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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / PoV Chapters

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jun 7th 2:05 PM
We've probably touched in on this in several subjects from time to time, but what the heck.

What do you think about the various chapters being strictly one-PoV centered?

Advantages? Disadvantages?

I'll withhold my own opinion until I've seen some answers to this from others...

Bill Hall
User ID: 8562343 Jun 7th 4:08 PM
A major disadvantage is the lack of a global perspective. The author has to smuggle key parts of the background into the characters' ongoing adventures, sort of like short-story writing. I'll bet only dedicated readers (like us) have any real idea of the size of Westeros, its complex history, and the relations of the various Houses in the seven kingdoms. And not even we know what's with the Others, the Faceless Men, and other puzzle pieces tantalizingly glimpsed. In the end, there's a lot of background that the characters know which we are not privy to.

A major advantage is the way the story carries you along with the POV character. It's closer to acts in an on-stage drama than chapters in a novel. Long narrative passages would slow down the action while they set the stage. There are no paragraphs in ASOIAF that the reader dare skip. Such tight writing may reflect GRRM's TV experience.

This leads me to another disadvantage: The amount of significant detail in a story this long, told in this blow-by-blow fashion, may prove daunting to the average reader. As the story builds upon the foundations laid in earlier volumes, it will become progressively harder to maintain a coherent and comprehensive picture (even for us). On the other hand, the average reader may simply get his entertainment from the action in each playlet.

Interesting subject, KAH.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Jun 7th 8:47 PM
A major advantage to PoV chapters is the build up of tension and suspense. I never believed Ned would be killed, until he was, and even then I didnt fully believe it.
As Bill Hall said a disadvantage is the lack of global perspective, also, the chronological order of events can become a little confused.

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 Jun 8th 8:27 AM
Good post Bill Hall...

Advantages: we get to be in the mind of each POV character, thus we are given more info and meatier info...we get to see the most intimate thoughts and failures...I love it when a POV character thinks to him/herself about something when as a reader we want to yell at them that it is not true (i.e. when Ned is imprisoned he thinks of his salvation and that Catelyn has Tyrion, yet we know that Tyrion was released, and thus we feel for Ned - he is resting on false hope).

I also like how Martin can control the world and parts of it - by giving us POV looks at each part of the world, we look at it more from the POV of a person living in that world instead of like most fantasy where the reader is like a historian...in POV we are introduced to prejudices, generalities as well as opinions on customs and people...and I feel we get to know the world on a more intimate level.

This series would be a giant mess if it was not POV written - imagine all the thousands of names dropped, and moving back and forth and all over, it would feel like Jordan, unorganized and too much to chew...but like Bill says, maybe a product of his TV writing, each POV chapter is delicious and succinct - and moves the overall story along as well as the story for that character...

Each chapter becomes a painting, with a central image, other interesting new items on the periphery and shadows - each novel is an art gallery.

Disadvantages? The story is more controlled - the author can't take us anywhere anytime...but I don't see this as a big flaw.

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 Jun 8th 8:43 AM
Also with a POV system, each chapter throws us back into the appropriate story-line, and I know at least for me, I can't put the book down when I see the next name of each chapter. It keeps us on track for the so many story-lines. Can you imagine how insane it would be keeping all the story-lines straight and interesting if GRRM could jump anywhere, anytime? Not only would the thousands of names run together, the individual story-lines would become muddled and confusing.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jun 8th 8:54 AM
Well, for my own part, I agree with much you say about the advantages...I think it was one of the factors that hooked me instantly to aSoIaF.

One of the bigger disadvantages, is related to the lack of global perspective that was mentioned.

A few of the characters IMHO suffer from what I'd call the 'window' disease - their actions gives you the distinct feeling of being prompted by the need to see what happens to some other non-PoV character. This inhibits their own character growth.

This isn't very prevalent in aGoT, I think, but Davos suffers heavily from this, and also Cat does so in aCoK, to a lesser extent.
I _did_ get the impression that Martin sent her packing to Renly because it would give us a window to him, rather than something that flowed naturally from the story.

Lax
User ID: 8492403 Jun 8th 9:26 AM
The lack of global perspective is not always a disadvantage. Some events where no POV is present we get to know about later on. Either by means of rumours or during a conversation between a POV and a non-POV. I think that in some cases this is actually more interestning than seeing it live since I have to decide whether to trust the source or not.

For example, I think it's great that we don't know more than the POVs about Beric Dondarion (is that what he's called?)

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jun 8th 9:29 AM
That is true.

Martin has been rather inventive in how he has been going about trickling information to us, reagrding Robb's exploits, for instance. (I think he commented on that once...)

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 8th 11:05 AM
I really enjoy the POV perspectives. There are a ton of "whodunits" in this story that would be greatly lessened if there were a "global" perspective. Plus, I think one of Martin's themes is that everyone is a hero in their own story. The POV perspective makes it easier to see that.

Werther
User ID: 1731514 Jun 8th 11:49 AM
I like jumping from POV to POV. A global perspective would kill a lot of the discussions here.

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 Jun 8th 11:57 AM
Excellent commentaries...one of my other favorites is the disemmination of information...I love it when a character gets told something that I as a reader knew already, it makes me feel like God ... i.e. when Dany gets told that Robert is dead and they speculate about how he died and what will happen next.

Lax
User ID: 8492403 Jun 8th 1:51 PM
I was thinking, are the books written so strictly by the POV system that everything that the POVs get to know or see is in their own chapter and no information is assumed to have reach them from other chapters? What I mean is, would it make sense to only read say Sansas chapters? It would be a nice experiment to introduce someone to asoiaf by letting him read only one of the POV's chapters and see what he thinks about it or a bunch of people having one POV each and then compare their impressions of each other.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Jun 8th 2:23 PM
I've thought about doing that Lax.

The Daenerys chapters from GoT where actually a Novella that won an award back in '96 or '97 IIRC.

I think it was called "Blood of the Dragon" or something like that.

KAH User ID: 0541004	Jun 7th 2:05 PM We've probably touched in on this in several subjects from time to time, but what the heck. What do you think about the various chapters being strictly one-PoV centered? Advantages? Disadvantages? I'll withhold my own opinion until I've seen some answers to this from others...
Bill Hall User ID: 8562343	Jun 7th 4:08 PM A major disadvantage is the lack of a global perspective. The author has to smuggle key parts of the background into the characters' ongoing adventures, sort of like short-story writing. I'll bet only dedicated readers (like us) have any real idea of the size of Westeros, its complex history, and the relations of the various Houses in the seven kingdoms. And not even we know what's with the Others, the Faceless Men, and other puzzle pieces tantalizingly glimpsed. In the end, there's a lot of background that the characters know which we are not privy to. A major advantage is the way the story carries you along with the POV character. It's closer to acts in an on-stage drama than chapters in a novel. Long narrative passages would slow down the action while they set the stage. There are no paragraphs in ASOIAF that the reader dare skip. Such tight writing may reflect GRRM's TV experience. This leads me to another disadvantage: The amount of significant detail in a story this long, told in this blow-by-blow fashion, may prove daunting to the average reader. As the story builds upon the foundations laid in earlier volumes, it will become progressively harder to maintain a coherent and comprehensive picture (even for us). On the other hand, the average reader may simply get his entertainment from the action in each playlet. Interesting subject, KAH.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Jun 7th 8:47 PM A major advantage to PoV chapters is the build up of tension and suspense. I never believed Ned would be killed, until he was, and even then I didnt fully believe it. As Bill Hall said a disadvantage is the lack of global perspective, also, the chronological order of events can become a little confused.
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	Jun 8th 8:27 AM Good post Bill Hall... Advantages: we get to be in the mind of each POV character, thus we are given more info and meatier info...we get to see the most intimate thoughts and failures...I love it when a POV character thinks to him/herself about something when as a reader we want to yell at them that it is not true (i.e. when Ned is imprisoned he thinks of his salvation and that Catelyn has Tyrion, yet we know that Tyrion was released, and thus we feel for Ned - he is resting on false hope). I also like how Martin can control the world and parts of it - by giving us POV looks at each part of the world, we look at it more from the POV of a person living in that world instead of like most fantasy where the reader is like a historian...in POV we are introduced to prejudices, generalities as well as opinions on customs and people...and I feel we get to know the world on a more intimate level. This series would be a giant mess if it was not POV written - imagine all the thousands of names dropped, and moving back and forth and all over, it would feel like Jordan, unorganized and too much to chew...but like Bill says, maybe a product of his TV writing, each POV chapter is delicious and succinct - and moves the overall story along as well as the story for that character... Each chapter becomes a painting, with a central image, other interesting new items on the periphery and shadows - each novel is an art gallery. Disadvantages? The story is more controlled - the author can't take us anywhere anytime...but I don't see this as a big flaw.
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	Jun 8th 8:43 AM Also with a POV system, each chapter throws us back into the appropriate story-line, and I know at least for me, I can't put the book down when I see the next name of each chapter. It keeps us on track for the so many story-lines. Can you imagine how insane it would be keeping all the story-lines straight and interesting if GRRM could jump anywhere, anytime? Not only would the thousands of names run together, the individual story-lines would become muddled and confusing.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jun 8th 8:54 AM Well, for my own part, I agree with much you say about the advantages...I think it was one of the factors that hooked me instantly to aSoIaF. One of the bigger disadvantages, is related to the lack of global perspective that was mentioned. A few of the characters IMHO suffer from what I'd call the 'window' disease - their actions gives you the distinct feeling of being prompted by the need to see what happens to some other non-PoV character. This inhibits their own character growth. This isn't very prevalent in aGoT, I think, but Davos suffers heavily from this, and also Cat does so in aCoK, to a lesser extent. I _did_ get the impression that Martin sent her packing to Renly because it would give us a window to him, rather than something that flowed naturally from the story.
Lax User ID: 8492403	Jun 8th 9:26 AM The lack of global perspective is not always a disadvantage. Some events where no POV is present we get to know about later on. Either by means of rumours or during a conversation between a POV and a non-POV. I think that in some cases this is actually more interestning than seeing it live since I have to decide whether to trust the source or not. For example, I think it's great that we don't know more than the POVs about Beric Dondarion (is that what he's called?)
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jun 8th 9:29 AM That is true. Martin has been rather inventive in how he has been going about trickling information to us, reagrding Robb's exploits, for instance. (I think he commented on that once...)
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 8th 11:05 AM I really enjoy the POV perspectives. There are a ton of "whodunits" in this story that would be greatly lessened if there were a "global" perspective. Plus, I think one of Martin's themes is that everyone is a hero in their own story. The POV perspective makes it easier to see that.
Werther User ID: 1731514	Jun 8th 11:49 AM I like jumping from POV to POV. A global perspective would kill a lot of the discussions here.
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	Jun 8th 11:57 AM Excellent commentaries...one of my other favorites is the disemmination of information...I love it when a character gets told something that I as a reader knew already, it makes me feel like God ... i.e. when Dany gets told that Robert is dead and they speculate about how he died and what will happen next.
Lax User ID: 8492403	Jun 8th 1:51 PM I was thinking, are the books written so strictly by the POV system that everything that the POVs get to know or see is in their own chapter and no information is assumed to have reach them from other chapters? What I mean is, would it make sense to only read say Sansas chapters? It would be a nice experiment to introduce someone to asoiaf by letting him read only one of the POV's chapters and see what he thinks about it or a bunch of people having one POV each and then compare their impressions of each other.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Jun 8th 2:23 PM I've thought about doing that Lax. The Daenerys chapters from GoT where actually a Novella that won an award back in '96 or '97 IIRC. I think it was called "Blood of the Dragon" or something like that.