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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / The Dragons and the Wall

Melanie
User ID: 1348824 Jul 6th 5:50 PM
Hi,
I�m so glad I found this site ! There are other people out there as mad about these books as me ! It�s so interesting to read peoples thoughts and theories about what�s going to happen next. Well I have no idea if these topics have been covered already but here�s of few of my thoughts/questions:
1.)I have a hunch that Daenerys�s three dragons will have a major part to play after all hell breaks lose at the wall. The only thing that kills the Others is fire and Dragons of course breath fire, perhaps she will unleash them (like Aegon Targaryen and his sisters did at the �Field of Fire (pg123 AGOT) when the Others etc try to invade. something to that effect I just have a hunch that they have something to do with what�s beyond the wall.
2.) What exactly is the Doom ? I can�t find the pages it�s something to do with the downfall of old Valyria I�m a bit rusty but If I remember correctly it was never explained properly.yet.
3.) Does anyone think that Valyria might in a way represent Egypt? Valarian sphinxes are mentioned pg191 AGOT and so it immediately made me think of Egypt. The Dorthraki might represent the Mongols of Asia ?
anyway I have to go but let me know what you think !
thanks Melanie

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Jul 6th 7:16 PM
Hi Melanie! This is a great board, enjoy yourself!
The Dothraki are definetly Mongol like, I thought. Not sure exactly what the Doom was, but I think it has something to do with magic leaving the world

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 6th 7:41 PM
Hi, Melanie. Welcome to the board. :)

1.) Very good possibility. :) The dragons will probably prove invaluable.

2.) The Doom is not explained in any detail, but there is a mosaic in Ilyrio's manse which depicts it. This suggests that it was something pretty visual. A lot of folk think it was something like Atlantis -- volcanoes, earthquakes, and so on.

3.) The Valyrians are a mixture of some historical elements, but mostly fantasy. The sphinxes speak of Egypt -- and of Greece as well, and some of their qualities do seem rather Greek. Further, straight roads are mentioned, and those remind one of the Roman empire. The Dothraki are much the same -- a mish-mash of elements (Mongols, Huns, Scythians, and pure fantasy.) :)

Son of Hot Pie
User ID: 9983153 Jul 7th 0:42 AM
The Valyrians also reminded me of the Babylonian and Sumerian sphinxes. More heavyset lion like bodies with wings and the heads of men.

Some of the statues in my History books are similar enough to the details in AGOT.

However, I also see the Egyptian elements.

Malice
User ID: 1759784 Jul 7th 4:29 PM
The Valyrians seem to be a cross between the Egyptians and the Babylonians (and maybe some Romans and Greeks), with the basic elements of an Atlantis-like fall.

Pretty cool.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jul 7th 10:39 PM
Atlantis is a good comparison, Malice. Pat yourself on the back. :)

cbudoris
User ID: 0408214 Jul 9th 1:41 AM
I also couldn't help but draw the comparisons between Martin's Valyria and Tolkien's Numeanor.
1.) Both were the dominent, magical empire in the past.

2.) They employed arts lost to the present peoples. Their peoples were regarded as superior (in abilities), and having a bit of the 'old' blood denotes possible magical powers.

3.) Both existed across a sea.

4.) A great catastrophie ended both empires, with a rag-tag remnent of survivors establishing a new, though diminished, kingdom.

Elaira
User ID: 0192094 Jul 12th 11:20 AM
On the Doom of Valyria, it don't think it sank like Atlantis because in AGot "the smoking ruins of old Valyria" are referred to.(pg 447,paperback) But maybe only part of it is underwater, or there are ruins outside of Valyria itself.

Gregg
User ID: 8214233 Jul 12th 9:05 PM
That's a nice thing about both Tolkien and GRRM. The 'fallen ancient empire' is a common element of western mythology.

As far as Valyria, I thought of the Ottoman empire, but I didn't read carefully for historical analogies. I'll have to go back and look at that again. In particular the racial characteristics of Valyrians, fair skin, hair, inbreeding, made me think of northern european areas that would have been part of the Ottoman empire.

One neat contrast between Numeanor and Valyria is their location and mythic status. Valyria was across the sea from Westeros, which correlates most closely with England. This has us looking at historical empires that included portions of Europe for models.

Numeanor was to the west, and is very inaccessable. It makes me think of the relationship between Europe and America before European explorers had crossed the Atlantic.

Kudos to GRRM for tapping that mythological vein without duplicating Tolkien.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jul 13th 8:27 AM
I think Numenor was linked, in Tolkien's mind, to the legend of Atlantis.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 13th 8:41 AM
Certainly was. It's named Atalant� ("the Downfallen"), and Tolkien names it his Atlantis story in one or three of his letters.

Also, as far as N�menor goes, its position in relation to Middle-earth is actually quite appropriate, looking at the Atlantis myth. Plato places Atlantis beyond the Pillars of Heracles (the straits of Gibraltar), and so in the Atlantic Ocean (which is why it has that name.)

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jul 13th 7:21 PM
Ran,

A special on Atlantis placed it there or on some recently found sunken ruins off the coast of Greece. They weren't able to fully investigate the finding since they were still waiting to get permission from the Greek govt to do various dives.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 13th 7:38 PM
Ahh, well. I figure that we sort of know the reality behind the story. "Atlantis" never existed, but it's not unlikely that the Atlantis myth is derived from the decline of the Minoan civilization (centered in Crete but extending among other islands in the Mediterranean) relatively close to the time of the massive volcanic explosion on Thera (Santorini.)

Whether the Thera explosion had a direct impact on the fate of the Minoans is somewhat debated. The latest evidence, as I remember, suggested that it did not, but it could swing another way easily if someone can show that the pottery sequencing is off or that the other methods of dating are not calibrated right.

It's all a matter of deciding if the ash fall was strong enough and came at a time where it was able to ruin local ecology for a long enough time to seriously disrupt the society

In any case, the explosion of Thera was ~1300-1200 BCE. Plato wrote that the event happened 9,000 years ago from his time, but this seems to be a transcription error from Egyptian to Greek (Plato states that he got the story from a Greek who got it from Egyptian mathematicians) and would fit very nicely if he meant 900 years.

There's also an interesting Egyptian record, from about the time of the Thera explosion, which talks of a massive tidal wave and darkness in the sky, IIRC...

Fascinating stuff.

Gregg
User ID: 8214233 Jul 13th 9:06 PM
Sorry, I was linking Numeanor to the elven lands over the ocean.

Son of Hot Pie!!!
User ID: 0276214 Jul 13th 10:55 PM
Heard about the Minoan culture but not so much the explosion. The TIMEFRAME books I have attribute it to a combination of factors but this is what keeps Historians passionate; being able to debate and find new evidence.

I believe this sunken culture was much closer to the Greek mainland but I'm not entirely sure.

As for advanced cultures, nothing like Atlantis in the movies certainly with steam ships. :) But, look to the Egyptians who were doing brain surgery and then fell into superstition among other things.

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 Jul 29th 9:59 PM
There are many different theories as to how the myth of Atlantis came about.

I, personally, lean towards the theories that tie together the "flood" and the fall of Atlantis. I can't remember the books which I researched when writing some lame report on Atlantis in college, but there are quite a few which study different disasters around the world and attempt to tie them into a single scenario.

Advanced societies, advanced architecture, natural disasters and cultural folly all seem to tie into Atlantis. Or, perhaps, those things are all dumped into the Atlantis myth. ;)

My personal guess is that Atlantis existed and was an advanced society, either outside the straights (the landmass that is now only represented by the canary islands above water) or inside the straights (crete, etc). Anyways, this "advanced" society was destroyed by a natural disaster and its inhabitants fled whereever they could. They brought stories of destruction and seemingly magical technology. They used some of their advanced knowledge to build new works and to influence those whom they fled to. As they died out, so did their knowledge. The whole thing became mythical and started to take on magical or religious overtones, as nothing but the memory remained.

Orson Scott Card tosses up a pretty solid version of an Atlantis theory in the novel Christopher Columbus: Pastwatch Redemption. Or is that Pastwatch: the redemption of CC? Anyways, he also goes over it in a short story called, hmm..., I think ATlantis on his web site. www.hatrack.com

Like stories of the flood (maybe the same stories), my opinion is that stories of Atlantis stem from geological or environmental changes. Most likely, the end of the ice age and the rise of the sea level. Card speculates that the red sea used to be dry land and the same has been speculated about the mediterranean (sic?). World changes, societies collapse, people blame gods or magic. The End. ;)

Melanie User ID: 1348824	Jul 6th 5:50 PM Hi, I�m so glad I found this site ! There are other people out there as mad about these books as me ! It�s so interesting to read peoples thoughts and theories about what�s going to happen next. Well I have no idea if these topics have been covered already but here�s of few of my thoughts/questions: 1.)I have a hunch that Daenerys�s three dragons will have a major part to play after all hell breaks lose at the wall. The only thing that kills the Others is fire and Dragons of course breath fire, perhaps she will unleash them (like Aegon Targaryen and his sisters did at the �Field of Fire (pg123 AGOT) when the Others etc try to invade. something to that effect I just have a hunch that they have something to do with what�s beyond the wall. 2.) What exactly is the Doom ? I can�t find the pages it�s something to do with the downfall of old Valyria I�m a bit rusty but If I remember correctly it was never explained properly.yet. 3.) Does anyone think that Valyria might in a way represent Egypt? Valarian sphinxes are mentioned pg191 AGOT and so it immediately made me think of Egypt. The Dorthraki might represent the Mongols of Asia ? anyway I have to go but let me know what you think ! thanks Melanie
Brady User ID: 0721754	Jul 6th 7:16 PM Hi Melanie! This is a great board, enjoy yourself! The Dothraki are definetly Mongol like, I thought. Not sure exactly what the Doom was, but I think it has something to do with magic leaving the world
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 6th 7:41 PM Hi, Melanie. Welcome to the board. :) 1.) Very good possibility. :) The dragons will probably prove invaluable. 2.) The Doom is not explained in any detail, but there is a mosaic in Ilyrio's manse which depicts it. This suggests that it was something pretty visual. A lot of folk think it was something like Atlantis -- volcanoes, earthquakes, and so on. 3.) The Valyrians are a mixture of some historical elements, but mostly fantasy. The sphinxes speak of Egypt -- and of Greece as well, and some of their qualities do seem rather Greek. Further, straight roads are mentioned, and those remind one of the Roman empire. The Dothraki are much the same -- a mish-mash of elements (Mongols, Huns, Scythians, and pure fantasy.) :)
Son of Hot Pie User ID: 9983153	Jul 7th 0:42 AM The Valyrians also reminded me of the Babylonian and Sumerian sphinxes. More heavyset lion like bodies with wings and the heads of men. Some of the statues in my History books are similar enough to the details in AGOT. However, I also see the Egyptian elements.
Malice User ID: 1759784	Jul 7th 4:29 PM The Valyrians seem to be a cross between the Egyptians and the Babylonians (and maybe some Romans and Greeks), with the basic elements of an Atlantis-like fall. Pretty cool.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jul 7th 10:39 PM Atlantis is a good comparison, Malice. Pat yourself on the back. :)
cbudoris User ID: 0408214	Jul 9th 1:41 AM I also couldn't help but draw the comparisons between Martin's Valyria and Tolkien's Numeanor. 1.) Both were the dominent, magical empire in the past. 2.) They employed arts lost to the present peoples. Their peoples were regarded as superior (in abilities), and having a bit of the 'old' blood denotes possible magical powers. 3.) Both existed across a sea. 4.) A great catastrophie ended both empires, with a rag-tag remnent of survivors establishing a new, though diminished, kingdom.
Elaira User ID: 0192094	Jul 12th 11:20 AM On the Doom of Valyria, it don't think it sank like Atlantis because in AGot "the smoking ruins of old Valyria" are referred to.(pg 447,paperback) But maybe only part of it is underwater, or there are ruins outside of Valyria itself.
Gregg User ID: 8214233	Jul 12th 9:05 PM That's a nice thing about both Tolkien and GRRM. The 'fallen ancient empire' is a common element of western mythology. As far as Valyria, I thought of the Ottoman empire, but I didn't read carefully for historical analogies. I'll have to go back and look at that again. In particular the racial characteristics of Valyrians, fair skin, hair, inbreeding, made me think of northern european areas that would have been part of the Ottoman empire. One neat contrast between Numeanor and Valyria is their location and mythic status. Valyria was across the sea from Westeros, which correlates most closely with England. This has us looking at historical empires that included portions of Europe for models. Numeanor was to the west, and is very inaccessable. It makes me think of the relationship between Europe and America before European explorers had crossed the Atlantic. Kudos to GRRM for tapping that mythological vein without duplicating Tolkien.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jul 13th 8:27 AM I think Numenor was linked, in Tolkien's mind, to the legend of Atlantis.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 13th 8:41 AM Certainly was. It's named Atalant� ("the Downfallen"), and Tolkien names it his Atlantis story in one or three of his letters. Also, as far as N�menor goes, its position in relation to Middle-earth is actually quite appropriate, looking at the Atlantis myth. Plato places Atlantis beyond the Pillars of Heracles (the straits of Gibraltar), and so in the Atlantic Ocean (which is why it has that name.)
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jul 13th 7:21 PM Ran, A special on Atlantis placed it there or on some recently found sunken ruins off the coast of Greece. They weren't able to fully investigate the finding since they were still waiting to get permission from the Greek govt to do various dives.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 13th 7:38 PM Ahh, well. I figure that we sort of know the reality behind the story. "Atlantis" never existed, but it's not unlikely that the Atlantis myth is derived from the decline of the Minoan civilization (centered in Crete but extending among other islands in the Mediterranean) relatively close to the time of the massive volcanic explosion on Thera (Santorini.) Whether the Thera explosion had a direct impact on the fate of the Minoans is somewhat debated. The latest evidence, as I remember, suggested that it did not, but it could swing another way easily if someone can show that the pottery sequencing is off or that the other methods of dating are not calibrated right. It's all a matter of deciding if the ash fall was strong enough and came at a time where it was able to ruin local ecology for a long enough time to seriously disrupt the society In any case, the explosion of Thera was ~1300-1200 BCE. Plato wrote that the event happened 9,000 years ago from his time, but this seems to be a transcription error from Egyptian to Greek (Plato states that he got the story from a Greek who got it from Egyptian mathematicians) and would fit very nicely if he meant 900 years. There's also an interesting Egyptian record, from about the time of the Thera explosion, which talks of a massive tidal wave and darkness in the sky, IIRC... Fascinating stuff.
Gregg User ID: 8214233	Jul 13th 9:06 PM Sorry, I was linking Numeanor to the elven lands over the ocean.
Son of Hot Pie!!! User ID: 0276214	Jul 13th 10:55 PM Heard about the Minoan culture but not so much the explosion. The TIMEFRAME books I have attribute it to a combination of factors but this is what keeps Historians passionate; being able to debate and find new evidence. I believe this sunken culture was much closer to the Greek mainland but I'm not entirely sure. As for advanced cultures, nothing like Atlantis in the movies certainly with steam ships. :) But, look to the Egyptians who were doing brain surgery and then fell into superstition among other things.
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	Jul 29th 9:59 PM There are many different theories as to how the myth of Atlantis came about. I, personally, lean towards the theories that tie together the "flood" and the fall of Atlantis. I can't remember the books which I researched when writing some lame report on Atlantis in college, but there are quite a few which study different disasters around the world and attempt to tie them into a single scenario. Advanced societies, advanced architecture, natural disasters and cultural folly all seem to tie into Atlantis. Or, perhaps, those things are all dumped into the Atlantis myth. ;) My personal guess is that Atlantis existed and was an advanced society, either outside the straights (the landmass that is now only represented by the canary islands above water) or inside the straights (crete, etc). Anyways, this "advanced" society was destroyed by a natural disaster and its inhabitants fled whereever they could. They brought stories of destruction and seemingly magical technology. They used some of their advanced knowledge to build new works and to influence those whom they fled to. As they died out, so did their knowledge. The whole thing became mythical and started to take on magical or religious overtones, as nothing but the memory remained. Orson Scott Card tosses up a pretty solid version of an Atlantis theory in the novel Christopher Columbus: Pastwatch Redemption. Or is that Pastwatch: the redemption of CC? Anyways, he also goes over it in a short story called, hmm..., I think ATlantis on his web site. www.hatrack.com Like stories of the flood (maybe the same stories), my opinion is that stories of Atlantis stem from geological or environmental changes. Most likely, the end of the ice age and the rise of the sea level. Card speculates that the red sea used to be dry land and the same has been speculated about the mediterranean (sic?). World changes, societies collapse, people blame gods or magic. The End. ;)