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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Genealogical Gleanings

Next 20 Messages

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jun 27th 7:02 PM
Well, I have started work on my genealogy of the Westeros and even at the very beginning some really interesting relationships have appeared.
For example Sam Tarly is Shireen Baratheon's third cousin, Sam's mother and Selyse are second cousins.
Another relationship that might be worth exploring is the possibility of Ser Gerrold Hightower being Ser Loras Tyrrell's great-uncle.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 27th 7:21 PM
Cool one. Never thought that about Sam and Shireen, although I've recently been overhauling the heraldry pages and came to realize (once again) that Lord Tarly is married to a Florent.

The White Bull was indeed Loras's great-uncle -- uncle to Lord Leyton and his sister, who is Loras's mother -- though I never really made the connection. That's a good catch. Hum.

Those Florents are a wealth of interesting relationships. For instance, Ser Jorah Mormont is son-in-law to Lord Florent's sister Rhea. Which also makes him related by marriage to folk like Queen Selyse, Samwell, Edric Storm . . .

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jun 27th 7:43 PM
Ran,
I am so far just inputting the information in the indexes, later I will go back and re-read the books (how many times can I re-read them before I get SoS?) and input the other relationships.
I am guessing that the Freys are going to provide some very interesting relationships between main characters but I have not had the courage to start on Walder Frey's descendants :)

Lodengarl
User ID: 0958254 Jun 27th 7:48 PM
Are we going to be able to download or check out this great work you are doing?

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jun 27th 8:26 PM
I have no idea, I am using a genealogy software called Ultimate Family Tree, if anyone knows how to put it on a website or have it available for anyone who wants to use it , let me know I will send the file and you can do what you want with it.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 27th 8:55 PM
Rania, would you be willing to see the information on the web? Maybe as a link from a (major) website, after someone scanned it and posted a webpage? If so, I believe I can being that to pass :-) You would get proper credit, of course.

Thats fascinating about Sam and Shireen.

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jun 27th 9:46 PM
Absolutely....
Oh I am sure there are more connections like Sam and Shireen, but I haven't found them yet.
Btw, does anyone else find it a bit odd that the great houses tended to marry people from their area of the Seven Kingdoms rather than marry people from the other great families?
As an exmple the Tyrells married Redwynes and Fossoways etc...... instead of marrying Starks, Arryns, Tullys.

Arend
User ID: 9941493 Jun 27th 10:21 PM
I don't think that's strange - tend your own backyard first, before going for the really big prizes. In other words: once you have built a strong local powerbase through intermarriage, you can start looking outside your part of the Seven Kingdoms.

Fostering customs might play a role here, but the examples I can think of involve families from far flung parts of Westeros (e.g. Theon, although that mght just have been an exceptional situation).

Barbarossa
User ID: 3034424 Jun 28th 3:23 AM
I studied medival history, and at least here in Germany there are basically two groups of noble marriages in medival times:
You either marry a women of 1 rank below yours from your own area to strengthen your home power.
Or you marry a women of roughly the same rank that brings an alliance. Examples of the first are plentyfull. Examples of the second would be Starks and Tullys. Lannisters and Baratherons ect.

One thing, that leads to more local marriages is in my opinion the lack of large scale conflicts in the most recent history of the 7 kingdoms. There simply was little need for larger alliances in the last 20 years, except if houses had conspired against the king.

We have already seen the first changes though, Lannisters marry Tyrells, and Dhornishmen, and we will see more in the future i'm sure.

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jun 28th 11:59 PM
What you are saying makes sense historically, but it still caused a lot of trouble especially when you have a weak king and lots of potential pretenders among his overmighty subjects. A perfect example would be the Stuarts and the Douglas at the beginning on the Stuart dynasty, they needed strong local help to even stay in power and battle the English, they married into the Douglas family so much that at one point the Douglasses could claim the crown just as much at the Stuarts and then it became a death match between the families.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jun 29th 3:53 PM
Rania, that's great! I did notice Sam's family ties... but not Ser Jorah's, not in such depth (i.e. that he is _also_ related to the Florents, even if by marriage).
I guess that your efforts will be somewhat stumped by the lack of important material - for instance we have no idea what House Ned's mother was from or whether any female Starks married into other Houses in the last couple of generations. I would have loved to learn from what Houses are/were Tywin and siblings and Lady Joanna and sibling on maternal sides, etc, etc. I can only hope that ASOS will give you more stuff and perhaps even some birthdates...

Frey family listing is fascinating - they have possible heirs to Harrenhal, Lord Caron's estates, Darry (either Little Walder's mother or the wife of Ser Cleos Frey), and Rosby(!) in their ranks.
And are related to lots of Houses in the Rock, Vale, Riverlands, Stormlands and KL. IIRC only the North and Dorne were completely Frey-free until ACOK. Don't remember about the Reach. A few members are even positioned in the Free Cities, so Dany and whoever gets exiled there in ASOS might run into them...

Lord
User ID: 1871394 Jul 1st 5:47 PM
Here is a conflicting tidbit regarding family trees.
In the text of AGOT on p. 368 it is stated that Lord Nestor Royce is "Bronze Yohn's cousin, from a lesser branch of House Royce, yet still a formidable lord in his own right."

However, in the appendix of ACOK Lord Nestor is given as "brother of Lord Yohn."

What do you make of this?
I believe Martin has made an error and probably should be informed of this one.
Like Rania I have been compiling some genealogical charts but not so extensively.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 1st 6:26 PM
GRRM has, indeed, been informed. :) Definite mistake -- they're cousins, not brothers, as GoT states. GRRM said he's told his editors about it, so any further editions should have the appendices corrected in that regards.

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jul 2nd 0:45 AM
Another mistake might be Jon Fossoway who is referred as both a Green Apple and a Red Apple Fossoway, does anyone know which one he is supposed to be?
About the Royces, there is a Royce lady married to a Frey any idea if she is the daughter of Bronze Yohn or a daughter of Nestor?

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jul 2nd 0:46 AM
Another mistake might be Jon Fossoway who is referred as both a Green Apple and a Red Apple Fossoway, does anyone know which one he is supposed to be?
About the Royces, there is a Royce lady married to a Frey any idea if she is the daughter of Bronze Yohn or a daughter of Nestor?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 2nd 4:53 AM
Jon's a green apple Fossoway. The place where he was called a red apple Fossoway was a mixup, according to GRRM. :)

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jul 2nd 9:32 AM
Cool......... two mixups so far.
I am glad he is a green apple Fossoway, I dont like the red bunch :)

Rania
User ID: 2456014 Jul 2nd 1:41 PM
Does anyone know if Jeyne Royce (Jon Arryn's first wife) was the sister of Bronze Yohn or Nestor Royce?
Also, there are two Darry girls married to Frey men.
The first one is married to Ser Cleos Frey and the other one to a half-brother of his father's generationally speaking do you guys think that those Darry women are Ser Raymun's sisters or his aunts?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 2nd 3:39 PM
Given Jon Arryn's age, I doubt she was a sister to Bronze Yohn. Possibly Lord Nestor ... More likely an aunt to one or the other, though.

Still no idea on the Darry girls. There's a lot of gaps and it's really hard to tell who fits where. They could very possibly be cousins, for all we know. :) I'd guess, though, that ... Maybe Ser Cleos's wife is an elder sister or cousin to Raymun, or a youngish aunt. The other would be an aunt or maybe a cousin as well.

Rania
User ID: 2456014 Jul 2nd 3:48 PM
I guess we are not making any leaps of "faith" in this case.
I just wish GRRM would go into a bit more detail
about how the people who are not brothers/sisters or fathers and sons are related.
Cousin is such a vague word.
For example both Tywin Lannister and Jon Arryn were married to their cousins. Does GRRM mean first cousin? Second cousin? nth cousin n times removed?
Btw, Ran is your site down today? I can get to it at all, I keep getting error messages.

Next 20 Messages

Rania User ID: 9147853	Jun 27th 7:02 PM Well, I have started work on my genealogy of the Westeros and even at the very beginning some really interesting relationships have appeared. For example Sam Tarly is Shireen Baratheon's third cousin, Sam's mother and Selyse are second cousins. Another relationship that might be worth exploring is the possibility of Ser Gerrold Hightower being Ser Loras Tyrrell's great-uncle.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 27th 7:21 PM Cool one. Never thought that about Sam and Shireen, although I've recently been overhauling the heraldry pages and came to realize (once again) that Lord Tarly is married to a Florent. The White Bull was indeed Loras's great-uncle -- uncle to Lord Leyton and his sister, who is Loras's mother -- though I never really made the connection. That's a good catch. Hum. Those Florents are a wealth of interesting relationships. For instance, Ser Jorah Mormont is son-in-law to Lord Florent's sister Rhea. Which also makes him related by marriage to folk like Queen Selyse, Samwell, Edric Storm . . .
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jun 27th 7:43 PM Ran, I am so far just inputting the information in the indexes, later I will go back and re-read the books (how many times can I re-read them before I get SoS?) and input the other relationships. I am guessing that the Freys are going to provide some very interesting relationships between main characters but I have not had the courage to start on Walder Frey's descendants :)
Lodengarl User ID: 0958254	Jun 27th 7:48 PM Are we going to be able to download or check out this great work you are doing?
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jun 27th 8:26 PM I have no idea, I am using a genealogy software called Ultimate Family Tree, if anyone knows how to put it on a website or have it available for anyone who wants to use it , let me know I will send the file and you can do what you want with it.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 27th 8:55 PM Rania, would you be willing to see the information on the web? Maybe as a link from a (major) website, after someone scanned it and posted a webpage? If so, I believe I can being that to pass :-) You would get proper credit, of course. Thats fascinating about Sam and Shireen.
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jun 27th 9:46 PM Absolutely.... Oh I am sure there are more connections like Sam and Shireen, but I haven't found them yet. Btw, does anyone else find it a bit odd that the great houses tended to marry people from their area of the Seven Kingdoms rather than marry people from the other great families? As an exmple the Tyrells married Redwynes and Fossoways etc...... instead of marrying Starks, Arryns, Tullys.
Arend User ID: 9941493	Jun 27th 10:21 PM I don't think that's strange - tend your own backyard first, before going for the really big prizes. In other words: once you have built a strong local powerbase through intermarriage, you can start looking outside your part of the Seven Kingdoms. Fostering customs might play a role here, but the examples I can think of involve families from far flung parts of Westeros (e.g. Theon, although that mght just have been an exceptional situation).
Barbarossa User ID: 3034424	Jun 28th 3:23 AM I studied medival history, and at least here in Germany there are basically two groups of noble marriages in medival times: You either marry a women of 1 rank below yours from your own area to strengthen your home power. Or you marry a women of roughly the same rank that brings an alliance. Examples of the first are plentyfull. Examples of the second would be Starks and Tullys. Lannisters and Baratherons ect. One thing, that leads to more local marriages is in my opinion the lack of large scale conflicts in the most recent history of the 7 kingdoms. There simply was little need for larger alliances in the last 20 years, except if houses had conspired against the king. We have already seen the first changes though, Lannisters marry Tyrells, and Dhornishmen, and we will see more in the future i'm sure.
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jun 28th 11:59 PM What you are saying makes sense historically, but it still caused a lot of trouble especially when you have a weak king and lots of potential pretenders among his overmighty subjects. A perfect example would be the Stuarts and the Douglas at the beginning on the Stuart dynasty, they needed strong local help to even stay in power and battle the English, they married into the Douglas family so much that at one point the Douglasses could claim the crown just as much at the Stuarts and then it became a death match between the families.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jun 29th 3:53 PM Rania, that's great! I did notice Sam's family ties... but not Ser Jorah's, not in such depth (i.e. that he is _also_ related to the Florents, even if by marriage). I guess that your efforts will be somewhat stumped by the lack of important material - for instance we have no idea what House Ned's mother was from or whether any female Starks married into other Houses in the last couple of generations. I would have loved to learn from what Houses are/were Tywin and siblings and Lady Joanna and sibling on maternal sides, etc, etc. I can only hope that ASOS will give you more stuff and perhaps even some birthdates... Frey family listing is fascinating - they have possible heirs to Harrenhal, Lord Caron's estates, Darry (either Little Walder's mother or the wife of Ser Cleos Frey), and Rosby(!) in their ranks. And are related to lots of Houses in the Rock, Vale, Riverlands, Stormlands and KL. IIRC only the North and Dorne were completely Frey-free until ACOK. Don't remember about the Reach. A few members are even positioned in the Free Cities, so Dany and whoever gets exiled there in ASOS might run into them...
Lord User ID: 1871394	Jul 1st 5:47 PM Here is a conflicting tidbit regarding family trees. In the text of AGOT on p. 368 it is stated that Lord Nestor Royce is "Bronze Yohn's cousin, from a lesser branch of House Royce, yet still a formidable lord in his own right." However, in the appendix of ACOK Lord Nestor is given as "brother of Lord Yohn." What do you make of this? I believe Martin has made an error and probably should be informed of this one. Like Rania I have been compiling some genealogical charts but not so extensively.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 1st 6:26 PM GRRM has, indeed, been informed. :) Definite mistake -- they're cousins, not brothers, as GoT states. GRRM said he's told his editors about it, so any further editions should have the appendices corrected in that regards.
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jul 2nd 0:45 AM Another mistake might be Jon Fossoway who is referred as both a Green Apple and a Red Apple Fossoway, does anyone know which one he is supposed to be? About the Royces, there is a Royce lady married to a Frey any idea if she is the daughter of Bronze Yohn or a daughter of Nestor?
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jul 2nd 0:46 AM Another mistake might be Jon Fossoway who is referred as both a Green Apple and a Red Apple Fossoway, does anyone know which one he is supposed to be? About the Royces, there is a Royce lady married to a Frey any idea if she is the daughter of Bronze Yohn or a daughter of Nestor?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 2nd 4:53 AM Jon's a green apple Fossoway. The place where he was called a red apple Fossoway was a mixup, according to GRRM. :)
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jul 2nd 9:32 AM Cool......... two mixups so far. I am glad he is a green apple Fossoway, I dont like the red bunch :)
Rania User ID: 2456014	Jul 2nd 1:41 PM Does anyone know if Jeyne Royce (Jon Arryn's first wife) was the sister of Bronze Yohn or Nestor Royce? Also, there are two Darry girls married to Frey men. The first one is married to Ser Cleos Frey and the other one to a half-brother of his father's generationally speaking do you guys think that those Darry women are Ser Raymun's sisters or his aunts?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 2nd 3:39 PM Given Jon Arryn's age, I doubt she was a sister to Bronze Yohn. Possibly Lord Nestor ... More likely an aunt to one or the other, though. Still no idea on the Darry girls. There's a lot of gaps and it's really hard to tell who fits where. They could very possibly be cousins, for all we know. :) I'd guess, though, that ... Maybe Ser Cleos's wife is an elder sister or cousin to Raymun, or a youngish aunt. The other would be an aunt or maybe a cousin as well.
Rania User ID: 2456014	Jul 2nd 3:48 PM I guess we are not making any leaps of "faith" in this case. I just wish GRRM would go into a bit more detail about how the people who are not brothers/sisters or fathers and sons are related. Cousin is such a vague word. For example both Tywin Lannister and Jon Arryn were married to their cousins. Does GRRM mean first cousin? Second cousin? nth cousin n times removed? Btw, Ran is your site down today? I can get to it at all, I keep getting error messages.