybe he's been rushing his books out to meet consumer demands, or maybe he and/or his publisher have just gotten downright greedy. I don't know. What I do know is that the quality has suffered over the latter part of the series. I'd love to see him get it back together, but I think his world is too far gone. That's my personal opinion, and it doesn't make me especially happy to admit it.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Apr 18th 4:08 PM
I agree about the character thing, but just wanted to point out how I viewed it.

I also think four books is kind. I came off liking TEotW quite a lot, and rushed to get a hold of TGH ... and was sorely disappointed. What a mess, with all that travelogue exposition, and the whole thing mired in some rather obvious attempts to extend things (probably after realizing that he really needed more books to get to where he wanted.)
Omer
User ID: 9551723 		Apr 26th 4:10 PM
Well, for me, a great part of the point is that Martin's a super succesful author outside of ASoIaF. He won something like 4 Hugos and 2 Nebulas, as well as a World Fantasy and a Bram Stocker award for Horror.
He's also, to the best of my knowledge the first person to win a Hugo for Epic Fantasy, with Blood of the Dragon. To me that speaks for itself: Martin's an aknowledged Master story teller, and Jordan isn't.

ACOK is a Nabula finalist. Was Jordan ever nominated?

Another point is that many, many people agree there's a drop in WoT quality - while you don't hear that about ASoIaF, and in my humble opinion you own't hear it, either.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Apr 26th 4:54 PM
Well, I won't go so far as to note whether Jordan was nominated for a Nebula or not. I don't believe he's ever made the pre-finalist short list, but I may be wrong. However, he has one thing working against him -- he's not fannish. He didn't go to cons as he worked his way up, because he really didn't work up. He sprung more or less fresh in the fantasy genre (which is bastard kin to SF, in the community, BTW -- there's a lot of SF fen, and fen who read SF and F, but very few fen who are pure fantasy readers), and so he isn't really a part of the peer community in many ways.

But the Nebula is voted by the members of the SFWA, and GRRM certainly has a great advantage over Jordan in that he's been involved in the community for over 20 years. On the other hand, he's still being voted on by peers, and authors aren't, in general, the nicest judges of other people's work -- they can be downright tough. So it's a special achievement.

More telling is this: Jordan has made the Locus reader's poll list for every book save _The Great Hunt_ and _A Path of Daggers_. He's won two awards from the S.F. Book Club. So, he's obviously well-liked by Locus fantasy readers and by SFBC members. He's got a general appeal.

_A Game of Thrones_, on the other hand, has made the Hugo shortlist, has won a Nebula for his exctract, and has made the Locus lists; _A Clash of Kings_ has also made the Nebula final list, the Locus list I believe, and "The Hedge Knight" has made the finals of the World Fantasy Awards and a couple of short lists.

So he has some general appeal, he's got peer appeal, and he's got fen appeal. He is, in fact, in a stronger starting position than Jordan was -- which is part of the reason it only took him until _A Clash of Kings_ to hit the bestseller list, while it took Jordan twice as long.

Will GRRM ever sell as many books as Jordan?

I really don't think so -- just looking at the times people have listed there ages here, we've got a lot of post-collegiate adults, professionals in various fields, even parents (Caveat: Then again, the rasfw-rj group has a lot of the same sorts, so it might just be that older people tend to get more involved in discussing the minutae of the books.) There's precious few teens (I think) on the board (correct me if I'm wrong), on the other hand.

ASoIaF probably won't be quite as popular with younger readers, the ones who read Jordan and others for the massive battles with kick-ass Aiel and city-shattering channelers, so that cuts out a large market. This isn't to say that younger people aren't reading him -- I know they are, some of them participate here, and they're important parts of our little community -- but not to as great a quantity as are reading WoT.

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