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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / George RR Martin Vs Terry Goodkind

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Generic Eric
User ID: 8339223 Feb 16th 10:18 PM
Okay, as long as we're all comparing GRRM to other fantasy writers, might as well throw Terry Goodkind into the mix!

Although I have nagging fears of Goodkind's Sword of Truth series fading slowly into a Jordan-like fate, he still remains one of my all-time fav fantasy authors. I will never forget the excitement I felt while reading Wizard's First Rule.

But that was before I read Martin. I have to say Martin tops my list. I won't delve into all the details; I'll wait and see what everyone else has to say about the subject.

...then again, there's always Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn...

Keelyn
User ID: 9600383 Feb 17th 0:05 AM
I agree Eric. My first fantasy read was "Wizard's first rule", and I was having trouble topping it until I read the Fionavar tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay. Then a couple of years later came Martin, and I haven't found a book I've enjoyed more.....or read more than three times.
As for the series falling into a Jordan cycle, I have to say that it's deffinitely showing some Jordan leanings. I don't think I even finished the last book. Why doesn't Kahlan just have a damn kid and get it over with??

Tad Williams....I thought his series was pretty average.

Generic Eric
User ID: 8339223 Feb 17th 9:43 AM
Here's something I thought interesting: on the interview with Martin posted at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/feature/11609/002-8282654-6935424, Martin said of William's series:

"Actually, one of the things that really set me to write this was Tad Williams's series of a few years ago; when I picked up Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn I remember reading that and saying, you know, Tad has really proved here that this sort of thing doesn't have to be the province of badly written, derivative books. He sort of woke me up to the fact that this field could be done well."

But anyway, I'm not trying to prove anything about Williams, sorry...

Back to Goodkind; the one major gripe I have with his work is that his characters are too much like cardboard cutouts--Richard is near perfect, as is Kahlan...Darken Rahl was the definition of evil...
Yet sometimes, if the story is written well enough, the presence of some cliches doesn't bother me too much. But I'm not looking forward to Goodkind's 6th book NEARLY as much as I looked forward to his second, or to ASOS for that matter...

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Feb 17th 11:35 AM
All of Goodkinds I've read was 'Debt of Bones' in Legends, which didn't turn me into a goodkind fan.
also, I've read an interview with him where he claimed he didn't read Fantasy. I have allways disliked people who write in a Genre but won't read the Genre. Its a kind of hypocrticism I detest. So, no goodkind for me...

labor
User ID: 0240854 Feb 17th 12:01 PM
What I positively detest Goodkind for (among other things, which I extensivelly dislike, such as sloppy writing, frequent "deus ex machina", "borrowing" and gratuitious S@M) is that each of his books ends in a kind of "false climax" and in the next one we unavoidably learn that the previous victory made situation grimmer than ever... I don't know, I feel cheated as if the reset button was used again and again.

Also, an inordinate amount of time was given to the burning issue of consummation of Richard's and Kahlan's marriage. They did! Oh no, that was only a dream... etc.

IMHO "Wizard's Fiorst Rule" was readable but all the following books became progressively worse...

Emily
User ID: 2192024 Feb 17th 12:13 PM
Labor, I utterly agree with every word you say. But unfortunately Goodkind's flaws - particularly his obsession with the rape and mutilation of women - didn't appear until near the end of Wizard's First Rule, by which time I was addicted.

Keelyn - are you sure that Kahlan having a damm kid would be an improvement? It would only pave the way for 10 more sequels...

Calenth
User ID: 2525954 Feb 17th 12:27 PM
I'm sorry, but what little of Goodkind that i've read has come across as almost wholly derivative of other fantasy authors. All that I managed to see (maybe I missed something) was a compilation of Star Wars, Robert Jordan, and Tolkien cliches, with a lot more sex and violence added for "spice."

Admittedly, I didn't read much of his work ( I got sick of it fast.) If anyone can tell me what TG's merits actually are, I'm all ears. . I just couldn't find any on my own.

Trebla
User ID: 0561484 Feb 17th 12:55 PM
I found Goodkind utterly boring. I like writers that can build characters and scenes, like Martin and Jordan. Also, I know some people have found L.E. Modesit boring, but I really enjoyed the Saga of Recluse.

Generic Eric
User ID: 8339223 Feb 17th 1:13 PM
For some reason, I fail to see Goodkind's "obsession with the rape and mutilation of women." Emily, what about the mutilation and torture of Richard while a captive of the Mord-Sith? And why would Goodkind's references to rape be any worse than Martin's frequent instances of rape?

Ser Benjen
User ID: 9844073 Feb 17th 1:50 PM
I thought Wizard's First Rule was pretty good. THe dude with the punk haircut I thought was pretty far out. The whole Mord-Sith thing surprised me and seemed like an attempt to distinguish himself from Jordan. Then he went into that whole Aes Sedai like thing in Stone of Tears and really seemed like a copy cat to me.

One part in Stone of Tears still sticks with me though (My favorite scene in any of his stuff). It was right after Kahlan trained the ragtag army of young men from that defeated city-state. She went into the tent to white wash her skin to appear like a ghost. That scene I can see like a painting. After that it was downhill fast.

That book ended way to quickly, it seemed sloppy and patched together.

I read as far as the Temple of the Winds but could barely finish it. The world just lost it's credibility for me.

Calenth
User ID: 2525954 Feb 17th 2:15 PM
oh yeah, forgot that. It's hard for me to respect any author who names his book "Stone of Tears" when it comes out two or so years after The Dragon Reborn gets published. Why not just call your book "The One Ring" and get it over with.

Generic Eric
User ID: 8339223 Feb 17th 3:31 PM
I definitely agree with the fact that Goodkind's work has gone downhill. I think this is inevitable, however, with any writter who carries a saga past 3-4 books. I have yet to read any series which contains more than 4 books, and hear any complements to the latter works. I hope to no end this does not happen to GRRM.

Of course, a fantasy writter may write more than 3-4 books, but its always best if it's not on the same series. That is why I loved Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn so much; it left you satisfied, yet wishing there was more. This is how it should be...short and sweet, not drawn out and dull by the end.

That said, I still hold to my opinion that Goodkind's first works are good fantasy. He captured me within the first few pages, and surprised me often. He had a good protagonist in Richard, with a forbidden love, unknown identity, etc...

Anywho, I think we all can agree that no one can top GRRM; so whats the point of any comparisons??

Ashj
User ID: 9029153 Feb 17th 3:48 PM
Hi! New to this board but had to put my two cents in on this discussion. Please forgive me if I ramble....
I got sucked into Jordan, then Goodkind because I had assumed both sagas would be trilogies, as many sci-fi/fantasy stories are. And I will stand by my opinion that the first three Goodkind books were really good as well as the first 4 of Jordan's. But they went downhill after that. Here's why I think that is. Western society tends to be a society of "threes." Notice there are always three reasons why some war started or three possible answers to a question, that kind of think. Anyway, we as readers, expect writers to be able to wrap up a storyline in three books or it starts to become a waste of our time. Some writers overcome that by wrapping up one storyline in three books then revisiting the characters and places "a few years later" for another storyline. The point is our expectation is that the story will have a payoff at book three. Now, by telling us in advance that a storyline is going to be 5 or six books, the author is doing us a favor, setting up an expectation of a payoff. If you don't know when it's going to end, you keep wondering if spending time with this auther is going to be worth it.
I think Martin has done a great job of making characters that I can care about and the action in the books is tight and relevant to the overall story. But I'm glad I know just how long this storyline will last. Because as much as I loved some of Goodkind's characters at first, by book 4, I just wanted resolution and I started losing track of the point of the whole book. Same with Jordan.

Generic Eric
User ID: 8339223 Feb 17th 5:14 PM
Ditto Ashj. Couldn't have said it better myself, although I tried in the above message...

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Feb 18th 2:53 PM
Well, Jordan was supposed to go 7. So he's only 1 over so far.

ab

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 18th 3:20 PM
And he'll be at least 4 over, according to him -- for the last 4 books, his standard response has been 'at least three more books.'

Though, did he really intend it as a seven-parter? My impression had always been 4-5 (EotW, TGH, and TDR all being more or less the same, with the wrap up in the 1 or 2 concluding novels.)

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Feb 18th 3:29 PM
IIRC, it was meant to be a trilogy at first.
At first being a long, long time ago, of course. :o)

Ashj
User ID: 9029153 Feb 18th 3:38 PM
Yeah, I think KAH is right. It was supposed to be a trilogy...then it was going to be 5 books. I've pretty much given up on this one ever ending.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Feb 20th 4:09 AM
Ashj - LOL
I think that the longer he'll keep writing these dreadful long traits in whihc nothing happen, he will lose more and more fans.
I hope they'll all convert to GrrM

Calenth
User ID: 2525954 Feb 20th 5:04 PM
the Wheel of Time was never supposed to be shorter than six books at any point after Eye of the World was written and published. When first pitched to Tom Doherty at TOR books the pan was for four, but by the time that Eye was published (i.e., late 1989.early 1990) the plan was for six.

I know this for fact, because not only was I reading the books at the time, but because I actually happened at the time to live near Robert Jordan's house in Charleston, saw him on the street, and asked him.

Otherwise. .see what I've said in GrrM vs. Robert Jordan thread below.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Generic Eric User ID: 8339223	Feb 16th 10:18 PM Okay, as long as we're all comparing GRRM to other fantasy writers, might as well throw Terry Goodkind into the mix! Although I have nagging fears of Goodkind's Sword of Truth series fading slowly into a Jordan-like fate, he still remains one of my all-time fav fantasy authors. I will never forget the excitement I felt while reading Wizard's First Rule. But that was before I read Martin. I have to say Martin tops my list. I won't delve into all the details; I'll wait and see what everyone else has to say about the subject. ...then again, there's always Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn...
Keelyn User ID: 9600383	Feb 17th 0:05 AM I agree Eric. My first fantasy read was "Wizard's first rule", and I was having trouble topping it until I read the Fionavar tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay. Then a couple of years later came Martin, and I haven't found a book I've enjoyed more.....or read more than three times. As for the series falling into a Jordan cycle, I have to say that it's deffinitely showing some Jordan leanings. I don't think I even finished the last book. Why doesn't Kahlan just have a damn kid and get it over with?? Tad Williams....I thought his series was pretty average.
Generic Eric User ID: 8339223	Feb 17th 9:43 AM Here's something I thought interesting: on the interview with Martin posted at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/feature/11609/002-8282654-6935424, Martin said of William's series: "Actually, one of the things that really set me to write this was Tad Williams's series of a few years ago; when I picked up Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn I remember reading that and saying, you know, Tad has really proved here that this sort of thing doesn't have to be the province of badly written, derivative books. He sort of woke me up to the fact that this field could be done well." But anyway, I'm not trying to prove anything about Williams, sorry... Back to Goodkind; the one major gripe I have with his work is that his characters are too much like cardboard cutouts--Richard is near perfect, as is Kahlan...Darken Rahl was the definition of evil... Yet sometimes, if the story is written well enough, the presence of some cliches doesn't bother me too much. But I'm not looking forward to Goodkind's 6th book NEARLY as much as I looked forward to his second, or to ASOS for that matter...
Omer User ID: 9551723	Feb 17th 11:35 AM All of Goodkinds I've read was 'Debt of Bones' in Legends, which didn't turn me into a goodkind fan. also, I've read an interview with him where he claimed he didn't read Fantasy. I have allways disliked people who write in a Genre but won't read the Genre. Its a kind of hypocrticism I detest. So, no goodkind for me...
labor User ID: 0240854	Feb 17th 12:01 PM What I positively detest Goodkind for (among other things, which I extensivelly dislike, such as sloppy writing, frequent "deus ex machina", "borrowing" and gratuitious S@M) is that each of his books ends in a kind of "false climax" and in the next one we unavoidably learn that the previous victory made situation grimmer than ever... I don't know, I feel cheated as if the reset button was used again and again. Also, an inordinate amount of time was given to the burning issue of consummation of Richard's and Kahlan's marriage. They did! Oh no, that was only a dream... etc. IMHO "Wizard's Fiorst Rule" was readable but all the following books became progressively worse...
Emily User ID: 2192024	Feb 17th 12:13 PM Labor, I utterly agree with every word you say. But unfortunately Goodkind's flaws - particularly his obsession with the rape and mutilation of women - didn't appear until near the end of Wizard's First Rule, by which time I was addicted. Keelyn - are you sure that Kahlan having a damm kid would be an improvement? It would only pave the way for 10 more sequels...
Calenth User ID: 2525954	Feb 17th 12:27 PM I'm sorry, but what little of Goodkind that i've read has come across as almost wholly derivative of other fantasy authors. All that I managed to see (maybe I missed something) was a compilation of Star Wars, Robert Jordan, and Tolkien cliches, with a lot more sex and violence added for "spice." Admittedly, I didn't read much of his work ( I got sick of it fast.) If anyone can tell me what TG's merits actually are, I'm all ears. . I just couldn't find any on my own.
Trebla User ID: 0561484	Feb 17th 12:55 PM I found Goodkind utterly boring. I like writers that can build characters and scenes, like Martin and Jordan. Also, I know some people have found L.E. Modesit boring, but I really enjoyed the Saga of Recluse.
Generic Eric User ID: 8339223	Feb 17th 1:13 PM For some reason, I fail to see Goodkind's "obsession with the rape and mutilation of women." Emily, what about the mutilation and torture of Richard while a captive of the Mord-Sith? And why would Goodkind's references to rape be any worse than Martin's frequent instances of rape?
Ser Benjen User ID: 9844073	Feb 17th 1:50 PM I thought Wizard's First Rule was pretty good. THe dude with the punk haircut I thought was pretty far out. The whole Mord-Sith thing surprised me and seemed like an attempt to distinguish himself from Jordan. Then he went into that whole Aes Sedai like thing in Stone of Tears and really seemed like a copy cat to me. One part in Stone of Tears still sticks with me though (My favorite scene in any of his stuff). It was right after Kahlan trained the ragtag army of young men from that defeated city-state. She went into the tent to white wash her skin to appear like a ghost. That scene I can see like a painting. After that it was downhill fast. That book ended way to quickly, it seemed sloppy and patched together. I read as far as the Temple of the Winds but could barely finish it. The world just lost it's credibility for me.
Calenth User ID: 2525954	Feb 17th 2:15 PM oh yeah, forgot that. It's hard for me to respect any author who names his book "Stone of Tears" when it comes out two or so years after The Dragon Reborn gets published. Why not just call your book "The One Ring" and get it over with.
Generic Eric User ID: 8339223	Feb 17th 3:31 PM I definitely agree with the fact that Goodkind's work has gone downhill. I think this is inevitable, however, with any writter who carries a saga past 3-4 books. I have yet to read any series which contains more than 4 books, and hear any complements to the latter works. I hope to no end this does not happen to GRRM. Of course, a fantasy writter may write more than 3-4 books, but its always best if it's not on the same series. That is why I loved Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn so much; it left you satisfied, yet wishing there was more. This is how it should be...short and sweet, not drawn out and dull by the end. That said, I still hold to my opinion that Goodkind's first works are good fantasy. He captured me within the first few pages, and surprised me often. He had a good protagonist in Richard, with a forbidden love, unknown identity, etc... Anywho, I think we all can agree that no one can top GRRM; so whats the point of any comparisons??
Ashj User ID: 9029153	Feb 17th 3:48 PM Hi! New to this board but had to put my two cents in on this discussion. Please forgive me if I ramble.... I got sucked into Jordan, then Goodkind because I had assumed both sagas would be trilogies, as many sci-fi/fantasy stories are. And I will stand by my opinion that the first three Goodkind books were really good as well as the first 4 of Jordan's. But they went downhill after that. Here's why I think that is. Western society tends to be a society of "threes." Notice there are always three reasons why some war started or three possible answers to a question, that kind of think. Anyway, we as readers, expect writers to be able to wrap up a storyline in three books or it starts to become a waste of our time. Some writers overcome that by wrapping up one storyline in three books then revisiting the characters and places "a few years later" for another storyline. The point is our expectation is that the story will have a payoff at book three. Now, by telling us in advance that a storyline is going to be 5 or six books, the author is doing us a favor, setting up an expectation of a payoff. If you don't know when it's going to end, you keep wondering if spending time with this auther is going to be worth it. I think Martin has done a great job of making characters that I can care about and the action in the books is tight and relevant to the overall story. But I'm glad I know just how long this storyline will last. Because as much as I loved some of Goodkind's characters at first, by book 4, I just wanted resolution and I started losing track of the point of the whole book. Same with Jordan.
Generic Eric User ID: 8339223	Feb 17th 5:14 PM Ditto Ashj. Couldn't have said it better myself, although I tried in the above message...
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Feb 18th 2:53 PM Well, Jordan was supposed to go 7. So he's only 1 over so far. ab
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 18th 3:20 PM And he'll be at least 4 over, according to him -- for the last 4 books, his standard response has been 'at least three more books.' Though, did he really intend it as a seven-parter? My impression had always been 4-5 (EotW, TGH, and TDR all being more or less the same, with the wrap up in the 1 or 2 concluding novels.)
KAH User ID: 0541004	Feb 18th 3:29 PM IIRC, it was meant to be a trilogy at first. At first being a long, long time ago, of course. :o)
Ashj User ID: 9029153	Feb 18th 3:38 PM Yeah, I think KAH is right. It was supposed to be a trilogy...then it was going to be 5 books. I've pretty much given up on this one ever ending.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Feb 20th 4:09 AM Ashj - LOL I think that the longer he'll keep writing these dreadful long traits in whihc nothing happen, he will lose more and more fans. I hope they'll all convert to GrrM
Calenth User ID: 2525954	Feb 20th 5:04 PM the Wheel of Time was never supposed to be shorter than six books at any point after Eye of the World was written and published. When first pitched to Tom Doherty at TOR books the pan was for four, but by the time that Eye was published (i.e., late 1989.early 1990) the plan was for six. I know this for fact, because not only was I reading the books at the time, but because I actually happened at the time to live near Robert Jordan's house in Charleston, saw him on the street, and asked him. Otherwise. .see what I've said in GrrM vs. Robert Jordan thread below.