This is a mirror of the now defunct eesite ASOIAF webboard.

The discussions for G.R.R. Martin's awesome series "A Song of Ice and Fire" are now being held at: Current ASoIaF Webboard

You cannot post new messages to this board. Go to the Current ASoIaF Webboard for the most current discussions.

A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / The Dragon Has Three Heads

Markus
User ID: 0366544 		Apr 28th 10:55 AM
I'm curious about the current state of speculation in regard to the identities of whoever is meant by: 'The dragon has three heads'.

Is this only a reference to Rhaegar's third child?

Or are there presently three Targaryens who can/will be referred to as some kind of union? And if yes, who are they?

Aemon, for instance, is already very old, and unlikely to ride a dragon in battle, which would leave Jon and Dany ... only two apparent other candidates.

Thus, are Rhaegar's children by Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys, really dead? Or has Jon perhaps a twin?

Is there perhaps another Targaryen who was forgotten like Aemon, is Rhaego perhaps still alive, or is Tyrion really Aerys' bastard?

Or should we even consider Baratheons such as Shireen, Gendry, Edric Storm or Mya Stone, and Martells as possibilities since they have all a little Targaryen blood?

And does it have to be somebody with Targaryen blood at all?

Any thoughts?
Blackstone
User ID: 9858163 		Apr 28th 11:02 AM
Does it take someone with Targaryen blood? I don't think we know, but I would suppose so.

I think there are many people with more Targaryen blood than the Baratheons, who were descended from Otherys Baratheon rumored to be Aegon's bastard brother. For example, the nobility of Dorne includng Prince Martell are all descended from prior intermarriages between the Martell and Targaryens. Elia and Rhaegar were hardly the first. Others might include the Daynes. Lady Dayne was supposed to have stunning violet eyes (a Targaryen trait perhaps).
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Apr 28th 11:04 AM
Heh.

We just had a rather heated debate over that very issue.

Personally, I'm thinking Jon is the third head, and the other two 'heads' - Aegon and Rhaenys - are dead.
I think Dany got a genuine look into the past in ToD, seeing Rhaegar misinterpreting a Dragon prophecy.
Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 		Apr 28th 11:06 AM
Tyrion.

His mother died in childbirth, like Dany's and perhaps Jon's.

Why did Tywin leave the office of Hand of the King under Aerys II, and then return and sack the city some time later?

I think Tywin tried to prove Tyrion was not his own son. Other than Lannister pride, does he have reason to do that? Is it just because he blames Tyrion for the death of his wife? Perhaps, but then again....
Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 		Apr 28th 11:08 AM
I don't think it a necessity that Tyrion be of Targaryen blood, but I do think there could be ties there....
Markus
User ID: 3919194 		Apr 28th 12:54 PM
Blackstone:

I'm not sure if the currently living Martells have really closer and more recent blood ties to the Targaryens than the Baratheons.

For once, we don't know of any Targaryens who married into the ruling line of Dorne since Daeron II. And secondly, we know of more recent blood ties between Targaryens and Baratheons, upon which Robert based his claim to the throne.

If Robert (Stannis) himself is an offspring of these unions is of course uncertain, but it seems at least possible. There is also the fact that Shireen has strange, perhaps prophetic dreams.

As for the Daynes, I think GRRM clarified that they have no Valyrian blood.

Kay-Arne:

Yes, I would agree that Dany's vision of Rhaegar meant just what you say. However, this leaves us with Dany and Jon. Thus, the question is still if there is perhaps still a third Targaryen ... if the dragon is supposed to have three heads in the _present_ too. And there are three dragons, at least.

Benjen:

One problem I've with this is that Tywin resigned at least a decade after Tyrion's birth. Thus I think it's more likely that his resignation was triggered by Jaime's acceptance into the Kingsguard. Of course, this is hardly conclusive one way or another.

Tywin's role in Robert's Rebellion could certainly have been caused by the opportunity and the desire to claim the throne for himself or at least a slightly lesser ambition.

I think it's certainly possible that Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys, but I also think that one Targaryen 'bastard' would be enough.
Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 		Apr 29th 0:13 AM
Perhaps the 3rd head of the dragon hasn't made a formal appearance yet. Remember, Aerion Targaryon had an infant son, who, if memory serves, would be younger than Aemon Targryon. Maybe Aerion even has a grand child and line as well. There may yet be Targaryons around, but since they were "perceived" to be of the ruling line, they were forgotten. Funny thing though, Aerions line is more in the direct line for the throne than Dany's, or Jon's.

ab
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Apr 29th 9:01 AM
Markus;

Well, I didn't think Rhaegar misinterpreted the Dragon prophecy completely.
I think this is what happened, more or less:

Rhaegar either has a Dragon vision himself, or he is somehow interpreting one of old to be valid for him.
This prophecy mentions 'three heads of the dragon' and one of them a 'dragon with a Song of Ice and Fire'.

And undoubtedly a lot more, and spoken in a lot more flowery fashion than what I can come up with...but those two elements have to be in there, I think.

The three heads of the dragon is after Aegon and his two sisters - three Targaryen siblings. That is what their banner symbolizes, IIRC.
Rhaegar correctly interprets it to mean that he will have three children.

The 'Song' part could mean a lot...and it is not certain what Rhaegar thought it meant. But I assume the Dragon with the Song would for Rhaegar be the one Chosen to do Very Important Stuff, or Carrier of Targaryen Glory, or some foolery of that sort.
Rhaegar probably is right or close to right here too.

But from there, he errs.
Having had Aegon, he thinks that the boy is the one with the 'Song' - he probably thinks that the last child will be a daughter, to parallell Aegon and his sisters.
Also, he no doubt believes that whatever Important Stuff Aegon will do, his sisters will help him, like they helped Aegon conquer Westeros.

However, another boy - Jon - is born, and the other two children are killed. Jon is the one with the Song, and the other two won't be able to help him, for all them being 'two heads'.
Dany and Aemon and Viserys and eventual other living Targayens is, presumably, not covered by this prophecy at all.

The reason for Rhaegar's misinterpretation, is probably due to uncareful extrapolation on his part, or a confusing, foggy vision, or something.
Daeron the Drunken misinterpreted his vision, too.



All this, of course, is speculation on my part.

It could well be that the prophecy indeed says outright that the three heads of the dragon will fight Evil together, or some such.
(although, if this is true, Rhaegar's interpretation of three sibling Targaryens is almost assuredly false, too)

However, I'm a bit doubtful if we can extrapolate some unknown Targaryen from this.
For one, we already _have_ three Targaryens - Dany, Jon and Aemon. A while ago, we had four, when Viserys was still alive. (and if Viserys doesn't qualify because of his vulnerability to fire, then neither does Jon)

If we add an unknown Targaryen to this, we have five first, then four, and when Aemon one day dies, we will finally have three.

Personally, I'm thinking that if the prophecy indeed _does_ relate to three heads in the present , it is Dany, Jon and Aemon.
Although Aemon is old and likely to die soon, he could still be instrumental in the fight against the Others, due to his vast knowledge.
Markus
User ID: 3919194 		Apr 29th 10:23 AM
If I understand you correctly, then you think Jon is the sole surviving member of the three-headed dragon Rhaegar referred to?

I'm a bit doubtful of this conclusion since this would leave Dany and perhaps even her dragons�out of the picture. There is also the fact that the Undying Ones repeated what Rhaegar said ... as if the dragon has _still_ three heads.

I think your proposed alternative would suit these points better.

I would agree that we already have three Targaryens with Jon, Dany and Aemon. But then, we already had four Targaryens with Viserys, too, which suggests that a fourth one wouldn't really be a problem.

As for Aemon, it's not merely his old age -- I suppose he could even survive the entire series -- it's that we have three dragons who might have to be ridden at one point, and the fact that Aemon seems too frail to go anywhere near the dragons, or anywhere else for that matter.

I just wish we knew more about dragons. For instance, if just anybody could ride them like a horse, or if it requires a Targaryen, a Valyrian, or some kind of warg-like bond.
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Apr 29th 10:40 AM
Well, yes, I was proposing that Jon was the sole remaining 'head'.

What muddles the picture, is that we don't know what the prophecy sounds like. Even if the 'three heads' isn't related to Dany, that doesn't mean that it prevents Dany from doing Important Stuff. Prophecies are rather opaque and misleading things.

But the Dragon rider point is valid. Could be that an able third Targaryen is needed for riding the third dragon.
Ian
User ID: 9670323 		May 1st 0:52 AM

Well I said this in another thread, but I think people are over looking the "Fire and Ice".

The three heads will be a perfect balance of Fire and Ice IMO, which means Dany (Fire of the Targaryens), Arya (the Ice of the Starks) and Jon (the balance of both).

Plus Arya is supposed to become a warrior queen.
Markus
User ID: 3919194 		May 1st 8:30 AM
Well, Arya will likely train to become an assassin at first, thus I'm not sure that she will really become a leader/commander of men in battle via a dragon.

However, a point in favor of Arya is certainly that it seems likely she will cross the Narrow Sea at some point, which means that she could meet up with Dany before she returns to Westeros.

There is also the possibility that her bond with Nymeria dims considerably if her wolf won't be able to accompany her, which might in turn offer the possibility that she gets interested in one of Dany's dragons.

As for the meaning of 'Ice and Fire', I think there is no necessity that it refers to the dragonriders. The dragons are Dany's after all, and seem mainly connected to fire and the Targaryens, not the Starks. They in turn have their direwolves, and whatever powers their heritage as descendants of the First Men brings.

To attribute the meaning of 'Ice and Fire' solely to Jon, Dany and Arya would further exclude Bran, who seems to become extremely important in the fight against the Others, and also the other Starks.

'Ice and Fire' could also refer to a lot besides Starks and Targaryens, such as the Others and the Lord of Light, for instance, or to the Children of the Forest.

I would agree however that if the third dragonhead/rider isn't a Targaryen, Arya seems like a good choice.
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		May 2nd 9:58 AM
When it comes to dragons...

First, we do not know for sure how much it takes to control a dragon. Given that Dany isn't likely
to find any other Targaryens she can trust her dragons with , she might try to come up with some crude control of the other two. It will probably not be as good as if she had extra riders, but it might suffice.

Furthermore, we don't know if all of the dragons will survive. I'm going to be a bit disappointed if Dany's opponents cannot come up with some sort of semi-effective counter against the dragons, considering how they'll be too powerful and let her win too easily elsewise.
If one or more of the dragons die, it'll give the story more suspense.

It certainly doesn't invalidate a third rider, but it need not be a crushing blow for the story if one doesn't appear, either.
MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 		May 31st 2:30 AM
Why does everyone assume that Arya will go become an assasin? I think she will, eventually, go find Jaquen or whatever his name is, but I don't think she will do it while she is 10 or however old she currently is and I don't think she will do it while she still has so many people in Westeros to kill and her family is in danger as well. Also, why would you want a high born assasin? Part of the big thing about assasins is anonymity. Granted, she could not get seen, but if people always end up dead mysteriously when she is around she will be caught. She already draws distrust for being so strong willed and also for having a direwolf. The last thing she needs is to go missing for long periods of time that coincide with murders and to have people near her current location die out of the blue.

Before reading this forum I had never even considered Tyrion being a Targaryen. Some thoughts that I had on the subject - Dany's mother died in child birth. Did Jon's? Anyways, perhaps it was because of Dany's power that her mother died in child birth (though bad medical science is more likely the culprit). Being a Targaryen could help explain the mysterious greatness of Tyrion. Aemon and Aerys (I think, Baelor and Maekar's geeky brother) were both book worms. Tyrion is a dwarf. Why? Who knows, but having Aerys' genes and the inbred Targaryen genes could be a good reason. Dany's son was also born deformed and she had a really nasty delivery, both of which we assume were because of the magic of the sorceress. Course, Dany's baby would be way out of line with the three headed dragon but it could possibly indicate some sort of genetic "issue" that is common in the Targaryen genes.

Does it talk about Tywin's wife anywhere? Does anyone remember a good description of Tywin's appearance? I know he had mismatched eyes. Wow, going through a Clash of Kings you find some impressive evidence that supports Tyrion having a father other than Tywin. I am sure someone has done this before but oh well:

aGoT p 51

Tyrion Lannister, the youngst of Lord Tywin's brood and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. his head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white. Jon watched him with fascination.

aGoT p 55

Tyrion Lannister was sitting on the ledge above the door to the Great Hall, looking for all the world like a gargoyle. <remember the gargoyles all over Dragonstone, Targaryen stronghold?>

aGoT p 57

"You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."

"Am I?" the dwarf replied, sardonic. "Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me, and he's never been sure."

Now that I think of it there are bizzare Tyrion references all over. The shadow of a king reference on page 57 of aGoT, maestor Aemon's comment, why he has mismatched eyes and really white hair, why he is a dwarf, why the direwolves attack him on site (he has the blood of the dragon in him and they direwolves owned by wargs. I bet they can somehow "sense" the magic in a strong person of valeryia or of the Targaryens. What about in King's Landing where he is totally absorbed with the Draon skulls? He is in awe of them and strangely attracted to them. He is in awe of the dragons. He also seems captivated by the wildfire. The Wall pulls him in a strange way as well. Jon and him have a bond that formed quickly, wonder why?

Also, Tyrion DOES have a song attached to him. Remember when him and Bronn are walking out of the Vale and waiting for the clansmen to find them? He whistls a tune to attract attention and then explains the reason he still knows the song and how he learned it. The name of the song was 'The Seasons of my Love.' It is Myrish and is "Sweet and sad, if you understand the words." At first I was like "how can this have some greater meaning...what about that song might make it important to the song of ice and fire. Then I was like "DUH!" *Seasons* is the key word here. What is this world's greatest oddity? The whacked out seasons. Long summers and long winters. The Stark motto is based upon one of these seasons and the term "winter" has taken on a very strong connotative meaning throughout Westeros that symbolized adversity and dark times, etc. Anyways, since I think that the point of the song of ice and fire is to either merge or balance the old gods and the seven gods and the north and the south (I thin kthey are sort of the same thing), this all fits. A song that is both sweet and sad, summer and winter. He also mentions that you appreciate it, you must know the words. He does. He knows MUCH. Anyways, this could be some strong foreshadowing of Tyrion's role in the future books and maybe even upon his parentage.

Does anyone know why Tywin stopped being the Hand? I don't have a chronology so I will guess at a possibility....

Aerys is mad is fools around with Lady Lannister. Tywin, being the Hand, finds out and returns to Casterly Rock to avoid a conflict with Aerys and to avoid the whole world finding out and dishonoring Tywin. She becomes pregnant soon after and dies during childbirth. Tywin does not know for sure whose child she bore so he must wait until it is old enough to tell one way or the other. Also, even if it is a Targaryen bastard, the odds that Tywin can murder one of Aerys' bastards, who is also thought to be the son of the Lord of casterly rock by the rest of the kingdom, are small. Anyways, he realizes the truth as Tyrion grows. He still can't afford to kill Tyrion and Jaime becomes attached to him. When the war starts, Tywin sees the chance to avenge his dishonor and "off" Aerys. Perhaps Jaime even knows the truth and this is why has a soft spot for Tyrion (he knows why Tywin hates him but he sees their mother in Tyrion or some such nonsense). This could also be motivation to join the king's gaurd so young. He wanted to be close to Aerys. Anyways, Tywin has his revenge durign the sacking of king's landing. Jaime butchers Aerys and Gregor mutilates the Targaryen children.

damn I should sleep. :(
Markus
User ID: 8820133 		May 31st 7:16 AM
Aerys became king in 262, died in 283, and Tywin was his Hand for nearly 20 years. This means that Tyrion is much too old to fit into your theory why Tywin resigned as Hand.

It's more likely that Jaime's acceptance into the Kingsguard was the reason for the rift between Tywin and Aerys, since I don't see why Tywin should have agreed that his 15-year old son forsakes his inheritance, leaving Tyrion as Tywin's heir.

As for Arya, consider that when the Lannisters triumph, and possibly kill Robb, perhaps even Catelyn, she might decide to flee Westeros. After all, what can a 10 or 11 year old girl do to avenge her family?
labor
User ID: 0798784 		May 31st 8:43 AM
IMHO, Jaime becoming a White Sword was the reason for Tywin's resignation too... But maybe there was more than that and the secret of Tyrion's parentage came out as well.

I mean, Tywin certainly has at least serious suspicions in that direction and I can't picture him serving Aerys for however many years after Tyrion's birth if he had reason to suspect that his sovereign has cuckholded him, or worse.
Morever, there are hints that Tywin's marriage was not merely a matter of convenience and necessity. I.e. he has never remarried, for instance, despite the need for appropriate heirs after Jaime became a Kingsguard. Tywin doesn't even seem to keep any concubines and isn't rumored to be gay. The only other lord behaving in similar fashion (that we saw) was Hoster Tully and we are told that he was deeply in love with his wife. So, if Tywin suspected Aerys of being Tyrion's father, he most likely lay Lady Joanna's death at Aerys's door, too.
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		May 31st 10:43 AM
I'm not sure if I buy into this 'Aerys is Tyrion's father', but there is one peculiarity...

I found it odd that Aerys' own pregnant wife and son was packed off to Dragonstone with the whole Royal fleet, but Elia and her children remained in King's Landing.

Perhaps Aerys, his lucidity waxing and waning ever more towards the end, confirmed Tywin's suspicions that he had boffed his wife. When Tywin resigned in anger, Aerys lucidity returning for a moment, realized that his own wife might be in danger for it, and packed her off to Dragonstone.

Or something. I don't know if I believe this myself, but it bears thinking...
labor
User ID: 0798784 		May 31st 1:26 PM
OTOH, Tyrion seems to share the trademark Targaryen fascination with the fire/wildfire/dragons. Also, he is pictured with a dragon skull on the UK ASOS cover... That prompted me to return to "Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen" theory.
It would also explain so much in Tywin's and Jaime's behaviour... Especially concerning the Sack of KL.