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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Ned's instructions for the North

Rania
User ID: 9719083 Aug 21st 8:14 PM
While re-reading parts of AGOT, I noticed, for the first time, the instructions that Ned gives to Catelyn for the defense of the North in case of war.
"Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy, if there is a war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."
(AGOT, Hardcover US editino, p. 170)
My questions are:
1. Did Catelyn ever bother to send those instructions to Robb? Did she even try?
2. I get the feeling that had Robb or anyone known of what Ned wanted done and if they had followed his orders (including not sending Theon to negotiate with his father -Robb's biggest mistake-)that the North would have been safe and well guarded even if Robb had called his banners and marched south when Ned was arrested.

Markus
User ID: 8820133 Aug 22nd 3:45 AM
In all likelihood she did. She reflected that she would have to send several letters -- Ned's instructions to her among them -- shortly before she entered the Eyrie.

We also know that Moat Cailin was fortified, and that White Harbor was strengthening its defenses.

Also, Cat pointed vehemently out that Robb shouldn't sent Theon back, just as Ned had advised her.

Thus, Cat is once again not to blame.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Aug 22nd 5:07 AM
Yeah, Cats not to blame for this one, Robb is just to trustworthy. He trusted Theon, he trusts the Freys, he trusts Roose Bolton (no I havent read ASOS, but I think its extremely likely that they betrayed Robb).

Hodor
User ID: 0819174 Aug 22nd 8:53 AM
I think that Balon Greyjoy is stupid.if he would've accepted Robb's offer they could've conquered Casterly Rock and keep it.Instead he chose to attack the north and fight alone against the starks when he could fight the lannisters with the starks and the tullys.

Ran
User ID: 0743024 Aug 22nd 9:06 AM
They couldn't take the Rock. Balon was right in that respect. Theon was being stupid.

Martin has said as much. The only way to take the Rock, if it has any sort of garrison, is to blockade it and starve out the defenders. And that would take years.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Aug 22nd 9:22 AM
Barring the implementation of dragons, of course...

Ran
User ID: 0743024 Aug 22nd 9:31 AM
That is true. I don't think anyone would try to hold the Rock against dragons, though. Or it'd go the way of Harrenhal. ;)

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Aug 22nd 3:06 PM
Again, I differ with Ran. As I said before, you could Catapault dead animals into the city, and sicken the city into submission. Also, you could send over the heads of Lannister dead until the city lost it's moral and surrendered, and fought half-heartedly.

I see to remember a story about some impregnable fortress in the south of france during midieval times that surrenderred when their lord went to parlay with the besiegers, and was captured by them instead. His fortress surrendered to get him back. Stupid move. Well, Robb's forces could parade Jaime in front of the City, and demand they surrender, or Jaime dies. Hmm, what would they do, face Tywins wrath for losing the city, or for losing Jaime.

ab

Ran
User ID: 0743024 Aug 22nd 3:18 PM
Casterly Rock isn't a city, but anyhow ...

The Rock is _big_. Because there are incredible depths under it, ancient abandoned mine shafts and whatnot. Dead bodies flung over your walls? No problem, just drag them down into the deepest mine shafts and forget about them. Try to kill moral? Of what? A garrison of picked troops who know their walls can't be broken and they can last for years against a siege?

The rest of what you say, yeah, possibly, except that Robb wouldn't use a hostage in that manner. That would be, I think, against the general tenants of honorable conduct towards a hostage during wartime. You execute him or you trade him for another prisoner (or prisoners) or you make him take the black, you don't go about using him as a petty bargaining chip to win a castle.

I don't think Tywin would do anything to the commander of the garrison at the Rock.

Gregg
User ID: 0339064 Aug 22nd 7:05 PM
One thing to consider is that there weren't any competent commanders left behind at The Rock. At the very least, Greyjoy could have succeeded in razing Lannisport and the surrounding fields, and capturing the merchant fleet.
That would have left the defenders of the rock with the choice of sending a sortie to stop the invaders with green troops, or just watching their source of income be burned to the ground.
Tywin took all the seasoned troops, and the levies proved their uselessness against Robb's army.
What I don't understand is why Balon didn't ally with someone. Is he just stupid, to not realize that when one or two strong kings finally emerge from the chaos, that he's just going to get beaten by one of them again? He has a tiny population and there are a half dozen stronger fleets on various parts of the island. Maybe he plans to secure his sovereignty by helping Tywin beat Robb?

Ran
User ID: 0743024 Aug 22nd 7:36 PM
Gregg,

Ser Daven Lannister escaped Oxcross and presumably retreated to Lannisport or the Rock with the remnants of the army his father had under his command. Given that Brynden Tully specifically took the time to note that Ser Daven was more formidable than his father (Uncle Dolt, Ser Stafford), I think he could be considered competent.

Lannisport is not the only source of income for the Westerlands. Cities and ships can re-built, but gold mines are harder to destroy in any permanent way, and the same with abominably strong castles like the Rock.

So, if the ironborn fell on Lannisport -- and presuming they managed to get past its walls -- I think Ser Daven (if he was in charge, which I think he would be) would not rush out to try to stop them. The Rock is more important.

Balon did try to ally, BTW. Tyrion recieves a letter from Balon, where he proclaims himself King of the North and the Iron Islands, and I believe it discusses fixing their respective borders and possible military alliance against Robb Stark.

Gregg
User ID: 0339064 Aug 22nd 10:00 PM
Good points, Ran.

I guess the only major remaining flaw in Balon's thinking is that Robb is the only person claiming a crown that doesn't consider the seven kingdoms a single indivisible domain. Everyone else will consider Balon a traitor when the dust settles.

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Aug 23rd 2:37 PM
I don't know Ran. If you wear a shirt that says, "I'm with Stupid", and person you're with is really stupid, what does that make you? It doesn't make you smart, it just makes you less stupid.

ab

Ran
User ID: 0743024 Aug 23rd 2:49 PM
Why would Brynden Tully bother mentioning Ser Daven if he was only a little smarter than his father? I don't think he would have bothered if he was an idiot.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Aug 23rd 3:18 PM
We know nothing about the height of the walls surrounding Casterly Rock, or whether those walls are built on top of Rock that is itself at a great height. It may well be impossible to fling dead bodies over those walls. And if you are going to be flinging dead bodies into a city, you have to gather and handle those bodies, which increases the liklihood that the besiegers themselves would get diseased. I mean, if that is such a foolproof tactics, why wasn't it used uniformly in every siege in the RL?

The fact is that strong, well-defended and well-supplied castles are extremely difficult to take.

Rania User ID: 9719083	Aug 21st 8:14 PM While re-reading parts of AGOT, I noticed, for the first time, the instructions that Ned gives to Catelyn for the defense of the North in case of war. "Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy, if there is a war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet." (AGOT, Hardcover US editino, p. 170) My questions are: 1. Did Catelyn ever bother to send those instructions to Robb? Did she even try? 2. I get the feeling that had Robb or anyone known of what Ned wanted done and if they had followed his orders (including not sending Theon to negotiate with his father -Robb's biggest mistake-)that the North would have been safe and well guarded even if Robb had called his banners and marched south when Ned was arrested.
Markus User ID: 8820133	Aug 22nd 3:45 AM In all likelihood she did. She reflected that she would have to send several letters -- Ned's instructions to her among them -- shortly before she entered the Eyrie. We also know that Moat Cailin was fortified, and that White Harbor was strengthening its defenses. Also, Cat pointed vehemently out that Robb shouldn't sent Theon back, just as Ned had advised her. Thus, Cat is once again not to blame.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Aug 22nd 5:07 AM Yeah, Cats not to blame for this one, Robb is just to trustworthy. He trusted Theon, he trusts the Freys, he trusts Roose Bolton (no I havent read ASOS, but I think its extremely likely that they betrayed Robb).
Hodor User ID: 0819174	Aug 22nd 8:53 AM I think that Balon Greyjoy is stupid.if he would've accepted Robb's offer they could've conquered Casterly Rock and keep it.Instead he chose to attack the north and fight alone against the starks when he could fight the lannisters with the starks and the tullys.
Ran User ID: 0743024	Aug 22nd 9:06 AM They couldn't take the Rock. Balon was right in that respect. Theon was being stupid. Martin has said as much. The only way to take the Rock, if it has any sort of garrison, is to blockade it and starve out the defenders. And that would take years.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Aug 22nd 9:22 AM Barring the implementation of dragons, of course...
Ran User ID: 0743024	Aug 22nd 9:31 AM That is true. I don't think anyone would try to hold the Rock against dragons, though. Or it'd go the way of Harrenhal. ;)
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Aug 22nd 3:06 PM Again, I differ with Ran. As I said before, you could Catapault dead animals into the city, and sicken the city into submission. Also, you could send over the heads of Lannister dead until the city lost it's moral and surrendered, and fought half-heartedly. I see to remember a story about some impregnable fortress in the south of france during midieval times that surrenderred when their lord went to parlay with the besiegers, and was captured by them instead. His fortress surrendered to get him back. Stupid move. Well, Robb's forces could parade Jaime in front of the City, and demand they surrender, or Jaime dies. Hmm, what would they do, face Tywins wrath for losing the city, or for losing Jaime. ab
Ran User ID: 0743024	Aug 22nd 3:18 PM Casterly Rock isn't a city, but anyhow ... The Rock is _big_. Because there are incredible depths under it, ancient abandoned mine shafts and whatnot. Dead bodies flung over your walls? No problem, just drag them down into the deepest mine shafts and forget about them. Try to kill moral? Of what? A garrison of picked troops who know their walls can't be broken and they can last for years against a siege? The rest of what you say, yeah, possibly, except that Robb wouldn't use a hostage in that manner. That would be, I think, against the general tenants of honorable conduct towards a hostage during wartime. You execute him or you trade him for another prisoner (or prisoners) or you make him take the black, you don't go about using him as a petty bargaining chip to win a castle. I don't think Tywin would do anything to the commander of the garrison at the Rock.
Gregg User ID: 0339064	Aug 22nd 7:05 PM One thing to consider is that there weren't any competent commanders left behind at The Rock. At the very least, Greyjoy could have succeeded in razing Lannisport and the surrounding fields, and capturing the merchant fleet. That would have left the defenders of the rock with the choice of sending a sortie to stop the invaders with green troops, or just watching their source of income be burned to the ground. Tywin took all the seasoned troops, and the levies proved their uselessness against Robb's army. What I don't understand is why Balon didn't ally with someone. Is he just stupid, to not realize that when one or two strong kings finally emerge from the chaos, that he's just going to get beaten by one of them again? He has a tiny population and there are a half dozen stronger fleets on various parts of the island. Maybe he plans to secure his sovereignty by helping Tywin beat Robb?
Ran User ID: 0743024	Aug 22nd 7:36 PM Gregg, Ser Daven Lannister escaped Oxcross and presumably retreated to Lannisport or the Rock with the remnants of the army his father had under his command. Given that Brynden Tully specifically took the time to note that Ser Daven was more formidable than his father (Uncle Dolt, Ser Stafford), I think he could be considered competent. Lannisport is not the only source of income for the Westerlands. Cities and ships can re-built, but gold mines are harder to destroy in any permanent way, and the same with abominably strong castles like the Rock. So, if the ironborn fell on Lannisport -- and presuming they managed to get past its walls -- I think Ser Daven (if he was in charge, which I think he would be) would not rush out to try to stop them. The Rock is more important. Balon did try to ally, BTW. Tyrion recieves a letter from Balon, where he proclaims himself King of the North and the Iron Islands, and I believe it discusses fixing their respective borders and possible military alliance against Robb Stark.
Gregg User ID: 0339064	Aug 22nd 10:00 PM Good points, Ran. I guess the only major remaining flaw in Balon's thinking is that Robb is the only person claiming a crown that doesn't consider the seven kingdoms a single indivisible domain. Everyone else will consider Balon a traitor when the dust settles.
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Aug 23rd 2:37 PM I don't know Ran. If you wear a shirt that says, "I'm with Stupid", and person you're with is really stupid, what does that make you? It doesn't make you smart, it just makes you less stupid. ab
Ran User ID: 0743024	Aug 23rd 2:49 PM Why would Brynden Tully bother mentioning Ser Daven if he was only a little smarter than his father? I don't think he would have bothered if he was an idiot.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Aug 23rd 3:18 PM We know nothing about the height of the walls surrounding Casterly Rock, or whether those walls are built on top of Rock that is itself at a great height. It may well be impossible to fling dead bodies over those walls. And if you are going to be flinging dead bodies into a city, you have to gather and handle those bodies, which increases the liklihood that the besiegers themselves would get diseased. I mean, if that is such a foolproof tactics, why wasn't it used uniformly in every siege in the RL? The fact is that strong, well-defended and well-supplied castles are extremely difficult to take.