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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Tower of Joy

Next 20 Messages

Street Prophet
User ID: 1307164 Jun 21st 5:53 PM
This is a fairly obvious question, but where is the Tower of Joy located? Is it in Dorne or the Marcher Lords?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 21st 6:02 PM
Not really clear. I'm of the opinion that the tower was part of the Summerhall complex, meaning that it would be in the Dornish Marches, roughly where the Stormlands, Reach, and the boundary of the Dornish mountains meat.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 21st 10:10 PM
Yes. It does say that the three Kingsguard had "the red mountains of Dorne at their backs", so I think we can assume they were not in Dorne, but near the Dornish border.

I asked this on another thread, but I will ask it here. I have honestly missed why this is called "Tower of Joy". Where does the name come from?

Ants
User ID: 2240694 Jun 21st 10:14 PM
Rhaegar called it that, although its not explained why. Its mentioned in Ned's thoughts just after he dreams of the fight with the Kingsguard.

I always got the feeling it might be because thats where he took Lyanna.

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 Jun 22nd 1:22 AM
Yeah, Ned reflects upon the fact that Rhaegar called the place "the Tower of Joy," but Ned (this part I am not sure about 100%) didn't "find it very joyful," or something like that.

Perhaps it was a building with special significance for the Targaryens. Maybe all Targaryen women give birth there? Perhaps the Prince resides there? Something. Any way you look at it, it isn't all that joyous anymore. L*

Ants
User ID: 2240694 Jun 22nd 5:01 AM
Its espescially not joyous now. Ned tore it down and made a bunch of cairns for the fallen knights that followed him and the Kingsguard.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 22nd 5:21 AM
LindaElane,

After Ned's dream, he thinks about pulling the tower down and recollects that it was said that Rhaegar called it the tower of joy, but that for him it was a bitter memory.

I believe he called it the tower of joy because Elia in particular gave birth to one or both of his children there. I'm not of the belief that the Targaryen women all went there to give birth, but his wife probably did.

Anon
User ID: 0269124 Jun 22nd 7:20 AM
How much, if any, of the Dornish Marches are controlled by Highgarden?

Tyrell calls himself 'Defender of the Marches' but we never hear any of his bannermen described as Marcher Lords.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Jun 22nd 7:22 AM
I'm thinking that the greatest "joy" in Rhaegar's life probably came from his relationship with Lyanna. Along those lines, I'd guess that the Tower of Joy (as named by Rhaegar) is the place where the two of them often met and had some of their most wondrous times.

Ran, was it mentioned anywhere in the book(s) that Elia gave birth there or spent any time at this particular location?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 22nd 9:02 AM
Anon,

The marches run all the way along the Red Mountains. To take a guess, the Reach Marches and the Storm Marches meet somewhere on that southernmost branch of the Mander.

Ser Gary,

Not mentioned, beyond the fact that he and Elia were in a tower, IIRC, in Dany's vision. But that could have been anywhere.

But how in the world would folk hear he called it the tower of joy? Wouldn't that sort of give up the ghost concerning his relationship with Lyanna?

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Jun 22nd 9:35 AM
Maybe he had a bad confidante or something :)

And you're right, it would probably give up the ghost in terms of his personal view of this "relationship". However, we don't really have her perspective on the relationship yet.

Ants
User ID: 2240694 Jun 22nd 9:50 AM
Heh, people thought he had kidnapped Lyanna to the tower. You don't do that unless you get some joy out of it (however sick that is). So people might have accepted him calling it the tower of joy even if they thought Lyanna went against her will.

Ran, are you sure it's Elia in Dany's vision? I haven't got my book around, but I always thought it was Lyanna, and the reason the child was prophesized was that it had Stark (Ice) and Taergayen (Fire) blood in it, it being Jon.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 22nd 11:09 AM
It's Elia with Aegon. GRRM's confirmed that. It's not part of the SSM collection as I could never get a hold of the folk who found that out to get a copy, but the people who said it are trustworthy. Someone else learned from GRRM that the child in the scene is definently dead.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 22nd 11:14 AM
Ahh, here's a little of the mail:

<< Who is the couple celebrating the birth of a son that Dany sees in her vision in the wizard's palacein Qarth? Can you tell us? Is it Rhaegar and someone? or is it the original Aegon (the Conqueror?) >>

Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Jun 22nd 11:51 AM
Methinks Rhaegar may have been making a rash assumption about that particular child being the song of ice and fire. Yes? No? Perhaps it had been prophesized that he would one day father this "chosen" child, and hence the proclamation.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 22nd 11:58 AM
I figure he was rash, yeah. He was naming his kids after the Conqueror and his sisters. He no doubt presumed he was having another daughter with Elia, too. And then, flash from above, he sees Lyanna and somehow comes to realize that the "prince that was promised" must come from her.

Or something. That's my take on it, anyhow. :)

Anon
User ID: 2031664 Jun 22nd 12:22 PM
I was always confused about the Swann's being Marcher Lords when Stonehelm is on Cape Wrath.

Are the mountains between Storm's End and the river that flows into the extreme north-west of the Sea of Dorne controlled by the Martells?

If so, it doesn't leave much to the Baratheons.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 22nd 2:42 PM
Mrm, I don't suspect they control all that, though certainly the Dornish would have had intermittent control of at least some portion of the mountains In the case of the Swanns, two possibilities come to me:

I imagine marcher lord refers to the fact that they guard the coast -- which, given that Dorne no doubt tried seaborne invasions in the past, would serve the same function as being a lord of the marches.

or

More likely, I think, is that the Swanns were marcher lords but aren't any longer -- i.e., that at some point Dorne controlled land in the Cape of Wrath and the Swanns were placed on the marches between their borders and those of the Baratheons. Clearly, that's no longer the case, but the old nomenclature remains.

And of course, a third possibility is that I'm totally off and GRRM has some particular idea. ;)

Anon
User ID: 2031664 Jun 22nd 5:06 PM
Stonehelm is also in the 'Red Watch', so perhaps Sunspear does conrol that area (or did during THK).

The Swann's could then be situated on Cape Wrath and the Marches simultaneously.

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 Jun 22nd 7:31 PM
Don't know if I'm screwing something up here, but...

I thought it was Ned and six other guys who fought the three remaining Kingsguard. Some of us thought that was because Ned only took a few men with him because the war was more or less over. So it was just the seven of them.

But then who "pulled down the tower"? Takes some manpower to dismantle a tower -- way beyond the abilities of seven guys. So did Ned have more troops there than just the six?

Next 20 Messages

Street Prophet User ID: 1307164	Jun 21st 5:53 PM This is a fairly obvious question, but where is the Tower of Joy located? Is it in Dorne or the Marcher Lords?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 21st 6:02 PM Not really clear. I'm of the opinion that the tower was part of the Summerhall complex, meaning that it would be in the Dornish Marches, roughly where the Stormlands, Reach, and the boundary of the Dornish mountains meat.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 21st 10:10 PM Yes. It does say that the three Kingsguard had "the red mountains of Dorne at their backs", so I think we can assume they were not in Dorne, but near the Dornish border. I asked this on another thread, but I will ask it here. I have honestly missed why this is called "Tower of Joy". Where does the name come from?
Ants User ID: 2240694	Jun 21st 10:14 PM Rhaegar called it that, although its not explained why. Its mentioned in Ned's thoughts just after he dreams of the fight with the Kingsguard. I always got the feeling it might be because thats where he took Lyanna.
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	Jun 22nd 1:22 AM Yeah, Ned reflects upon the fact that Rhaegar called the place "the Tower of Joy," but Ned (this part I am not sure about 100%) didn't "find it very joyful," or something like that. Perhaps it was a building with special significance for the Targaryens. Maybe all Targaryen women give birth there? Perhaps the Prince resides there? Something. Any way you look at it, it isn't all that joyous anymore. L*
Ants User ID: 2240694	Jun 22nd 5:01 AM Its espescially not joyous now. Ned tore it down and made a bunch of cairns for the fallen knights that followed him and the Kingsguard.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 22nd 5:21 AM LindaElane, After Ned's dream, he thinks about pulling the tower down and recollects that it was said that Rhaegar called it the tower of joy, but that for him it was a bitter memory. I believe he called it the tower of joy because Elia in particular gave birth to one or both of his children there. I'm not of the belief that the Targaryen women all went there to give birth, but his wife probably did.
Anon User ID: 0269124	Jun 22nd 7:20 AM How much, if any, of the Dornish Marches are controlled by Highgarden? Tyrell calls himself 'Defender of the Marches' but we never hear any of his bannermen described as Marcher Lords.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Jun 22nd 7:22 AM I'm thinking that the greatest "joy" in Rhaegar's life probably came from his relationship with Lyanna. Along those lines, I'd guess that the Tower of Joy (as named by Rhaegar) is the place where the two of them often met and had some of their most wondrous times. Ran, was it mentioned anywhere in the book(s) that Elia gave birth there or spent any time at this particular location?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 22nd 9:02 AM Anon, The marches run all the way along the Red Mountains. To take a guess, the Reach Marches and the Storm Marches meet somewhere on that southernmost branch of the Mander. Ser Gary, Not mentioned, beyond the fact that he and Elia were in a tower, IIRC, in Dany's vision. But that could have been anywhere. But how in the world would folk hear he called it the tower of joy? Wouldn't that sort of give up the ghost concerning his relationship with Lyanna?
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Jun 22nd 9:35 AM Maybe he had a bad confidante or something :) And you're right, it would probably give up the ghost in terms of his personal view of this "relationship". However, we don't really have her perspective on the relationship yet.
Ants User ID: 2240694	Jun 22nd 9:50 AM Heh, people thought he had kidnapped Lyanna to the tower. You don't do that unless you get some joy out of it (however sick that is). So people might have accepted him calling it the tower of joy even if they thought Lyanna went against her will. Ran, are you sure it's Elia in Dany's vision? I haven't got my book around, but I always thought it was Lyanna, and the reason the child was prophesized was that it had Stark (Ice) and Taergayen (Fire) blood in it, it being Jon.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 22nd 11:09 AM It's Elia with Aegon. GRRM's confirmed that. It's not part of the SSM collection as I could never get a hold of the folk who found that out to get a copy, but the people who said it are trustworthy. Someone else learned from GRRM that the child in the scene is definently dead.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 22nd 11:14 AM Ahh, here's a little of the mail: << Who is the couple celebrating the birth of a son that Dany sees in her vision in the wizard's palacein Qarth? Can you tell us? Is it Rhaegar and someone? or is it the original Aegon (the Conqueror?) >> Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Jun 22nd 11:51 AM Methinks Rhaegar may have been making a rash assumption about that particular child being the song of ice and fire. Yes? No? Perhaps it had been prophesized that he would one day father this "chosen" child, and hence the proclamation.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 22nd 11:58 AM I figure he was rash, yeah. He was naming his kids after the Conqueror and his sisters. He no doubt presumed he was having another daughter with Elia, too. And then, flash from above, he sees Lyanna and somehow comes to realize that the "prince that was promised" must come from her. Or something. That's my take on it, anyhow. :)
Anon User ID: 2031664	Jun 22nd 12:22 PM I was always confused about the Swann's being Marcher Lords when Stonehelm is on Cape Wrath. Are the mountains between Storm's End and the river that flows into the extreme north-west of the Sea of Dorne controlled by the Martells? If so, it doesn't leave much to the Baratheons.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 22nd 2:42 PM Mrm, I don't suspect they control all that, though certainly the Dornish would have had intermittent control of at least some portion of the mountains In the case of the Swanns, two possibilities come to me: I imagine marcher lord refers to the fact that they guard the coast -- which, given that Dorne no doubt tried seaborne invasions in the past, would serve the same function as being a lord of the marches. or More likely, I think, is that the Swanns were marcher lords but aren't any longer -- i.e., that at some point Dorne controlled land in the Cape of Wrath and the Swanns were placed on the marches between their borders and those of the Baratheons. Clearly, that's no longer the case, but the old nomenclature remains. And of course, a third possibility is that I'm totally off and GRRM has some particular idea. ;)
Anon User ID: 2031664	Jun 22nd 5:06 PM Stonehelm is also in the 'Red Watch', so perhaps Sunspear does conrol that area (or did during THK). The Swann's could then be situated on Cape Wrath and the Marches simultaneously.
Jeff User ID: 8813033	Jun 22nd 7:31 PM Don't know if I'm screwing something up here, but... I thought it was Ned and six other guys who fought the three remaining Kingsguard. Some of us thought that was because Ned only took a few men with him because the war was more or less over. So it was just the seven of them. But then who "pulled down the tower"? Takes some manpower to dismantle a tower -- way beyond the abilities of seven guys. So did Ned have more troops there than just the six?