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Next 20 Messages

Lodengarl
User ID: 0875014 May 22nd 5:37 PM
Liam McDonald said it best with the following concerning James Oliver Rigney, Jr. (RJ)

"Back in the 1980's Jordan was busy desecrating the work of a writer with actual talent - Robert E. Howard - by turning out a series of badly written novels about Howard's Conan the Barbarian.

EotW clicked in large part due to a massive marketing push by publisher Tor Books, where Jordan's wife was an editor. Bloated pros is common: "It is a year of strangers; of a lady; and a gleeman with his tales of heroes; and a peddler with news of the present - of war with Ghealdan, far away; and of the rising of a false dragon - the savior whose coming foretold and dreaded, will bring a new Breaking to the world" etc. blah blah

Good fantasy writers rarely go on so. Mervyne Peake and ER Eddison turned out tight, brilliant trilogies. All the Conan stories actually written by Howard can fit in three slim paperbacks. Yet the strained Xanth novels of Piers Anthony number somewhere in the twenties, and the life and loves of Rand and the rest go on long after their meager interest was tapped."

Lodengarl
User ID: 0875014 May 22nd 5:42 PM
GRRM does not waste space in my opinion...he does not lead a band of people for hundreds of pages only to have them bailed out at the last minute - making the reader feel cheated. RJ is exhausting and his work is rather painful to get through - through masichism he rewards us with epic scenes, yet GRRM feeds us fat and rich, dripping, greasy, filling characters and scenes like stout ale or a blood pie...for me, there is no comparison, aSoI&F is a true orgy of reading, with every desire and viewpoint fulfilled.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 22nd 6:08 PM
And about three-quarters of those stories from Howard are tripe. Desecrating? It's only desecrating if you ignore the trash he wrote, but yes indeed, he was talented.

James Branch Cabell wrote an octodecacology (18 volume -- actually 20, though) series which was hugely popular in his time and he was spoken of in the same breath as F. Scott FitzGerald, and some of them (like Jurgen) are actually under-rated examples of some of America's finest novels.

And Glen Cook has gone on past his original trilogy, and no one calls him a bad writer (though some point to individual books and say they're bad, but more on this later.)

And Roger Zelazny wrote a nice, tight 5-novel series (Amber.) And then he followed it up with the terrible five after that, but he's not a bad writer.

And Gene Wolfe has written a multi-book series (his "Sun" books) which has garnered much acclaim, even while others have gotten mediocre receptions because they seem to be ineffectually trying to close up loose ends which keep piling up, yet he's certainly not a bad writer.

And so on. Comparisons of size tend to be silly when they're put together as Mr. McDonald puts it together.

It's one thing to analyze closely the issue of why Howard was so compact and Jordan wasn't (market -- there is was no market for non-Howard short Conan stories at the time, there was a market for non-Howard Conan novels at the time). But to point to it as some sort of imperical proof is shoddy reasoning.

It's one thing to say that Jordan's series has expanded out of all proportion with the story being, over the last two novels, slow and painful dreck filled with repetitious, lifeless characterizations and scenery descriptions, and then to say that Mervyn Peake and E.R. Edison wrote very tight stories.

But it's shoddy reasoning when you ignore that slim story collections and tight little trilogies are not the end all and be all of fiction, more or less. Good, very-big series can be written. They have been written. And bad very-big series have been and are being written. It doesn't _necessarily_ mean the author is a talentless hack. Maybe a good sign, but not proof in and of itself.

I don't like RJ's series. He started relatively well, and I do think he has some talent, but it's very bad now. But Mr. McDonald's points are specious in any case.

If writing a bad book, or even several bad books, means you're a bad writer, than someone like Joseph Conrad (whose first book _The Spy_ was a terribl novel) shouldn't have dared to write _Heart of Darkness_ and _Lord Jim_. So, clearly, writing a bad book is not the same as being a bad writer.

Is RJ a bad writer? In a limited sense -- he seems to have no aptitude for reigning in his story. Going from four to six books early on is okay, or even further -- so long as you put a firm stop to it at some point and stick by your guns. He hasn't done that, which is a shame, and it means his last books have been mostly pointless drivel.

But is he a bad writer in the larger sense? No, I don't think so. _The Eye of the World_ was a good novel. The ideas that he put into it were refreshingly neat, and some of the passages he wrote were really rather elegantly powerful (Moiraine recounting the last days of Manetheren remains my favorite of all the scenes he's written).

Does Mr. McDonald go further than this in his assessment of Jordan? Or is he, simply, entirely uninterested in mainstream epic fantasy (suggested by the fact that he points to pulpy Howard, ignoring all of his stinkers, and literary Edison and Peake)? <pokes around the Internet.>

Lodengarl
User ID: 0875014 May 22nd 7:29 PM
I just liked the example....I do not care for the WOT series. Ran, nice post! Interesting comment I thought I would post. I think right now I am suffering from a classic case of bandwaggon loathing...everytime I am in a book store and see a "teen" grab Path of Daggers I want to shove some Leiber, Pratchett, UKL, or GRRM in his hand -I was also thrown onto the waggon when friends "made" me purchase the books, acclaiming "the best fantasy since Tolkien" and I felt sick after reading through them.

sparhawk
User ID: 0436494 May 23rd 5:23 AM
jordan started out pretty well, and there's still time to redeem himself, IMO. however, it is running out. i think he has succumbed to commercialism. if he drags out the series, more books will be bought, making him more money. his jlast two books haven't been great, and the whole aes sedai thing (nynaeve, elayne and the other one), is starting to piss me off.
he needs to write a cracker that seriously develops, if not finishes the story, next time. 'else he's in serious danger of becoming a sell-out.
however, i will say that the first 5 books of the wheel of time were fuckin' A. the 6th was in danger of dyin' until the battle at dumai's wells - great piece of writing, and the last two haven't been great.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 May 23rd 8:21 AM
I agree with Ran that length is a pretty awful way to judge the merits of a book. RJ's problem was that he added plots and subplots to his story for the purpose of lengthening the story. So, the expansion of his series is more or less intentional. We see characters and subplots added at a very late stage when neither the existence of the character or the need for the subplot was in evidence. Cadsuane strikes me as a character added solely for the purposes of lengthening the story. I mean, if she truly was this legendary character, you'd think we'd have heard of her before her surprise introduction. And the whole "Bowl of the Winds" thing is an added subplot that took a whole book to resolve, without any meaningful impact on the story. Not to mention his habit of reviving supposedly dead characters.

I think Martin knew exactly where he wanted to go with his story. It grew from 4 to 6 books because he realized during the writing that it was just taking longer to tell the story he wanted to tell than he thought it would. So the lengthening of ASOIAF was _story_ driven, not profit driven. I think that makes all the difference.

Omer
User ID: 9014973 May 23rd 12:38 PM
Jeff - I don't think Jordan WANTS to make his series longer. at least not consciouncely. I think Jordan doesn't know... just where he's going, to quote Lou Reed. So the books suffer from an issue of an author searching for his path, and his success makes him immune to editing.

Green Gerg
User ID: 0081374 May 23rd 12:47 PM
I haven't read any of Jordan's novels, but based on "New Spring," I don't think he's a very talented fantasy writer. Let me preface by noting that after a childhood spent adoring Burroughs and Howard, and then enjoying LOTR, Elric, Amber, and Fafhrd & GM series, I consciously avoided almost all mainstream fantasy from the late '70s onwards like the plague (save for the "Dark Tower" books and some O.S. Card), feeling much the same about it as I've heard GRRM state. I was a big fan of George from his scifi/horror stories and novels, really, and had no idea until I read them that AGOT and ACOK would be so utterly brilliant and resurrect fantasy as a genre for me. Anyway, upon buying "Legends" I dutifully read every story out of curiosity, and liked some of them quite a bit, but the Jordan tale not only was one of the poorest, it made me really wonder why he's so popular. The characters and actions seemed patently unrealistic (nor, on the opposite extreme, very arrestingly "mythic"), the writing did not "sing" at all, wit was nonexistent, and as others have mentioned, the female characters were unbelievably annoying and a real turn-off. In a most basic sense, no literary "magic" was conjured---the overall mood was unpleasant and one-dimensional.
No offense to any RJ fans, but as somewhat of an outsider to the stultifying fantasy novel subculture/book industry that seems to have concretized in the last 20 years, the difference between ASOIAF and the example of Jordanian writing I encountered could not have been more obvious.
And size does not matter. Someone insistently gave me a Piers Anthony book to read awhile back, and it was both very short and very poorly written.

labor
User ID: 0798784 May 23rd 2:30 PM
Mm... GreenGerg I think that you are being a little unfair. One shouldn't judge all of the modern fantasy by its more mediocre specimens. Piers Anthony? Brrr... I mean Brooks wrote at the same time as Zelazny and Moorcock, didn't he? There is really good modern fantasy out there, but as always it is a grain of gold in the pile of sand.

BTW, there is a lot of very good old fantasy out there as well. I have only recently read Vance's "Lyonesse" (sadly only book 1, it is out of print) and fell in love with it. And "The once and future king" by T.H. White is brilliant as well.I'll be tackling Lord Dunsany next.
In fact, I think about buying everything which comes out in the "Fantasy Masterworks" series. As I have found reading T.H. White, the test of time (incidentially 50 years IIRC) really works.

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 May 23rd 10:00 PM
Omer, I thought I had read something about WOT initially being set for a certain number of books, then Tor and RJ changed that after they saw how successful the first book or two was. Can't remember where I heard that, though.

Nynaeve
User ID: 2345204 May 24th 0:13 AM
Well, I agree with the majority of you. WOT started off WONDERFUL and has since deteriorated. Let me tell you why it hooked me at first. I hadn't touched a fantasy book in 8 years. And half-way through EotW, Jordan had taken my favorite fantasty authors/stories (Tolkien, Brooks, Donaldson) and TWISTED them, so to speak. He added more women. He worked within the confines of standard high-fantasy and tweaked it. I loved it! RJ started losing his way around book 5, I agree. Now I'll scream if I have to read one more thing about sniffing, arms folding under breasts, and the ultra-self-righteous downright annoying Wise Ones. I can't keep track of the characters - who, for the most part, are totally dispensible. I'm also sick of the whole Aes Sedai culture inundating most of the BBs dedicated to Jordan (so&so Sedai I'm 14 and I'll balefire you if you don't like my posts!) Also, he has fashioned the OP as such that there is nothing out of reach anymore. I miss the days of riding horses, of building a fire, of...well, simple high fantasy.

I really hope RJ gathers himself and his story threads together. We'll know more after Winter's Heart. Personally, I think he's aware of the backlash and hopefully Book 9 will do something about it. But in defense of him, there are still some Nynaeve scenes in the earlier books that I will always adore. Her character in the first three or four books had depth and fire. And how could I not adore the writing of anyone who's pissed off 24/7 like me. :)

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 May 24th 12:27 PM
Nynaeve, it sounds to me like you played your namesake's part during the first few books, and then they used some bit actress for the role during the remainder of the series :)

I agree with what you say about the next book, but I also think RJ has already alienated a good portion of his initial readership. Will they come back? I don't know.

sparhawk
User ID: 0436494 May 24th 1:06 PM
damn right, ser gary. -but do you think he know's that?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 24th 1:11 PM
Well, here's the thing.

He's alienated a lot of them, but most of them are still planning to see the series through. Folk who've made a commitment through 6-7 okay-to-good books will ride out any number of bad books, usually, to see it to the end.

Green Gerg
User ID: 0081374 May 24th 1:23 PM
Well, I guess I was being unfair, Labor, or maybe just generalizing a bit. I loved fantasy as a kid and now, thanks to Martin, I love it again. I am humble enough to state with certainty that there's lots of great modern fantasy out there I just have yet to encounter. Jordan though?
I was just attempting to show that I came to most of the "Legends" authors with no prior experience (save for GRRM, King, and Card) and an open mind, and couldn't fathom why Jordan, of all of them, would be so popular. As I said, I enjoyed some of the other tales, particular the elegantly written Tad Williams story and the fascinating Silverberg mystery (I plan to get the relevant novels from both authors). I agree with the guy on Amazon who said: "Storywise, the only dud in the bunch is the last one-"New Spring"-this story was virtually incomprehensible and impenetrable to me, and represented all of the reasons why I don't like fantasy books." As for Vance, I just won "The Compleat Dying Earth" on eBay, based on GRRM's accolades, and plan to read it on my vacation next week. I've owned "Once and Future King" for awhile but never got around to it, but I plan to this summer for sure...

Green Gerg
User ID: 0081374 May 24th 1:27 PM
Well, I guess I was being unfair, Labor, or maybe just generalizing a bit. I loved fantasy as a kid and now, thanks to Martin, I love it again. I am humble enough to state with certainty that there's lots of great modern fantasy out there I just have yet to encounter. Jordan though?
I was just attempting to show that I came to most of the "Legends" authors with no prior experience (save for GRRM, King, and Card) and an open mind, and couldn't fathom why Jordan, of all of them, would be so popular. As I said, I enjoyed some of the other tales, particular the elegantly written Tad Williams story and the fascinating Silverberg mystery (I plan to get the relevant novels from both authors). I agree with the guy on Amazon who said: "Storywise, the only dud in the bunch is the last one-"New Spring"-this story was virtually incomprehensible and impenetrable to me, and represented all of the reasons why I don't like fantasy books." As for Vance, I just won "The Compleat Dying Earth" on eBay, based on GRRM's accolades, and plan to read it on my vacation next week. I've owned "Once and Future King" for awhile but never got around to it, but I plan to this summer for sure...

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 May 24th 3:32 PM
Sparhawk,
You're right. I think RJ's totally oblivious to the fact that he's alienated so many. The other question is, "does he really care?"

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 May 24th 4:40 PM
I'll read the rest of WOT. But only get the books the same way I got the last 2. At the library, free of charge.

I've got the money to buy them new, but refuse to give up anymore money. Knowing that I was reading "for free" made the pathetic POD a little bit more fun than it deserved.

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 May 24th 6:09 PM
Jeff, you were smarter than I was. I thought in POD that RJ would redeem himself so I bought it. Big mistake. Period. I'll go to library for Winter's Heart.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 May 25th 7:25 AM
Moreta,
After you read Winter's Heart, why don't you give us a critique here - that will help me to decide if I even want to check it out of a library.

Next 20 Messages

Lodengarl User ID: 0875014	May 22nd 5:37 PM Liam McDonald said it best with the following concerning James Oliver Rigney, Jr. (RJ) "Back in the 1980's Jordan was busy desecrating the work of a writer with actual talent - Robert E. Howard - by turning out a series of badly written novels about Howard's Conan the Barbarian. EotW clicked in large part due to a massive marketing push by publisher Tor Books, where Jordan's wife was an editor. Bloated pros is common: "It is a year of strangers; of a lady; and a gleeman with his tales of heroes; and a peddler with news of the present - of war with Ghealdan, far away; and of the rising of a false dragon - the savior whose coming foretold and dreaded, will bring a new Breaking to the world" etc. blah blah Good fantasy writers rarely go on so. Mervyne Peake and ER Eddison turned out tight, brilliant trilogies. All the Conan stories actually written by Howard can fit in three slim paperbacks. Yet the strained Xanth novels of Piers Anthony number somewhere in the twenties, and the life and loves of Rand and the rest go on long after their meager interest was tapped."
Lodengarl User ID: 0875014	May 22nd 5:42 PM GRRM does not waste space in my opinion...he does not lead a band of people for hundreds of pages only to have them bailed out at the last minute - making the reader feel cheated. RJ is exhausting and his work is rather painful to get through - through masichism he rewards us with epic scenes, yet GRRM feeds us fat and rich, dripping, greasy, filling characters and scenes like stout ale or a blood pie...for me, there is no comparison, aSoI&F is a true orgy of reading, with every desire and viewpoint fulfilled.
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 22nd 6:08 PM And about three-quarters of those stories from Howard are tripe. Desecrating? It's only desecrating if you ignore the trash he wrote, but yes indeed, he was talented. James Branch Cabell wrote an octodecacology (18 volume -- actually 20, though) series which was hugely popular in his time and he was spoken of in the same breath as F. Scott FitzGerald, and some of them (like Jurgen) are actually under-rated examples of some of America's finest novels. And Glen Cook has gone on past his original trilogy, and no one calls him a bad writer (though some point to individual books and say they're bad, but more on this later.) And Roger Zelazny wrote a nice, tight 5-novel series (Amber.) And then he followed it up with the terrible five after that, but he's not a bad writer. And Gene Wolfe has written a multi-book series (his "Sun" books) which has garnered much acclaim, even while others have gotten mediocre receptions because they seem to be ineffectually trying to close up loose ends which keep piling up, yet he's certainly not a bad writer. And so on. Comparisons of size tend to be silly when they're put together as Mr. McDonald puts it together. It's one thing to analyze closely the issue of why Howard was so compact and Jordan wasn't (market -- there is was no market for non-Howard short Conan stories at the time, there was a market for non-Howard Conan novels at the time). But to point to it as some sort of imperical proof is shoddy reasoning. It's one thing to say that Jordan's series has expanded out of all proportion with the story being, over the last two novels, slow and painful dreck filled with repetitious, lifeless characterizations and scenery descriptions, and then to say that Mervyn Peake and E.R. Edison wrote very tight stories. But it's shoddy reasoning when you ignore that slim story collections and tight little trilogies are not the end all and be all of fiction, more or less. Good, very-big series can be written. They have been written. And bad very-big series have been and are being written. It doesn't _necessarily_ mean the author is a talentless hack. Maybe a good sign, but not proof in and of itself. I don't like RJ's series. He started relatively well, and I do think he has some talent, but it's very bad now. But Mr. McDonald's points are specious in any case. If writing a bad book, or even several bad books, means you're a bad writer, than someone like Joseph Conrad (whose first book _The Spy_ was a terribl novel) shouldn't have dared to write _Heart of Darkness_ and _Lord Jim_. So, clearly, writing a bad book is not the same as being a bad writer. Is RJ a bad writer? In a limited sense -- he seems to have no aptitude for reigning in his story. Going from four to six books early on is okay, or even further -- so long as you put a firm stop to it at some point and stick by your guns. He hasn't done that, which is a shame, and it means his last books have been mostly pointless drivel. But is he a bad writer in the larger sense? No, I don't think so. _The Eye of the World_ was a good novel. The ideas that he put into it were refreshingly neat, and some of the passages he wrote were really rather elegantly powerful (Moiraine recounting the last days of Manetheren remains my favorite of all the scenes he's written). Does Mr. McDonald go further than this in his assessment of Jordan? Or is he, simply, entirely uninterested in mainstream epic fantasy (suggested by the fact that he points to pulpy Howard, ignoring all of his stinkers, and literary Edison and Peake)? <pokes around the Internet.>
Lodengarl User ID: 0875014	May 22nd 7:29 PM I just liked the example....I do not care for the WOT series. Ran, nice post! Interesting comment I thought I would post. I think right now I am suffering from a classic case of bandwaggon loathing...everytime I am in a book store and see a "teen" grab Path of Daggers I want to shove some Leiber, Pratchett, UKL, or GRRM in his hand -I was also thrown onto the waggon when friends "made" me purchase the books, acclaiming "the best fantasy since Tolkien" and I felt sick after reading through them.
sparhawk User ID: 0436494	May 23rd 5:23 AM jordan started out pretty well, and there's still time to redeem himself, IMO. however, it is running out. i think he has succumbed to commercialism. if he drags out the series, more books will be bought, making him more money. his jlast two books haven't been great, and the whole aes sedai thing (nynaeve, elayne and the other one), is starting to piss me off. he needs to write a cracker that seriously develops, if not finishes the story, next time. 'else he's in serious danger of becoming a sell-out. however, i will say that the first 5 books of the wheel of time were fuckin' A. the 6th was in danger of dyin' until the battle at dumai's wells - great piece of writing, and the last two haven't been great.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	May 23rd 8:21 AM I agree with Ran that length is a pretty awful way to judge the merits of a book. RJ's problem was that he added plots and subplots to his story for the purpose of lengthening the story. So, the expansion of his series is more or less intentional. We see characters and subplots added at a very late stage when neither the existence of the character or the need for the subplot was in evidence. Cadsuane strikes me as a character added solely for the purposes of lengthening the story. I mean, if she truly was this legendary character, you'd think we'd have heard of her before her surprise introduction. And the whole "Bowl of the Winds" thing is an added subplot that took a whole book to resolve, without any meaningful impact on the story. Not to mention his habit of reviving supposedly dead characters. I think Martin knew exactly where he wanted to go with his story. It grew from 4 to 6 books because he realized during the writing that it was just taking longer to tell the story he wanted to tell than he thought it would. So the lengthening of ASOIAF was _story_ driven, not profit driven. I think that makes all the difference.
Omer User ID: 9014973	May 23rd 12:38 PM Jeff - I don't think Jordan WANTS to make his series longer. at least not consciouncely. I think Jordan doesn't know... just where he's going, to quote Lou Reed. So the books suffer from an issue of an author searching for his path, and his success makes him immune to editing.
Green Gerg User ID: 0081374	May 23rd 12:47 PM I haven't read any of Jordan's novels, but based on "New Spring," I don't think he's a very talented fantasy writer. Let me preface by noting that after a childhood spent adoring Burroughs and Howard, and then enjoying LOTR, Elric, Amber, and Fafhrd & GM series, I consciously avoided almost all mainstream fantasy from the late '70s onwards like the plague (save for the "Dark Tower" books and some O.S. Card), feeling much the same about it as I've heard GRRM state. I was a big fan of George from his scifi/horror stories and novels, really, and had no idea until I read them that AGOT and ACOK would be so utterly brilliant and resurrect fantasy as a genre for me. Anyway, upon buying "Legends" I dutifully read every story out of curiosity, and liked some of them quite a bit, but the Jordan tale not only was one of the poorest, it made me really wonder why he's so popular. The characters and actions seemed patently unrealistic (nor, on the opposite extreme, very arrestingly "mythic"), the writing did not "sing" at all, wit was nonexistent, and as others have mentioned, the female characters were unbelievably annoying and a real turn-off. In a most basic sense, no literary "magic" was conjured---the overall mood was unpleasant and one-dimensional. No offense to any RJ fans, but as somewhat of an outsider to the stultifying fantasy novel subculture/book industry that seems to have concretized in the last 20 years, the difference between ASOIAF and the example of Jordanian writing I encountered could not have been more obvious. And size does not matter. Someone insistently gave me a Piers Anthony book to read awhile back, and it was both very short and very poorly written.
labor User ID: 0798784	May 23rd 2:30 PM Mm... GreenGerg I think that you are being a little unfair. One shouldn't judge all of the modern fantasy by its more mediocre specimens. Piers Anthony? Brrr... I mean Brooks wrote at the same time as Zelazny and Moorcock, didn't he? There is really good modern fantasy out there, but as always it is a grain of gold in the pile of sand. BTW, there is a lot of very good old fantasy out there as well. I have only recently read Vance's "Lyonesse" (sadly only book 1, it is out of print) and fell in love with it. And "The once and future king" by T.H. White is brilliant as well.I'll be tackling Lord Dunsany next. In fact, I think about buying everything which comes out in the "Fantasy Masterworks" series. As I have found reading T.H. White, the test of time (incidentially 50 years IIRC) really works.
Jeff User ID: 8813033	May 23rd 10:00 PM Omer, I thought I had read something about WOT initially being set for a certain number of books, then Tor and RJ changed that after they saw how successful the first book or two was. Can't remember where I heard that, though.
Nynaeve User ID: 2345204	May 24th 0:13 AM Well, I agree with the majority of you. WOT started off WONDERFUL and has since deteriorated. Let me tell you why it hooked me at first. I hadn't touched a fantasy book in 8 years. And half-way through EotW, Jordan had taken my favorite fantasty authors/stories (Tolkien, Brooks, Donaldson) and TWISTED them, so to speak. He added more women. He worked within the confines of standard high-fantasy and tweaked it. I loved it! RJ started losing his way around book 5, I agree. Now I'll scream if I have to read one more thing about sniffing, arms folding under breasts, and the ultra-self-righteous downright annoying Wise Ones. I can't keep track of the characters - who, for the most part, are totally dispensible. I'm also sick of the whole Aes Sedai culture inundating most of the BBs dedicated to Jordan (so&so Sedai I'm 14 and I'll balefire you if you don't like my posts!) Also, he has fashioned the OP as such that there is nothing out of reach anymore. I miss the days of riding horses, of building a fire, of...well, simple high fantasy. I really hope RJ gathers himself and his story threads together. We'll know more after Winter's Heart. Personally, I think he's aware of the backlash and hopefully Book 9 will do something about it. But in defense of him, there are still some Nynaeve scenes in the earlier books that I will always adore. Her character in the first three or four books had depth and fire. And how could I not adore the writing of anyone who's pissed off 24/7 like me. :)
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	May 24th 12:27 PM Nynaeve, it sounds to me like you played your namesake's part during the first few books, and then they used some bit actress for the role during the remainder of the series :) I agree with what you say about the next book, but I also think RJ has already alienated a good portion of his initial readership. Will they come back? I don't know.
sparhawk User ID: 0436494	May 24th 1:06 PM damn right, ser gary. -but do you think he know's that?
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 24th 1:11 PM Well, here's the thing. He's alienated a lot of them, but most of them are still planning to see the series through. Folk who've made a commitment through 6-7 okay-to-good books will ride out any number of bad books, usually, to see it to the end.
Green Gerg User ID: 0081374	May 24th 1:23 PM Well, I guess I was being unfair, Labor, or maybe just generalizing a bit. I loved fantasy as a kid and now, thanks to Martin, I love it again. I am humble enough to state with certainty that there's lots of great modern fantasy out there I just have yet to encounter. Jordan though? I was just attempting to show that I came to most of the "Legends" authors with no prior experience (save for GRRM, King, and Card) and an open mind, and couldn't fathom why Jordan, of all of them, would be so popular. As I said, I enjoyed some of the other tales, particular the elegantly written Tad Williams story and the fascinating Silverberg mystery (I plan to get the relevant novels from both authors). I agree with the guy on Amazon who said: "Storywise, the only dud in the bunch is the last one-"New Spring"-this story was virtually incomprehensible and impenetrable to me, and represented all of the reasons why I don't like fantasy books." As for Vance, I just won "The Compleat Dying Earth" on eBay, based on GRRM's accolades, and plan to read it on my vacation next week. I've owned "Once and Future King" for awhile but never got around to it, but I plan to this summer for sure...
Green Gerg User ID: 0081374	May 24th 1:27 PM Well, I guess I was being unfair, Labor, or maybe just generalizing a bit. I loved fantasy as a kid and now, thanks to Martin, I love it again. I am humble enough to state with certainty that there's lots of great modern fantasy out there I just have yet to encounter. Jordan though? I was just attempting to show that I came to most of the "Legends" authors with no prior experience (save for GRRM, King, and Card) and an open mind, and couldn't fathom why Jordan, of all of them, would be so popular. As I said, I enjoyed some of the other tales, particular the elegantly written Tad Williams story and the fascinating Silverberg mystery (I plan to get the relevant novels from both authors). I agree with the guy on Amazon who said: "Storywise, the only dud in the bunch is the last one-"New Spring"-this story was virtually incomprehensible and impenetrable to me, and represented all of the reasons why I don't like fantasy books." As for Vance, I just won "The Compleat Dying Earth" on eBay, based on GRRM's accolades, and plan to read it on my vacation next week. I've owned "Once and Future King" for awhile but never got around to it, but I plan to this summer for sure...
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	May 24th 3:32 PM Sparhawk, You're right. I think RJ's totally oblivious to the fact that he's alienated so many. The other question is, "does he really care?"
Jeff User ID: 8813033	May 24th 4:40 PM I'll read the rest of WOT. But only get the books the same way I got the last 2. At the library, free of charge. I've got the money to buy them new, but refuse to give up anymore money. Knowing that I was reading "for free" made the pathetic POD a little bit more fun than it deserved.
Moreta User ID: 0701364	May 24th 6:09 PM Jeff, you were smarter than I was. I thought in POD that RJ would redeem himself so I bought it. Big mistake. Period. I'll go to library for Winter's Heart.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	May 25th 7:25 AM Moreta, After you read Winter's Heart, why don't you give us a critique here - that will help me to decide if I even want to check it out of a library.