A mirror of the eeesite "A Song of Ice and Fire"

This is a mirror of the now defunct eesite ASOIAF webboard.

The discussions for G.R.R. Martin's awesome series "A Song of Ice and Fire" are now being held at: Current ASoIaF Webboard

You cannot post new messages to this board. Go to the Current ASoIaF Webboard for the most current discussions.

A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Nits to Pick

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Dirjj
User ID: 3758924 Apr 23rd 11:59 PM
Hey, I remember that on the original (ah the memory brings a moistness to my eyes) message board, we has a section about nit-picking. Some pretty raucous conversation ensure there. Well I have some:

1. Dammit, we need more maps

2. How many cities are in Westeros? I can only really count maybe 4.
a) Winterfell - Castle/Fortress
b) Karhold - Castle/Fortress
c) Deepwood Motte - Castle/Fortress
d) Torrhens Square - Fortress/City?
e) White Harbor - City/Fortress
f) Riverrun - Castle/Fortress
g) Lannisport - City
h) Casterly Rock - Fortress/City?
i) Highgarden - City/Fortress
j) Oldtown - City/Fortress
k) Pyke - Castle/Fortress
l) Storms End - Castle/Fortress
m) Kings Landing - City/Fortress
n) Harrenhal - Castle/Fortress
o) Dragonstone - Castle/Village
p) Sunspear?
q) Starfall?
See what I mean. I may have left some out, but I was beginning to ramble. Martin may tell a great story, but his demographrics could use a little help from great demographers like Jordan and Eddings. I mean basically, Martins demographic style is closer to Tokien and Williams.

3. Why does he mention the Martells or Dorne at all? So far in the first two books, they haven't done squat!! What's so great about them? They didn't take sides in the Rebellion, and they haven't really taken part in the Kingstrife. I suppose that since Myrcella is over there now, maybe we'll hear something more of them, and maybe even get a P.O.V. from her in the next book. Highly unlikely.

4. Where do these people get money from? I can understand the Lannisters (gold) and the Tyrells (food), maybe even the Greyjoys (iron) maybe. But what about everyone else? How do the Starks get money? There's nothing of value in the north thats worth anything, especially in the South. The Barratheons either. Stannis didn't have squat where he was, and all Renly could probably do was sell trees. Get my meaning? It only seems like the Kingdom was wealthy under the Targaryons by taxing people in King's Landing. I mean thats the way things look.

4. I know people are going to quip about the gratuitous sex and violence. So there, I beat you to it. I didn't have a problem with the Sex, there wasn't enough violence for my taste. I mean there were battles, but most of them were only briefly summarized. Jordan is only ok at battles. He's not special. Terry Brooks is king when it comes to battles!!!

There, you went and made me ramble. Sorry.

ab

labor
User ID: 8479113 Apr 24th 0:16 AM
Taxation: I am under impression that all of the realm pays taxes, not just King's Landing. I remember that Lord Manderly wanted to exchange the tax officers in White Harbor, because the old ones were hoarding tax silver for Jeoffrey instead of paying it into Robb's treasury.

Regional products:

North - fur, animal products and IIRC some iron and copper mines, likely rare wood as well.

Dorne: wines, silver (?), cloth

Arbor: wines

Iron Isles: iron and tin

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Apr 24th 2:12 AM
Dirjj:

1) We're getting them, Martin has said. ;)

2) Ashford, Bitterbridge, Maidenpool, Duskendale, Mummer's Ford, all sorts of villages along the Kingsroad . . .

He has a _lot_ of villages and towns and castles. But why should he name them all? The actual 'cities' are 'just' Highgarden, King's Landing, Lannisport, Old Town. Perhaps throw in Sunspear (as we know nothing of it as of yet.)

I think the few true 'cities' suggests that the Seven Kingdoms is a largely diffuse and rural population -- which is typical.

Interstingly, I don't consider Jordan or Eddings great demographers. Tolkien is rather better. ;)

3) They're the only kingdom not to be conquered by Aegon. Elia was of Dorne. The Martells are separate in some culture facets from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Etc., etc. We're going to see them... but, to give an example, Jordan has Altara, Tarabon, etc. listed on his map from the the beginning. Altara doesn't even make an apperance until the 6th book or so. Why mention it so early then? Because it's there. ;)

4) What labor says.

4 (take 2)) He's written quite enough for me. Whispering Woods, Roose vs. Tywin, Stannis against King's Landing, the overthrow of the Lannisters in Harrenhal . . . nice and realistic without (honestly) going into gratuitous "battle every twenty pages" mode.

Arion
User ID: 1139804 Apr 26th 6:26 PM
My favorite nit -- in AGoT at the grand banquet for King Robert in Winterfells Hall, all the children are introduced from both the Stark and Lannister family EXCEPT Bran. Martin forgets to have him in the parade (and this occurs before Brans fall). When asked about it, Martin basically says "oops!" Bran was there as he later has memories of that night, but he is never mentioned. As for cities: Doesn't Theon arrive in a city near the Iron Islands and sack a bunch more cities on his way to take Winterfell?

labor Apr 26th 6:36 PM

Here are some nitpicks from the other areas:

Edric Storm. The boy was ostensibly conceived during Stannises wedding feast, yet he is said to be 7 or 8 while Stannises and Selyse's daughter is 10. Even if he is small for his age, no one should have trouble to recall the year of Stannis'es wedding...

In the scene where Barristan Selmy is dismissed, Pycelle reads a long list of Lords and their heirs summoned to swear their oaths of fealty to Joeffry under the pain of being proclaimed traitors and have their lands forfeited. Stannis Baratheon and Sheila Whent are on the list. Yet in the very next document Stannis is already named traitor and Sheila is disposessed of Harrenhal.
Also on the list are Prince of Dorne and all his sons (his heir is the daughter) and Mace Tyrell and his brothers (he has none).

The whole story of Ned's and Robert's fostering in the Vale of Arryn. Ned was such a perfect Northman and was so close with Lyanna (4-5 years his junior), yet he apparently was ward of Lord Arryn since he was 8(???). Perhaps he stayed a few years there, then went North and then returned? Robert's being in the Vale when he already became the Lord of Storm's End is also quite unexplicable. From what we have seen ruling a lordship involves a lot of work and in absentia the things tend to deteritoriate. Also, Robert was home in time to witness his parents drown, but then apparently returned to the Vale.

Being Aerys's Hand Tywin Lannister apparently spent a lot of time at Casterly Rock. Cersei and Tyrion constantly mention him when reminescing about their childhood there (Tyrion even never was to King's Landing until Cersei's wedding). Shouldn't he be sitting in King's Landing instead?

Markus
User ID: 2547224 Apr 26th 7:34 PM
The timing of Steffon's and Cassana's death is even more peculiar, since it was probably before Rhaegar married, which would mean that Renly should have had a hard time to be even born, if Rhaenys was older than 4 as she died.

But then, Renly isn't GRRM's strength, he was already older in AGoT than ACoK and had green eyes, instead of blue.

Further, I wonder if GRRM has forgotten Medger Cerwyn's 30 year old daughter, who was supposed to accompany her now dead father south.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Apr 27th 0:22 AM
Now that Martin explained the issue of Bran, not exactly a nit anymore, but I see the point. ;)

As to the orders read -- does anyone find it surprising that the Lannisters would say 'So and so can keep their lands' and then turn around and say 'Here, you get there lands?' Not so much a nitpick, I think, as an observation.

Also don't have any particular problem with Dorne -- 'sons' can stand in as the genderless for 'children' just as 'he' can act as the genderless pronoun. The Tyrell one . . . a bit more of a stretch, but I suppose one could put that in as well. It does seem more like a flub to me though.

The rest isn't problematic so much as curious though -- we really have no idea at these chronologies, it's not all that improbable of visiting back and forth for extended periods.

Good points though.

Markus:

I suppose then that she wouldn't be older than 4. Not something that I ever thought about much, but that sounds about the right age all considered.

oba
User ID: 8987493 Apr 29th 1:03 PM
Labor, I think your post is right on, except for the points about Robert Baratheon's having fostered after he was already the Lord of Storm's End and that Ned, as a fosterling, couldn't have developed a close relationship with his family. Look at the situation with young Robert Arryn in AGOT. He's the Lord of the Eyrie after his father Jon's death. But, Stannis, Tywin (albeit for suspicious motives), Ned, and even Lord Frey all make offers to foster the boy. I assume with Robert Baratheon a castellan was set up in his place. Now, this argument might be a bit of a stretch, but, perhaps fostering in Westeros is, in many cases, more like boarding school (Theon's situation was clearly different). Maybe Ned was allowed back home for birthdays, important events, or just the occasional trip to go see the folks.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Apr 29th 1:33 PM

oba, curious in Robert's situation was that he was still in the Vale after becoming a "man grown". We have seen that even 14-year old heirs (Robb, Cley Cerwyn, Lord Bar Emmon) take hand in ruling of the estates if their fathers are absent. And wasn't Robert Arryn's sickliness and abnormal developement the main official rationale for fostering him out?
But it could be just one more illustration of Robert's irresponsibility and inability to rule. No doubt poor Stannis was playing "the Baratheon" in Storm's End, while Robert was amusing himself in the Vale.

Duke Dirjj
User ID: 9990163 Apr 29th 2:25 PM
Regarding Demographics, How can you say that you don't think Eddings & Jordan were good demographers. Maybe demographics isn't the right word to use, but each author had at least 10 major cities displayed on their respective Maps. Eddings has much more than 10. I guess my main nit here is that Westeros is supposed to be some rich and powerful land, but their are more cities on the other side of the narrow sea.

Also, regarding battles, I guess I must concede this nit due to the fact that the this story is told through the P.O.V's of the characters, and the only parts of a battle that are allowed to us are what they see.

ab

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Apr 29th 2:41 PM

Powerful? Sure. Lots of people. Rich? Well .. big land, lots of natural resources, guess this works.

But highly advanced culturally and socially? Probably not. Remember, the Free Cities seem to have belonged to the Valyrian empire. They developed to tremendously high levels, and even though there may be something of a decline after the Doom, these places are still tremendously huge as cities compared to what the Seven Kingdoms has.

The largest city in the Seven Kingdoms is King's Landing, which "is more populous than medieval London or Paris, but not so populous as medieval Constantinople or ancient Rome." (Martin, Legends Board, Feb. 9 1999)

This puts it at something between 60k to 100k. Not very large at all.

Martin lists several cities and potential cities, but I think the lack of them (and the profusion of towns) suggests that the Seven Kingdoms just isn't there yet. Its population is largely centered rurally, with a lot of villages, quite a few towns, and a handful of cities to round things out.

This makes sense to me, anyhow.

labor Apr 30th 10:42 AM

Here is another series of nits:

There are many more men than women in the noble families whose membership is listed in the appendices.
One has an impression that hardly any man died of illnesses, tourney/hunting incidents etc. Also, seemingly no members of prominent noble Houses listed were killed during the war of the Usurper (except Targaryens), which is strange to say the least.

How did Lord Paxter Redwyne manage to call his banners and reach the rest of the Tyrell force in time to be at the battle of King's Landing?

Min
User ID: 9433023 Apr 30th 10:50 AM
As for Sex and battles: SOIF has the right amount of it in every way. Violence and sex are a part of our lifes, and I want to read about them in a book if it is to capture me and if it is to be credible. GRRM does it the right way.
I hate those stories about an innocent princess and a beaming hero: They love each other passionately, but never touch until they marry at the end of the book. And even then you can just guess it. That's (sorry) bullshit.

Jeff
User ID: 8506593 Apr 30th 10:54 AM
labor, I don't think that GRRM includes _all_ nobles in his listings, men or women. He tends just to include the more important ones. And, the reality is that men generally play a far more important role in the political/military struggles of Westeros, just as they did in medeival Europe.

labor Apr 30th 11:49 AM

Jeff, he includes all siblings/progeny of the given Lord. Look at the Frey listing - anyone up to grand-grand whatever daughters is mentioned. Even a few bastard (grand) daughters have the honor. I guess he just didn't think it out.

Kay-Arne Hansen
User ID: 9209903 Apr 30th 11:52 AM
labor:

Was Paxter Redwyne mentioned as being with the Tyrell forces in the battle itself? That would be strange indeed. I thought he just appeared afterwards...

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Apr 30th 12:00 PM
Lord Paxter is listed as coming down among the 'other heroes of the Battle of the Blackwater.'

But this doesn't seem so difficult -- he's Mace Tyrells oldest friend. After Renly's death, he might have decided to drop over to Highgarden to discuss matters. He would have brought some sort of escort.

Then Littlefinger shows up at Bitterbridge, word is taken of how he's brought Paxter's twins, and things fall to place.

Of course, how they get from Highgarden to King's Landing so swiftly when everyone else was much nearer to the city (being in the area of Bitterbridge) . . .

That is, perhaps, trickier. I suppose there's enough time between Renly's death and Littlefinger heading to Bitterbridge and the battle to account for anyone moving from Highgarden to Bitterbridge without delaying the rest of the trip too much.

Markus
User ID: 2547224 Apr 30th 12:01 PM
[Paxter Redwyne's presence in King's Landing]

labor, perhaps armies aren't as slow or distances as large in Westeros as you seem to believe.:)

I guess, that once Littlefinger reached Bitterbridge with Hobber, a bird was sent to the Arbor, whereupon Redwyne shipped to Oldtown and marched to Bitterbridge just in time.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Apr 30th 12:05 PM
I think Martin gives all suggestion of fairly realistic travel.

Even so, however -- if Paxter Redwyne is in Highgarden when the message arrives, and goes with Mace Tyrell (and cavalry) to Bitterbridge . . .

Perhaps 40 miles a day, given the good road conditions. No more than 50 miles a day. The distance is a little shy of the length of the Wall, so lets call it an estimated 280 miles. That's a week in travel time at most if they move immediately (which I don't see as unlikely.)

Jeff
User ID: 8506593 Apr 30th 12:20 PM
Ran, is that 40-50 miles/day for just mounted troops? I think that's very high even for cavalry, at least for a week. For infantry, its virtually impossible.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Dirjj User ID: 3758924	Apr 23rd 11:59 PM Hey, I remember that on the original (ah the memory brings a moistness to my eyes) message board, we has a section about nit-picking. Some pretty raucous conversation ensure there. Well I have some: 1. Dammit, we need more maps 2. How many cities are in Westeros? I can only really count maybe 4. a) Winterfell - Castle/Fortress b) Karhold - Castle/Fortress c) Deepwood Motte - Castle/Fortress d) Torrhens Square - Fortress/City? e) White Harbor - City/Fortress f) Riverrun - Castle/Fortress g) Lannisport - City h) Casterly Rock - Fortress/City? i) Highgarden - City/Fortress j) Oldtown - City/Fortress k) Pyke - Castle/Fortress l) Storms End - Castle/Fortress m) Kings Landing - City/Fortress n) Harrenhal - Castle/Fortress o) Dragonstone - Castle/Village p) Sunspear? q) Starfall? See what I mean. I may have left some out, but I was beginning to ramble. Martin may tell a great story, but his demographrics could use a little help from great demographers like Jordan and Eddings. I mean basically, Martins demographic style is closer to Tokien and Williams. 3. Why does he mention the Martells or Dorne at all? So far in the first two books, they haven't done squat!! What's so great about them? They didn't take sides in the Rebellion, and they haven't really taken part in the Kingstrife. I suppose that since Myrcella is over there now, maybe we'll hear something more of them, and maybe even get a P.O.V. from her in the next book. Highly unlikely. 4. Where do these people get money from? I can understand the Lannisters (gold) and the Tyrells (food), maybe even the Greyjoys (iron) maybe. But what about everyone else? How do the Starks get money? There's nothing of value in the north thats worth anything, especially in the South. The Barratheons either. Stannis didn't have squat where he was, and all Renly could probably do was sell trees. Get my meaning? It only seems like the Kingdom was wealthy under the Targaryons by taxing people in King's Landing. I mean thats the way things look. 4. I know people are going to quip about the gratuitous sex and violence. So there, I beat you to it. I didn't have a problem with the Sex, there wasn't enough violence for my taste. I mean there were battles, but most of them were only briefly summarized. Jordan is only ok at battles. He's not special. Terry Brooks is king when it comes to battles!!! There, you went and made me ramble. Sorry. ab
labor User ID: 8479113	Apr 24th 0:16 AM Taxation: I am under impression that all of the realm pays taxes, not just King's Landing. I remember that Lord Manderly wanted to exchange the tax officers in White Harbor, because the old ones were hoarding tax silver for Jeoffrey instead of paying it into Robb's treasury. Regional products: North - fur, animal products and IIRC some iron and copper mines, likely rare wood as well. Dorne: wines, silver (?), cloth Arbor: wines Iron Isles: iron and tin
Ran User ID: 0283314	Apr 24th 2:12 AM Dirjj: 1) We're getting them, Martin has said. ;) 2) Ashford, Bitterbridge, Maidenpool, Duskendale, Mummer's Ford, all sorts of villages along the Kingsroad . . . He has a _lot_ of villages and towns and castles. But why should he name them all? The actual 'cities' are 'just' Highgarden, King's Landing, Lannisport, Old Town. Perhaps throw in Sunspear (as we know nothing of it as of yet.) I think the few true 'cities' suggests that the Seven Kingdoms is a largely diffuse and rural population -- which is typical. Interstingly, I don't consider Jordan or Eddings great demographers. Tolkien is rather better. ;) 3) They're the only kingdom not to be conquered by Aegon. Elia was of Dorne. The Martells are separate in some culture facets from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Etc., etc. We're going to see them... but, to give an example, Jordan has Altara, Tarabon, etc. listed on his map from the the beginning. Altara doesn't even make an apperance until the 6th book or so. Why mention it so early then? Because it's there. ;) 4) What labor says. 4 (take 2)) He's written quite enough for me. Whispering Woods, Roose vs. Tywin, Stannis against King's Landing, the overthrow of the Lannisters in Harrenhal . . . nice and realistic without (honestly) going into gratuitous "battle every twenty pages" mode.
Arion User ID: 1139804	Apr 26th 6:26 PM My favorite nit -- in AGoT at the grand banquet for King Robert in Winterfells Hall, all the children are introduced from both the Stark and Lannister family EXCEPT Bran. Martin forgets to have him in the parade (and this occurs before Brans fall). When asked about it, Martin basically says "oops!" Bran was there as he later has memories of that night, but he is never mentioned. As for cities: Doesn't Theon arrive in a city near the Iron Islands and sack a bunch more cities on his way to take Winterfell?
labor	Apr 26th 6:36 PM Here are some nitpicks from the other areas: Edric Storm. The boy was ostensibly conceived during Stannises wedding feast, yet he is said to be 7 or 8 while Stannises and Selyse's daughter is 10. Even if he is small for his age, no one should have trouble to recall the year of Stannis'es wedding... In the scene where Barristan Selmy is dismissed, Pycelle reads a long list of Lords and their heirs summoned to swear their oaths of fealty to Joeffry under the pain of being proclaimed traitors and have their lands forfeited. Stannis Baratheon and Sheila Whent are on the list. Yet in the very next document Stannis is already named traitor and Sheila is disposessed of Harrenhal. Also on the list are Prince of Dorne and all his sons (his heir is the daughter) and Mace Tyrell and his brothers (he has none). The whole story of Ned's and Robert's fostering in the Vale of Arryn. Ned was such a perfect Northman and was so close with Lyanna (4-5 years his junior), yet he apparently was ward of Lord Arryn since he was 8(???). Perhaps he stayed a few years there, then went North and then returned? Robert's being in the Vale when he already became the Lord of Storm's End is also quite unexplicable. From what we have seen ruling a lordship involves a lot of work and in absentia the things tend to deteritoriate. Also, Robert was home in time to witness his parents drown, but then apparently returned to the Vale. Being Aerys's Hand Tywin Lannister apparently spent a lot of time at Casterly Rock. Cersei and Tyrion constantly mention him when reminescing about their childhood there (Tyrion even never was to King's Landing until Cersei's wedding). Shouldn't he be sitting in King's Landing instead?
Markus User ID: 2547224	Apr 26th 7:34 PM The timing of Steffon's and Cassana's death is even more peculiar, since it was probably before Rhaegar married, which would mean that Renly should have had a hard time to be even born, if Rhaenys was older than 4 as she died. But then, Renly isn't GRRM's strength, he was already older in AGoT than ACoK and had green eyes, instead of blue. Further, I wonder if GRRM has forgotten Medger Cerwyn's 30 year old daughter, who was supposed to accompany her now dead father south.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Apr 27th 0:22 AM Now that Martin explained the issue of Bran, not exactly a nit anymore, but I see the point. ;) As to the orders read -- does anyone find it surprising that the Lannisters would say 'So and so can keep their lands' and then turn around and say 'Here, you get there lands?' Not so much a nitpick, I think, as an observation. Also don't have any particular problem with Dorne -- 'sons' can stand in as the genderless for 'children' just as 'he' can act as the genderless pronoun. The Tyrell one . . . a bit more of a stretch, but I suppose one could put that in as well. It does seem more like a flub to me though. The rest isn't problematic so much as curious though -- we really have no idea at these chronologies, it's not all that improbable of visiting back and forth for extended periods. Good points though. Markus: I suppose then that she wouldn't be older than 4. Not something that I ever thought about much, but that sounds about the right age all considered.
oba User ID: 8987493	Apr 29th 1:03 PM Labor, I think your post is right on, except for the points about Robert Baratheon's having fostered after he was already the Lord of Storm's End and that Ned, as a fosterling, couldn't have developed a close relationship with his family. Look at the situation with young Robert Arryn in AGOT. He's the Lord of the Eyrie after his father Jon's death. But, Stannis, Tywin (albeit for suspicious motives), Ned, and even Lord Frey all make offers to foster the boy. I assume with Robert Baratheon a castellan was set up in his place. Now, this argument might be a bit of a stretch, but, perhaps fostering in Westeros is, in many cases, more like boarding school (Theon's situation was clearly different). Maybe Ned was allowed back home for birthdays, important events, or just the occasional trip to go see the folks.
labor User ID: 8479113	Apr 29th 1:33 PM oba, curious in Robert's situation was that he was still in the Vale after becoming a "man grown". We have seen that even 14-year old heirs (Robb, Cley Cerwyn, Lord Bar Emmon) take hand in ruling of the estates if their fathers are absent. And wasn't Robert Arryn's sickliness and abnormal developement the main official rationale for fostering him out? But it could be just one more illustration of Robert's irresponsibility and inability to rule. No doubt poor Stannis was playing "the Baratheon" in Storm's End, while Robert was amusing himself in the Vale.
Duke Dirjj User ID: 9990163	Apr 29th 2:25 PM Regarding Demographics, How can you say that you don't think Eddings & Jordan were good demographers. Maybe demographics isn't the right word to use, but each author had at least 10 major cities displayed on their respective Maps. Eddings has much more than 10. I guess my main nit here is that Westeros is supposed to be some rich and powerful land, but their are more cities on the other side of the narrow sea. Also, regarding battles, I guess I must concede this nit due to the fact that the this story is told through the P.O.V's of the characters, and the only parts of a battle that are allowed to us are what they see. ab
Ran User ID: 0283314	Apr 29th 2:41 PM Powerful? Sure. Lots of people. Rich? Well .. big land, lots of natural resources, guess this works. But highly advanced culturally and socially? Probably not. Remember, the Free Cities seem to have belonged to the Valyrian empire. They developed to tremendously high levels, and even though there may be something of a decline after the Doom, these places are still tremendously huge as cities compared to what the Seven Kingdoms has. The largest city in the Seven Kingdoms is King's Landing, which "is more populous than medieval London or Paris, but not so populous as medieval Constantinople or ancient Rome." (Martin, Legends Board, Feb. 9 1999) This puts it at something between 60k to 100k. Not very large at all. Martin lists several cities and potential cities, but I think the lack of them (and the profusion of towns) suggests that the Seven Kingdoms just isn't there yet. Its population is largely centered rurally, with a lot of villages, quite a few towns, and a handful of cities to round things out. This makes sense to me, anyhow.
labor	Apr 30th 10:42 AM Here is another series of nits: There are many more men than women in the noble families whose membership is listed in the appendices. One has an impression that hardly any man died of illnesses, tourney/hunting incidents etc. Also, seemingly no members of prominent noble Houses listed were killed during the war of the Usurper (except Targaryens), which is strange to say the least. How did Lord Paxter Redwyne manage to call his banners and reach the rest of the Tyrell force in time to be at the battle of King's Landing?
Min User ID: 9433023	Apr 30th 10:50 AM As for Sex and battles: SOIF has the right amount of it in every way. Violence and sex are a part of our lifes, and I want to read about them in a book if it is to capture me and if it is to be credible. GRRM does it the right way. I hate those stories about an innocent princess and a beaming hero: They love each other passionately, but never touch until they marry at the end of the book. And even then you can just guess it. That's (sorry) bullshit.
Jeff User ID: 8506593	Apr 30th 10:54 AM labor, I don't think that GRRM includes _all_ nobles in his listings, men or women. He tends just to include the more important ones. And, the reality is that men generally play a far more important role in the political/military struggles of Westeros, just as they did in medeival Europe.
labor	Apr 30th 11:49 AM Jeff, he includes all siblings/progeny of the given Lord. Look at the Frey listing - anyone up to grand-grand whatever daughters is mentioned. Even a few bastard (grand) daughters have the honor. I guess he just didn't think it out.
Kay-Arne Hansen User ID: 9209903	Apr 30th 11:52 AM labor: Was Paxter Redwyne mentioned as being with the Tyrell forces in the battle itself? That would be strange indeed. I thought he just appeared afterwards...
Ran User ID: 0283314	Apr 30th 12:00 PM Lord Paxter is listed as coming down among the 'other heroes of the Battle of the Blackwater.' But this doesn't seem so difficult -- he's Mace Tyrells oldest friend. After Renly's death, he might have decided to drop over to Highgarden to discuss matters. He would have brought some sort of escort. Then Littlefinger shows up at Bitterbridge, word is taken of how he's brought Paxter's twins, and things fall to place. Of course, how they get from Highgarden to King's Landing so swiftly when everyone else was much nearer to the city (being in the area of Bitterbridge) . . . That is, perhaps, trickier. I suppose there's enough time between Renly's death and Littlefinger heading to Bitterbridge and the battle to account for anyone moving from Highgarden to Bitterbridge without delaying the rest of the trip too much.
Markus User ID: 2547224	Apr 30th 12:01 PM [Paxter Redwyne's presence in King's Landing] labor, perhaps armies aren't as slow or distances as large in Westeros as you seem to believe.:) I guess, that once Littlefinger reached Bitterbridge with Hobber, a bird was sent to the Arbor, whereupon Redwyne shipped to Oldtown and marched to Bitterbridge just in time.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Apr 30th 12:05 PM I think Martin gives all suggestion of fairly realistic travel. Even so, however -- if Paxter Redwyne is in Highgarden when the message arrives, and goes with Mace Tyrell (and cavalry) to Bitterbridge . . . Perhaps 40 miles a day, given the good road conditions. No more than 50 miles a day. The distance is a little shy of the length of the Wall, so lets call it an estimated 280 miles. That's a week in travel time at most if they move immediately (which I don't see as unlikely.)
Jeff User ID: 8506593	Apr 30th 12:20 PM Ran, is that 40-50 miles/day for just mounted troops? I think that's very high even for cavalry, at least for a week. For infantry, its virtually impossible.