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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / On Second Thought...

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Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Apr 29th 6:05 PM
This is the first of a couple of "brilliant" new ideas which occurred to me during my recent hiatus from the message board. I have now begun my much-publicized reread of ASOIAF, naturally starting with AGOT. As many of you undoubtedly know, details become much clearer the second time around. One is able to more easily comprehend the wherefore and the why as they relate to already-known future actions.

Two factors should give me a rather unique perspective as I delve into the story for a second time. First, I last read AGOT more than two-and-a-half years ago; and second, I have also been privy to some great ASOIAF discussions on this message board. In other words, I am able to benefit from your added insights. I therefore think it might be interesting to note those things which particularly strike a chord with me during my reread. I certainly welcome any discussion that might ensue from my comments.

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Apr 29th 6:23 PM
Entry #1 - I am now on page 160 of AGOT. These are a few of the things that struck me thus far:

Bran definitely seems to be Catelyn's favorite child. Interestingly, I was one of the people who argued against this theory a while back. She makes several references about Bran being special, and she becomes despondent when Eddard includes Bran in the group slated to go to King's Landing. After Bran is hurt in the fall, she keeps a many-days vigil at his bedside. The question is, why would Catelyn single Bran out for special attention?

There was yet another interesting analogy involving the direwolves and their associated Stark children. When the wolves were first discovered, there were some in the Winterfell party who thought they should have been killed rather than weaned. As Bran is holding one, Theon says to him "Give the beast here", as he wants to kill it. Of course, Theon would later threaten Bran's well being after assaulting Winterfell.

What I also found interesting was Arya's significant role in the eventual death of Mycah. When Joffrey and Sansa came upon them "play" swordfighting near the Trident, Joff obviously wanted to show off in front of Sansa and put the tip of his sword to Mycah's face. He probably would not have done more than that. However, Arya attacked Joff, then Nymeria joined in and Joff sustained some noticeable wounds -- both to his body and to his pride. This resulted in Mycah being hunted down like a criminal and killed.

Keri Stevenson
User ID: 9872353 Apr 30th 7:04 AM
Welcome back, Ser Gary!

One thing I have always found strange about the beginning of _A Game of Thrones_ is the pivotal change in Catelyn's character. One moment, she seemed almost insanely weak, and Bran was her favorite child; the next, she was strong and she'd realized she had to move on. I suppose the attempt on Bran's life could have changed her mind, but it doesn't seem to be enough when weighted against at least seven years of Bran being the little boy and hers to protect.

Good reading of Theon's threatening of Summer, Ser Gary. I think it can also be read as Theon's eventual threatening of the entire Stark cause. But, interestingly enough, Theon did save Bran's life later in _A Game of Thrones_...

I think Arya did play a role in the death of Mycah, but I think it came just more from sheer innocence than anything else. She did not admire Joffrey, and might have thought he would kill Mycah on the spot. I don't blame her for reacting the way she did.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Apr 30th 9:28 AM
It is very clear that Arya blamed herself for Mycah's death in aGoT. That much is evident from her talk with Ned.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Apr 30th 10:45 AM
Welcome back, My Lord!
Excellent thought: Theon/Summer. But he did not kill the wolf. As well he did not kill Bran.

Arya: Ser Benjen said that the first kill would be the hardest. I think Arya started killing even before the stableboy. Not Mycah himself, though there is fault in her for that, of course. She has a temper, this one! And without her overreacting, Mycah would probably still be alive. But I think that these events, with Mykah's death and Nymeria chased away, brought her hatred to life. Given a chance, she would have killed Sandor on the spot. That was the beginning.

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Apr 30th 11:26 AM
Thanks for your comments, Keri, KAH and Min. The reason I noted the Arya-Micah thing was that many have seemed intent on excusing Arya's naivete, while at the same time attacking Sansa for hers. Granted, Sansa is two years older, but...

Incidentally, Sansa is pretty sickening in the early stages of AGOT. I did come to like her in ACOK, though, so I'm looking forward to paying special attention to the growth of both her and the Hound -- individually and collectively!

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 1st 12:34 PM
I just had an idea: We always wondered what would happen between Sansa and Arya when they meet again. I think it will be Arya who finds out about her father's death (she will want to know). It would fit into Martin's kind of storytelling if Sansa would realize the truth from her younger sister.

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 May 2nd 5:07 PM
Entry #2 - I am now on page 324 of AGOT. These are a few of the things which recently struck me during my reading:

Renly seems to consciously be trying to emulate Robert when he was of the same age. Ned notes how much Renly looks like a younger version of the king, in his dress and in his manner. Renly also possesses the same charm and charisma Robert once used to draw thousands into his rebellion. The clincher was when Renly showed a miniature painting of Margeary Tyrell to Ned and suggested she looked a lot like Lyanna. What's with that?

The Hound gave Sansa her first lessons in reality while escorting her from the post-tournament feast. He denounced Gregor for what he did to him as a child and for intentionally killing the young knight from the Vale during the tournament. He said Gregor was not "a true knight" and one got the impression that few of them were. He also likened Sansa to a little bird that repeats all the nice things she is told to say.

I also question whether the Hound has ever actually murdered anyone. He claimed to have killed someone when he was 12 years old, and he did a lot of boasting about how Mycah died when he rode in with his body. But the Hound was part of a hunting party and made a lot of "we" references when describing the kill. I firmly believe the Hound has built up this "wall of bravado" as a result of the trauma inflicted on him as a child. He doesn't cry, he boasts and he laughs and he carries on. It is noteworthy to mention that when he stood up to Gregor on the jousting field, he assumed a defensive posture thoughout, despite the fact that a.) he truly hates his brother and b.) Gregor was trying to decapitate him.

Keri Stevenson
User ID: 9872353 May 3rd 7:00 AM
I, too, thought Renly's showing Ned a picture of Margaery and asking if she looked like Lyanna meant that he was looking for a girl who looked like Lyanna to fall in love with, or at least marry. But it seems others think Renly had a plan, along with Loras or Littlefinger or another conspirator, to bring Margaery to King's Landing and get Robert to marry her so he would leave Cersei. If that plan existed, and it failed, I can easily see Renly marrying Margaery himself to "seal" some kind of ridiculous claim. I like Renly as a character in _A Game of Thrones_- in some ways he is more admirable than Robert- but he seems to be awfully in his brother's shadow.

The Hound: I haven't paid that much attention to his psychology because he's not my favorite character. However, most of what you said strikes me as having the ring of truth, Ser Gary, with one exception: I think he either killed Mycah, or was at least willing to have everyone think he did. After all, he was the one who came in carrying the body, and he made no attempt to correct Ned's presumably obvous assumption that he was at fault.

And it really is a short step from joking and laughing about murder as he did to doing it.

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 3rd 7:04 AM

The Hound was also in command of the party which killed Mycah. Even if he didn't kill him himself, he allowed his men to do so.

Markus
User ID: 2547224 May 3rd 7:35 AM
Varys told Illyrio that Loras had urged his father to send Margaery to court, in order for Robert to marry her. Renly was participating in this scheme to set Cersei aside.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 May 3rd 8:55 AM
That Renly would try to emulate his brother, is not so strange - Renly always yearned for attention, and no one got more attention than 'the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident', etc.

About the Hound and Mycah - this is a debate that will go on all the time until GRRM reveals what really happened - if he really does it! Myself, I'm not sure, but I think he probably killed him.

Joffrey probably cried murder to his mommy and Sandor, and the Hound would not be lenient on anyone attacking the boy he is sworn to protect, whatever their age.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 May 3rd 9:33 AM
I also found it interesting that Renly's march to King's Landing in ACOK included all kinds of tournaments and feasts along the way. Robert's influence again?

You're right, Labor. The Hound was in charge of the hunting party and should at least have to bear some responsibility for what happened. But one of his men might have killed Mycah before it could be prevented. My point about murder goes to the question of whether or not the Hound can achieve some sort of future redemption (an issue that has been raised many times on the Beast board), which would allow for a realistic relationship with Sansa or somebody else. My guess was that the Hound did not do the deed himself primarily because of what he demonstrated against Gregor on the jousting field. But you're also right, KAH. Who knows for sure? GRRM.

Keri Stevenson
User ID: 9872353 May 4th 7:02 AM
I don't think the Hound is beyond redemption (at this point, I think the only characters who are beyond redemption are Theon, who not only planned to kill children but didn't have the same excuse of their having attacked his sworn lord as Sandor did, and Littlefinger, who probably won't seek redemption). However, I think it less likely that he will get it than some people do. I know he's either a major character or at least a pretty well-developed minor character, but so many things have happened to him, and there are so many things he's done... He might die a hero's death, though, protecting Sansa, or something like that.

Personally, I don't really like him. He frightened Sansa badly. Sure, he told her about his face and what really happened to her, but then he threatened to kill her. I didn't care so much about that in _A Game of Thrones_, but I came to like her enough in _A Clash of Kings_ to despise him for it.

It is possible that he played a large part in Sansa's growing up, but it would be pretty hard to determine that...

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 4th 7:41 AM
Ser Gary: Haaruk provoked a longer discussion aboutn The Hound and Mykah on the Sansa topic, stating that the Hound did not kill Mykah at all. I suggest reading that, as I stated my opinion there. Indeed we do not have one proof for an actual kill of Sandor.

Jeff
User ID: 1578334 May 4th 8:19 AM
As for Arya and Mycah, I can't criticize Arya for what she did. Joffrey stuck the point of his sword in Mycah's face, drawing blood, and then said that he wouldn't hurt him "much". This only after Mycah did everything he could possibly do to appease Joffrey. Arya just stuck up for her friend, and she had no way of knowing that the Lannisters would be brutal enough to murder a boy for something Arya did.

Min, the Hound didn't seem to have much of a problem lopping off arms during the riot in King's Landing, and certainly appeared willing to follow Joffrey's order to find the person who through dung at Joffrey. And I don't imagine that he would have just spanked him had he caught him.
So, I see nothing inconsistent in him killing Mycah or at least ordering it, nor do I think that would necessarily put him beyond "redemption". After all, if Sandor's never committed an "actual kill", then how can he be "redeemed"?

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 May 4th 10:07 AM
Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Hound's lopping off of arms was in defense of Sansa, who had been pulled from her horse. Her life was in imminent danger. I don't think we can fault the Hound for that.

And when I talk of the Hound's potential redemption it is about his dark and somewhat shady life to date, involving some definite evil-doings. I simply have a problem with the idea of someone being redeemed from cold-blooded and totally unnecessary murder. That's all.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 4th 10:14 AM
Sandor has the reputation of a cold-blooded killer. This is useful and necessary. If it is true, I don't know. I am sure The Hound killed more than once in his life, don't get me wrong, I do not want to romanticize Sandor. I just stated that we never avtually witnessed him killing somebody. And I think Mykah was not his kill. I am with Haaruk, who sais it was Jaime who killed Mykah.

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 4th 10:51 AM

Min, Jaime and Sandor were leading _different_ searching parties. When Sandor's group returned with Mycah's body, Jaime and his party were still roaming around.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 4th 12:21 PM
sure? ooops.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Apr 29th 6:05 PM This is the first of a couple of "brilliant" new ideas which occurred to me during my recent hiatus from the message board. I have now begun my much-publicized reread of ASOIAF, naturally starting with AGOT. As many of you undoubtedly know, details become much clearer the second time around. One is able to more easily comprehend the wherefore and the why as they relate to already-known future actions. Two factors should give me a rather unique perspective as I delve into the story for a second time. First, I last read AGOT more than two-and-a-half years ago; and second, I have also been privy to some great ASOIAF discussions on this message board. In other words, I am able to benefit from your added insights. I therefore think it might be interesting to note those things which particularly strike a chord with me during my reread. I certainly welcome any discussion that might ensue from my comments.
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Apr 29th 6:23 PM Entry #1 - I am now on page 160 of AGOT. These are a few of the things that struck me thus far: Bran definitely seems to be Catelyn's favorite child. Interestingly, I was one of the people who argued against this theory a while back. She makes several references about Bran being special, and she becomes despondent when Eddard includes Bran in the group slated to go to King's Landing. After Bran is hurt in the fall, she keeps a many-days vigil at his bedside. The question is, why would Catelyn single Bran out for special attention? There was yet another interesting analogy involving the direwolves and their associated Stark children. When the wolves were first discovered, there were some in the Winterfell party who thought they should have been killed rather than weaned. As Bran is holding one, Theon says to him "Give the beast here", as he wants to kill it. Of course, Theon would later threaten Bran's well being after assaulting Winterfell. What I also found interesting was Arya's significant role in the eventual death of Mycah. When Joffrey and Sansa came upon them "play" swordfighting near the Trident, Joff obviously wanted to show off in front of Sansa and put the tip of his sword to Mycah's face. He probably would not have done more than that. However, Arya attacked Joff, then Nymeria joined in and Joff sustained some noticeable wounds -- both to his body and to his pride. This resulted in Mycah being hunted down like a criminal and killed.
Keri Stevenson User ID: 9872353	Apr 30th 7:04 AM Welcome back, Ser Gary! One thing I have always found strange about the beginning of _A Game of Thrones_ is the pivotal change in Catelyn's character. One moment, she seemed almost insanely weak, and Bran was her favorite child; the next, she was strong and she'd realized she had to move on. I suppose the attempt on Bran's life could have changed her mind, but it doesn't seem to be enough when weighted against at least seven years of Bran being the little boy and hers to protect. Good reading of Theon's threatening of Summer, Ser Gary. I think it can also be read as Theon's eventual threatening of the entire Stark cause. But, interestingly enough, Theon did save Bran's life later in _A Game of Thrones_... I think Arya did play a role in the death of Mycah, but I think it came just more from sheer innocence than anything else. She did not admire Joffrey, and might have thought he would kill Mycah on the spot. I don't blame her for reacting the way she did.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Apr 30th 9:28 AM It is very clear that Arya blamed herself for Mycah's death in aGoT. That much is evident from her talk with Ned.
Min User ID: 9433023	Apr 30th 10:45 AM Welcome back, My Lord! Excellent thought: Theon/Summer. But he did not kill the wolf. As well he did not kill Bran. Arya: Ser Benjen said that the first kill would be the hardest. I think Arya started killing even before the stableboy. Not Mycah himself, though there is fault in her for that, of course. She has a temper, this one! And without her overreacting, Mycah would probably still be alive. But I think that these events, with Mykah's death and Nymeria chased away, brought her hatred to life. Given a chance, she would have killed Sandor on the spot. That was the beginning.
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Apr 30th 11:26 AM Thanks for your comments, Keri, KAH and Min. The reason I noted the Arya-Micah thing was that many have seemed intent on excusing Arya's naivete, while at the same time attacking Sansa for hers. Granted, Sansa is two years older, but... Incidentally, Sansa is pretty sickening in the early stages of AGOT. I did come to like her in ACOK, though, so I'm looking forward to paying special attention to the growth of both her and the Hound -- individually and collectively!
Min User ID: 9433023	May 1st 12:34 PM I just had an idea: We always wondered what would happen between Sansa and Arya when they meet again. I think it will be Arya who finds out about her father's death (she will want to know). It would fit into Martin's kind of storytelling if Sansa would realize the truth from her younger sister.
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	May 2nd 5:07 PM Entry #2 - I am now on page 324 of AGOT. These are a few of the things which recently struck me during my reading: Renly seems to consciously be trying to emulate Robert when he was of the same age. Ned notes how much Renly looks like a younger version of the king, in his dress and in his manner. Renly also possesses the same charm and charisma Robert once used to draw thousands into his rebellion. The clincher was when Renly showed a miniature painting of Margeary Tyrell to Ned and suggested she looked a lot like Lyanna. What's with that? The Hound gave Sansa her first lessons in reality while escorting her from the post-tournament feast. He denounced Gregor for what he did to him as a child and for intentionally killing the young knight from the Vale during the tournament. He said Gregor was not "a true knight" and one got the impression that few of them were. He also likened Sansa to a little bird that repeats all the nice things she is told to say. I also question whether the Hound has ever actually murdered anyone. He claimed to have killed someone when he was 12 years old, and he did a lot of boasting about how Mycah died when he rode in with his body. But the Hound was part of a hunting party and made a lot of "we" references when describing the kill. I firmly believe the Hound has built up this "wall of bravado" as a result of the trauma inflicted on him as a child. He doesn't cry, he boasts and he laughs and he carries on. It is noteworthy to mention that when he stood up to Gregor on the jousting field, he assumed a defensive posture thoughout, despite the fact that a.) he truly hates his brother and b.) Gregor was trying to decapitate him.
Keri Stevenson User ID: 9872353	May 3rd 7:00 AM I, too, thought Renly's showing Ned a picture of Margaery and asking if she looked like Lyanna meant that he was looking for a girl who looked like Lyanna to fall in love with, or at least marry. But it seems others think Renly had a plan, along with Loras or Littlefinger or another conspirator, to bring Margaery to King's Landing and get Robert to marry her so he would leave Cersei. If that plan existed, and it failed, I can easily see Renly marrying Margaery himself to "seal" some kind of ridiculous claim. I like Renly as a character in _A Game of Thrones_- in some ways he is more admirable than Robert- but he seems to be awfully in his brother's shadow. The Hound: I haven't paid that much attention to his psychology because he's not my favorite character. However, most of what you said strikes me as having the ring of truth, Ser Gary, with one exception: I think he either killed Mycah, or was at least willing to have everyone think he did. After all, he was the one who came in carrying the body, and he made no attempt to correct Ned's presumably obvous assumption that he was at fault. And it really is a short step from joking and laughing about murder as he did to doing it.
labor User ID: 8479113	May 3rd 7:04 AM The Hound was also in command of the party which killed Mycah. Even if he didn't kill him himself, he allowed his men to do so.
Markus User ID: 2547224	May 3rd 7:35 AM Varys told Illyrio that Loras had urged his father to send Margaery to court, in order for Robert to marry her. Renly was participating in this scheme to set Cersei aside.
KAH User ID: 9209903	May 3rd 8:55 AM That Renly would try to emulate his brother, is not so strange - Renly always yearned for attention, and no one got more attention than 'the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident', etc. About the Hound and Mycah - this is a debate that will go on all the time until GRRM reveals what really happened - if he really does it! Myself, I'm not sure, but I think he probably killed him. Joffrey probably cried murder to his mommy and Sandor, and the Hound would not be lenient on anyone attacking the boy he is sworn to protect, whatever their age.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	May 3rd 9:33 AM I also found it interesting that Renly's march to King's Landing in ACOK included all kinds of tournaments and feasts along the way. Robert's influence again? You're right, Labor. The Hound was in charge of the hunting party and should at least have to bear some responsibility for what happened. But one of his men might have killed Mycah before it could be prevented. My point about murder goes to the question of whether or not the Hound can achieve some sort of future redemption (an issue that has been raised many times on the Beast board), which would allow for a realistic relationship with Sansa or somebody else. My guess was that the Hound did not do the deed himself primarily because of what he demonstrated against Gregor on the jousting field. But you're also right, KAH. Who knows for sure? GRRM.
Keri Stevenson User ID: 9872353	May 4th 7:02 AM I don't think the Hound is beyond redemption (at this point, I think the only characters who are beyond redemption are Theon, who not only planned to kill children but didn't have the same excuse of their having attacked his sworn lord as Sandor did, and Littlefinger, who probably won't seek redemption). However, I think it less likely that he will get it than some people do. I know he's either a major character or at least a pretty well-developed minor character, but so many things have happened to him, and there are so many things he's done... He might die a hero's death, though, protecting Sansa, or something like that. Personally, I don't really like him. He frightened Sansa badly. Sure, he told her about his face and what really happened to her, but then he threatened to kill her. I didn't care so much about that in _A Game of Thrones_, but I came to like her enough in _A Clash of Kings_ to despise him for it. It is possible that he played a large part in Sansa's growing up, but it would be pretty hard to determine that...
Min User ID: 9433023	May 4th 7:41 AM Ser Gary: Haaruk provoked a longer discussion aboutn The Hound and Mykah on the Sansa topic, stating that the Hound did not kill Mykah at all. I suggest reading that, as I stated my opinion there. Indeed we do not have one proof for an actual kill of Sandor.
Jeff User ID: 1578334	May 4th 8:19 AM As for Arya and Mycah, I can't criticize Arya for what she did. Joffrey stuck the point of his sword in Mycah's face, drawing blood, and then said that he wouldn't hurt him "much". This only after Mycah did everything he could possibly do to appease Joffrey. Arya just stuck up for her friend, and she had no way of knowing that the Lannisters would be brutal enough to murder a boy for something Arya did. Min, the Hound didn't seem to have much of a problem lopping off arms during the riot in King's Landing, and certainly appeared willing to follow Joffrey's order to find the person who through dung at Joffrey. And I don't imagine that he would have just spanked him had he caught him. So, I see nothing inconsistent in him killing Mycah or at least ordering it, nor do I think that would necessarily put him beyond "redemption". After all, if Sandor's never committed an "actual kill", then how can he be "redeemed"?
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	May 4th 10:07 AM Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Hound's lopping off of arms was in defense of Sansa, who had been pulled from her horse. Her life was in imminent danger. I don't think we can fault the Hound for that. And when I talk of the Hound's potential redemption it is about his dark and somewhat shady life to date, involving some definite evil-doings. I simply have a problem with the idea of someone being redeemed from cold-blooded and totally unnecessary murder. That's all.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 4th 10:14 AM Sandor has the reputation of a cold-blooded killer. This is useful and necessary. If it is true, I don't know. I am sure The Hound killed more than once in his life, don't get me wrong, I do not want to romanticize Sandor. I just stated that we never avtually witnessed him killing somebody. And I think Mykah was not his kill. I am with Haaruk, who sais it was Jaime who killed Mykah.
labor User ID: 8479113	May 4th 10:51 AM Min, Jaime and Sandor were leading _different_ searching parties. When Sandor's group returned with Mycah's body, Jaime and his party were still roaming around.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 4th 12:21 PM sure? ooops.