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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Lady Ashara Dayne

Next 20 Messages

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Jul 5th 8:20 PM
I know this has been discussed to death, but Im bored, and I just noticed it.
Lady Ashara Dayne, sister of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had violet eyes, and light hair much like the Targaryens. It was rumored that she was the mother of Jon.
Thinking about it, I wonder if that rumour was deliberately started, to cover Jon, in case he developed any Targaryen characteristics ( Like many others, I believe that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna)
Therefore, if Jon grew silver hair and had violet eyes, it could be explained that Asharra Dayne is his mother, and she couldnt deny it because she is dead.
I know this isnt really Neds style, but we also know he is willing to forgo his honor to protect his family.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 6th 5:35 AM
There is no clear indication she had light hair. She was called "the fair Ashara Dayne," and in that context "fair" almost certainly refers to her beauty.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jul 6th 6:47 AM
But she did have violet eyes, although according to GRRM she wasn't of Valyrian blood.

BTW it is evident pretty early whether the child has a chance to be blonde (if a child is born with dark hair, there is virtually none), but the eye color often changes pretty late (mine changed when I was 8 months old). So, suggesting Ashara as Jon's mother was certainly a valid precaution in case Jon developed Targaryen eye color.

Also, Ned did visit Starfall before showing up with Jon, so it was a pretty logical conjecture, too.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jul 6th 9:35 AM
I think Brady's idea about Ashara Dayne being a "cover story" for Jon is pretty clever. I suppose the Daynes might not be too happy about the rumor, and would be able to contradict any rumor that she was pregnant. Still, if it's only a cover story intended to make things murkier, it doesn't have to be perfect.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 9983153 Jul 7th 0:47 AM
I like the idea but whether it's true or not is mostly conjecture.

Nice insights though, people.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 7th 5:19 AM
If it's a cover rumor, it wasn't of Ned's invention, I think. He wasn't subtle enough, and he had too much honor.

Someone else -- like Howland Reed -- might have seen to it ... but I'm not sure of that. Given Ned's very strong reaction to what Cat asked him about Ashara, I think it's likeliest that the rumor came inadvertently from his visiting Starfall.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jul 7th 9:56 AM
Ran, I tend to agree. I think Ned had a thing for Ashara, and vice-versa, that likely was never consumnated. Ashara committed suicide when it became clear that Ned was going back North for good.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 7th 10:06 AM
Hrm. Too romantic for me. :) I figure she killed herself out of the combined grief of her brother's death and her failure to keep an oath to protect the child at all cost.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jul 14th 8:35 AM
What child did she not protect?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 14th 9:16 AM
Jon, or so I figure. He certainly didn't seem to be at the tower of joy. So ... if she was charged by the Kingsguard to take Rhaegar's only surviving heir to safety, and to give him up under no cause or some such, I think she would have carried him off to Starfall and tried to keep him.

Then Ned comes, with Arthur's sword and the desire for his sister's son . . .

Tom O.
User ID: 1327644 Jul 14th 9:25 AM
Hrm. Once upon a time I tended to believe that there was a possiblilty that Ms. Dane was another caught up by Rhaegar.

Although I am more inclined to believe an affair with Ned who had to give up the woman he loved to do his duty.

Still. The above theory is interesting.

Ran. Why do you think that Jon was not at the Tower of Joy?

Tom O.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 14th 9:33 AM
Hum. Well, it's just not mentioned. There's no child crying, and you think there would be one in a place where there's a dying young woman and the room smells of the life's blood that's poured out of her. Oh, and she was apparently screaming Ned's name, too.

That should be enough to scare any kid, anyhow. I think Ned's story, of Lyanna dying in the mountains from some illness, is probably true enough. If that's the case, Jon might also have been taken away from the tower for his own safety because of his mother's illness.

Tom O.
User ID: 1327644 Jul 14th 9:50 AM
Gotcha. Interesting take on the situation. :) I always read the situation as the blood was caused by massive hymeraging (sp?) due to child birth. This reasoning also did not invalidate the twin theory on a different thread.

But I see your reasoning. Never is it mentioned that a baby was crying. The child, Jon, is not mentioned in th gossip/history of the time prior to the return of Dawn to Ashra. Eddard shows up with a son, but we do not know how long he was traveling with the child.

Gives me something more to think about while I await the book. :)

Thanks Ran.

Tom O.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jul 14th 10:29 AM
Exactly, I always thought she was bleeding because she had just given birth. I always thought she put Jon in Ned's arms as she said "Promise me Ned". It has me completely befuddled and amazed that you assume Jon was not there because he was not mentioned. When you consider that childbirth was not mentioned in the tower of joy scene, it seemed natural to me that a child was not mentioned.

However, while ASOS does not answer the question of where Jon was during the tower of joy in any definitive way, you may be right. Jon may not have been there and Ashara may have had some responsibility. (Again, not settled definitively in ASOS, so this is not a spoiler). This just amazes me.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jul 14th 10:31 AM
Oh, but that opens up all kinds of possibilities that are not even hinted at in ASOS. Maybe she did not kill herself, maybe she was killed because she was in on the secret of Jon's birth.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 14th 10:32 AM
Ahh, well, I always presumed she died a relatively-lingering death. Bleeding from damage from the birth, and childbed illness keeping her from healing properly. In part, I cook this up so as not to make Ned's statement to Robert a lie -- I think he's willing to work as near the truth as possible with people, even with this.

The fact that they found Lyanna in Ned's arms after her death suggests that she hadn't given him Jon. He just stayed there, holding her, and there's no hint of anyone thinking anything about a child.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jul 14th 11:00 AM
If she did not hand Ned Jon, I am not sure why we assume she died of childbirth. Could she have been stabbed?

Also, you speak of Ned's statement to Robert being as near the truth as possible. Do you mean the statement about Wylla, and if so, how do we know that this is related to Ashara?

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jul 14th 11:08 AM
Maybe lingering complications because of the child birth killed her. (that's what I've assumed)

Being too sick to be moved to Starfall together with Jon, she opted not to let him remain with her alone, but give him into the care of Ashara Dayne.
Or something to that effect.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 14th 11:42 AM
I meant the statement where Ned tells Robert he was there when Lyanna died in the mountains. I can't find, exactly, where it is, but I have distinct memory of it. I'm pretty sure he attributes her death, to Robert at least, to an illness.

Alessa
User ID: 9488873 Jul 14th 12:02 PM
Only problem I have with Jon not being in the Tower of Joy is the Kingsguard. Shouldn't at least some of them be guarding Jon instead of Lyanna? I just don't see them leaving Jon without a guard.

Next 20 Messages

Brady User ID: 0721754	Jul 5th 8:20 PM I know this has been discussed to death, but Im bored, and I just noticed it. Lady Ashara Dayne, sister of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had violet eyes, and light hair much like the Targaryens. It was rumored that she was the mother of Jon. Thinking about it, I wonder if that rumour was deliberately started, to cover Jon, in case he developed any Targaryen characteristics ( Like many others, I believe that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna) Therefore, if Jon grew silver hair and had violet eyes, it could be explained that Asharra Dayne is his mother, and she couldnt deny it because she is dead. I know this isnt really Neds style, but we also know he is willing to forgo his honor to protect his family.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 6th 5:35 AM There is no clear indication she had light hair. She was called "the fair Ashara Dayne," and in that context "fair" almost certainly refers to her beauty.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jul 6th 6:47 AM But she did have violet eyes, although according to GRRM she wasn't of Valyrian blood. BTW it is evident pretty early whether the child has a chance to be blonde (if a child is born with dark hair, there is virtually none), but the eye color often changes pretty late (mine changed when I was 8 months old). So, suggesting Ashara as Jon's mother was certainly a valid precaution in case Jon developed Targaryen eye color. Also, Ned did visit Starfall before showing up with Jon, so it was a pretty logical conjecture, too.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jul 6th 9:35 AM I think Brady's idea about Ashara Dayne being a "cover story" for Jon is pretty clever. I suppose the Daynes might not be too happy about the rumor, and would be able to contradict any rumor that she was pregnant. Still, if it's only a cover story intended to make things murkier, it doesn't have to be perfect.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 9983153	Jul 7th 0:47 AM I like the idea but whether it's true or not is mostly conjecture. Nice insights though, people.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 7th 5:19 AM If it's a cover rumor, it wasn't of Ned's invention, I think. He wasn't subtle enough, and he had too much honor. Someone else -- like Howland Reed -- might have seen to it ... but I'm not sure of that. Given Ned's very strong reaction to what Cat asked him about Ashara, I think it's likeliest that the rumor came inadvertently from his visiting Starfall.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jul 7th 9:56 AM Ran, I tend to agree. I think Ned had a thing for Ashara, and vice-versa, that likely was never consumnated. Ashara committed suicide when it became clear that Ned was going back North for good.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 7th 10:06 AM Hrm. Too romantic for me. :) I figure she killed herself out of the combined grief of her brother's death and her failure to keep an oath to protect the child at all cost.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jul 14th 8:35 AM What child did she not protect?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 14th 9:16 AM Jon, or so I figure. He certainly didn't seem to be at the tower of joy. So ... if she was charged by the Kingsguard to take Rhaegar's only surviving heir to safety, and to give him up under no cause or some such, I think she would have carried him off to Starfall and tried to keep him. Then Ned comes, with Arthur's sword and the desire for his sister's son . . .
Tom O. User ID: 1327644	Jul 14th 9:25 AM Hrm. Once upon a time I tended to believe that there was a possiblilty that Ms. Dane was another caught up by Rhaegar. Although I am more inclined to believe an affair with Ned who had to give up the woman he loved to do his duty. Still. The above theory is interesting. Ran. Why do you think that Jon was not at the Tower of Joy? Tom O.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 14th 9:33 AM Hum. Well, it's just not mentioned. There's no child crying, and you think there would be one in a place where there's a dying young woman and the room smells of the life's blood that's poured out of her. Oh, and she was apparently screaming Ned's name, too. That should be enough to scare any kid, anyhow. I think Ned's story, of Lyanna dying in the mountains from some illness, is probably true enough. If that's the case, Jon might also have been taken away from the tower for his own safety because of his mother's illness.
Tom O. User ID: 1327644	Jul 14th 9:50 AM Gotcha. Interesting take on the situation. :) I always read the situation as the blood was caused by massive hymeraging (sp?) due to child birth. This reasoning also did not invalidate the twin theory on a different thread. But I see your reasoning. Never is it mentioned that a baby was crying. The child, Jon, is not mentioned in th gossip/history of the time prior to the return of Dawn to Ashra. Eddard shows up with a son, but we do not know how long he was traveling with the child. Gives me something more to think about while I await the book. :) Thanks Ran. Tom O.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jul 14th 10:29 AM Exactly, I always thought she was bleeding because she had just given birth. I always thought she put Jon in Ned's arms as she said "Promise me Ned". It has me completely befuddled and amazed that you assume Jon was not there because he was not mentioned. When you consider that childbirth was not mentioned in the tower of joy scene, it seemed natural to me that a child was not mentioned. However, while ASOS does not answer the question of where Jon was during the tower of joy in any definitive way, you may be right. Jon may not have been there and Ashara may have had some responsibility. (Again, not settled definitively in ASOS, so this is not a spoiler). This just amazes me.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jul 14th 10:31 AM Oh, but that opens up all kinds of possibilities that are not even hinted at in ASOS. Maybe she did not kill herself, maybe she was killed because she was in on the secret of Jon's birth.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 14th 10:32 AM Ahh, well, I always presumed she died a relatively-lingering death. Bleeding from damage from the birth, and childbed illness keeping her from healing properly. In part, I cook this up so as not to make Ned's statement to Robert a lie -- I think he's willing to work as near the truth as possible with people, even with this. The fact that they found Lyanna in Ned's arms after her death suggests that she hadn't given him Jon. He just stayed there, holding her, and there's no hint of anyone thinking anything about a child.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jul 14th 11:00 AM If she did not hand Ned Jon, I am not sure why we assume she died of childbirth. Could she have been stabbed? Also, you speak of Ned's statement to Robert being as near the truth as possible. Do you mean the statement about Wylla, and if so, how do we know that this is related to Ashara?
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jul 14th 11:08 AM Maybe lingering complications because of the child birth killed her. (that's what I've assumed) Being too sick to be moved to Starfall together with Jon, she opted not to let him remain with her alone, but give him into the care of Ashara Dayne. Or something to that effect.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 14th 11:42 AM I meant the statement where Ned tells Robert he was there when Lyanna died in the mountains. I can't find, exactly, where it is, but I have distinct memory of it. I'm pretty sure he attributes her death, to Robert at least, to an illness.
Alessa User ID: 9488873	Jul 14th 12:02 PM Only problem I have with Jon not being in the Tower of Joy is the Kingsguard. Shouldn't at least some of them be guarding Jon instead of Lyanna? I just don't see them leaving Jon without a guard.