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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Information tidbits from GRRM

Next 20 Messages

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 2nd 9:53 AM

I invite anyone who has been receiving additional ASOIAF-related information kindly provided by GRRM (signings, emails etc) to post it on this board so that fellow-revanshists might enjoy it too and refrain from plagueing him with the same questions over and over again.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 2nd 1:28 PM
I'll put up my collection (with contributions from the worthies KAH and Fourthman) after I've checked things with Mr. Martin about it. Last time I broached the subject on April 6th he gave this response:

"I would have no problem with you collecting my "words" (by which I assume you mean interviews, public comments, letters, etc, rather than fiction), provided that I could ask you to pull down anything I decided I did not want up there -- misquotes, outdated info, slips of the tongue, etc."

Which is very cool on the face of things, but I have noted some slips of the tongue and outdated info among what I've collected and I want him to have first-look rights, so to speak, to make sure it's what he wants.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 4th 7:48 AM
Some things GRRM mailed me:

1. About POVs and the statement that they have to be physically apart:

"Look at GAME OF THRONES -- there are plenty of places there where two or even three differenet POV characters are together in the same place at the same time. It's only later that they scattrer. There are no hard and fast "rules" for this. I use the POVs I need to tell the story... and I want each POV to have his or her own story within the story as well, i.e. to change and grow and develop."

2. About years and seasons (I posted this question in "character ages, too):

- My Question:
<< One last question: The people in the books count their ages in years.
These seem to have the same lengths as our years. But ours come from the seasons we have: The seasons in the seven kingdoms are much longer. How do they come to this way of counting time?>>

GRRMs answer:
"Years are no based on seasons, even in the real world. They are based on how long it takes the earth to revolve around the sun... i.e., on astronomy, the position of the sun and moon and stars. Ancient monuments like Stonehenge
and Newgrange served astronomical purposes as well as religious, and helped measure the passage of years, the summer and winter solstices, etc."

3. About sex and crime in the books:

My statement:
<<There is one other thing I wanted to tell you. On the Legends board and elsewhere I read some posts that critizise you way of displaying sex and brutality in SOIF. Though I am sure that you will not listen to them and continue writing just like you did, I want to beg you not to listen to them nevertheless. SOIF is so extraordinary because it is not sugar-coated. The characters are alive. And human. Humans sometimes are cruel. And humans have sex. Battles, rapes and treachery happen, and so they happen in your books.
There is too much of this superficial black-and-white fantasy already. Keep on giving us characters, not empty heros.>>

GRRMs answer:
"I agree... and right or wrong, this is the sort of story I have chosen to tell, and I'm certainly not about to change the tone in mid-story. But I
appreciate all your words of support."

That's my news from the Master.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 9th 10:34 AM
Well, a somewhat recent mail from Mr. Martin. Still not gotten off my question concerning my collection quite yet, I'm afraid. He's rather busy right now, as he's going to Philadelphia this week to speak to a local SF club. Really cool of him to spend time in his busy schedule to keep in touch with his fans -- that's something really rare in bestselling-type authors. :)

[First, being something of a heraldry buff, I was curious at the depiction of the Arryn moon-and-falcon in the appendix (and on the Swedish book cover.) I had assumed that something that stylized must have been designed with his input. But that's not quite the case . . .]

It has to do with a cover that you likely never saw; the =first= cover of the US hardcover, a painting by Stephen Youell that appeared on the ARCs but was scrapped in favor of the silver foil before publication (though it was used for the Swedish edition, of all things, so maybe you =have= seen it, if you have run into the Swedish edition). The scene it illustrates is Catelyn's meeting with Ser Brynden at the Bloody Gate. In the painting, Brynden is carrying a staff with an Arryn banner on it. My text had mentioned the Arryn "moon-and-falcon" but given no details, so Youell came up with the sigil as you see it. Then later, when we decided to put the sigils in the appendix, Virginia Norey did the designs... but on Arryn, she felt compelled to stick with Youell's version, since it was already "canon." By the time it was decided not to use the Youell cover, the Norey drawings were already done, so there we were. Which is a long way of saying... no, the Arryn sigil is not at all what I had originally imagined. When I was writing the book, in my head I saw a sky blue field with a large round full moon in its center, and a blue falcon soaring upward outlined against it.

[And then I learned a little bit more about the Hightowers (because I was curious to see if we'd learn much more about them, particularly given that Jorah Mormont's wife is a Hightower amongst the Free Cities)]:

The Hightowers can be legitimately referred to as being "of Hightower" or "of Oldtown," either one. Hightower is their castle/keep, the tallest structure in the Seven Kingdoms, and one of the oldest, a massive stepped tower with a great beacon on top, to show ships the way to port... kind of like the Pharos of Alexandria, but larger, an inhabited castle as well as a lighthouse. It stands in the center of Oldtown; the city grew up around it. And Oldtown =is= old, thousands of years old as opposed to King's Landing, which is only three hundred. Until Aegon's coming, it was the major city of Westeros. The Hightowers are one of the oldest families in the Seven Kingdoms.
This might apply a little to the nitpicks section. Oldtown is definently a city at least. He adds that we'll learn more about the maesters and the Citadel in future books (in pretty much that way -- no details or anything.)

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 9th 1:09 PM
I am sure most of you are not interested by this, but as you write all the time when you met the Master and got your books signed, I add it nevertheless:

He's in Germany next year, in October! :-)))
Well, I think this was rather useless... I seem to be the only german here at the board. But still, it's information, is it not? ;-)

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 9th 1:30 PM
Neat, Min. Uhm . . . does he have his itenary so planned out that he knows what he's doing more than a year from now? ;)

And do you know if it's just Germany he's dropping by (some convention?) or did he mention if he's goign about the rest of Europe?

Maybe some of us folk in the Scandinavian countries can bribe him into dropping by some reasonable place . . . . ;)

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 10th 4:19 AM

Where in Germany will Martin do his signing? I am from Austria and might drop by if it's in M�nchen or Berlin.

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 10th 4:29 AM

Ah, yes. Will someone from this board visit the Philadelphia meeting with GRRM? I am sure that everyone here will be most eager to learn more about it and perhaps suggest some questions for Martin.

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 10th 3:15 PM

KAH, User ID: 9209903
Apr 28th 11:37 AM
I just received the answer from GRRM, and, unsurprisingly, it was more or less a RAFO.

Here it is anyway:

<mail>
--------------------------------------------------

From: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
To:[email protected]
Subject: Re: The Red Fork fords...
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:42:12 EDT

Well, you will need to wait for A STORM OF SWORDS for some of your answers,I'm afraid. I will clarify one minor point, however. To wit:

<< However, the situation when Stannis was caught from the behind by Tywin and Loras was a little strange. It seems to me that a supposedly seasoned commander like Stannis would have watched his back
and not let himself be taken by surprise. Unless he thought the Lannisters were far away, though. >>

Stannis did think the Lannisters were far away... but more crucially, the clansmen that Tyrion sent into the kingswood (Shagga and the Stone Crows,
Timett and the Burned Men, etc) were hunting down Stannis's scouts and outriders, anyone who strayed too far from the main columns.He was effectively blinded.

--------------------------------------------------
</mail>

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 10th 3:39 PM

KAH
User ID: 9209903
May 10th 4:50 AM
BTW, I received answer today, on the mail I sent to GRRM about the Citadel. Seems like Markus was right...

<mail>
--------------------------------------------------

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Citadel
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 19:00:13 EDT

In a message dated 5/4/99 11:04:26 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< What I would like to know; -What are the criterions for being allowed into the Citadel for maester education? Could a dwarf in his late twenties like Tyrion be allowed in? >>

You'll learn more about the Citadel in future books. In brief, however, there's no age requirement... nor any other sort of requirement, actually. The Citadel is very loosely structured, and open to all. That doesn't mean that all become maesters, however.Oldtown is full of aging novices and acolytes who have never finished forging their chain (or in some cases, never begun)... the Seven Kingdoms equivilent to the eternal grad student of our world.

--------------------------------------------------

</mail>

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 12th 4:42 AM
labor: GRRM will be in Leipzig on a concention in October next year. Yes, he seems to have his schedule well organized :-). Old TV guy, he is. I know what _that_ is like :-).

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 12th 3:20 PM

From the Legends Board:

Posted by George R.R. Martin on May 09, 1999 at 12:29:41

In Reply to: Re: Tyrion Lannister-The Imp posted by Elio M.
Garcia, Jr. on May 09, 1999 at 07:42:14

Re: Tyrion Lannister-The Imp

Tyrion has been trained at arms, insofar as he could be
in view of his handicaps. And he always goes into battle
well mounted, well armored, leading men, with a
personal protector close at hand (Bronn on the Green
Fork, Ser Mandon on the Blackwater). Nonetheless, he
is wounded in one battle and nearly killed in the other.
He can hold his own in the chaos of battle, for a time at
least, but that does not mean he is an especially skilled
fighter... that distinction belongs to his brother.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 12th 3:57 PM
Okay, that promised file is up in plain text format.

It's not pretty, the division just doesn't work all that well in text, but whatever. ;)

I'll note that I've actually still to get precise authorization for the current stuff in there from Mr. Martin. So . . . things in there might change without notice, if GRRM decides that what he said just doesn't work. And, also, one or two tidbits that seemed particularly sensitive (perhaps on the order of (as example) Revanshe learning the two POV characters) and so those aren't in there (and won't necessarily ever be there ... we'll see what GRRM says.)

The link is:

http://members.xoom.com/Nymeria/SoSpakeMartin.txt

And, yes, it's not wrapping right (at least on mine). Not quite sure why. Can just select all and paste it into some other application as necessary I guess. Eventually it'll be nicely formatted and up in some other format or other.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 15th 6:43 AM
This is from a mail Mr. Martin sent me on the 11th. Just a snippet from questions about historical stuff.

". . .the Mudds and Fishers were two dynasties of
River Kings, who ruled the lands around the Trident in ancient times, but were destroyed in wars by the Storm Kings or Ironmen."

I suspect that the Fishers were the last River Kings, the line ended by Harwyn Hardhand, grandfather of Harren the Black. Though it might be the Mudds -- depends on if he was speaking respectively or not.

Markus
User ID: 2936914 May 15th 7:51 AM
Actually, the Storm Kings ended the line of the last River Kings, ca. 700 years ago IIRC.

Harwyn Hardhand took the Trident from the Storm King Arrec.

I guess the older River King line was destroyed by the Ironmen.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 15th 9:16 AM
Hrm, yeah, my error. I need to re-read GoT someday when I've more time. Still chipping away at CoK.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 15th 9:22 AM
I'll add that I'd take the guess that the older line ended about c. 1000 years ago -- just recalled from CoK (and the GoT paperback preview) that Theon thinks of the Bloody Keep and its history. Probably the line was wiped out by the killing of the River King's sons then.

Markus
User ID: 2936914 May 15th 10:21 AM
Perhaps.

On the other hand, the River King was still alive, thus he could have fathered another child, and I also don't know if I would term the time of 1000 - 650 years ago ancient.

Do you even know if the Mudds and Fishers are Andal lines, or is it even possible that Martin was referring to Riverkings in the Age of Heroes (there should have been kingdoms before the Long Night, even before the Seven Kingdoms were carved), and/or in the time between the Long Night and the conquest of the Riverlands by the Andals?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 15th 11:31 AM
Don't know -- I was speculating. ;) I could ask, however.

Markus
User ID: 2547224 May 15th 4:12 PM
Well, we are all speculating.:)

However, asking Mr. Martin would be great.

And when you are already asking historic stuff, you could also ask why the Iron Islands were conquered only 4000 years later as the rest of Westeros (except the north) by the Andals and by whom exactly?

In this regard, it would also interest me, which origin the Ironmen have. Were they of the same blood as the First Men, before they intermarried with the Andals, or do they have another origin?

And finally, how was Dorne ruled before Nymeria?

Were the Martells ruling it, another family or didn't they have a single ruler?

Next 20 Messages

labor User ID: 8479113	May 2nd 9:53 AM I invite anyone who has been receiving additional ASOIAF-related information kindly provided by GRRM (signings, emails etc) to post it on this board so that fellow-revanshists might enjoy it too and refrain from plagueing him with the same questions over and over again.
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 2nd 1:28 PM I'll put up my collection (with contributions from the worthies KAH and Fourthman) after I've checked things with Mr. Martin about it. Last time I broached the subject on April 6th he gave this response: "I would have no problem with you collecting my "words" (by which I assume you mean interviews, public comments, letters, etc, rather than fiction), provided that I could ask you to pull down anything I decided I did not want up there -- misquotes, outdated info, slips of the tongue, etc." Which is very cool on the face of things, but I have noted some slips of the tongue and outdated info among what I've collected and I want him to have first-look rights, so to speak, to make sure it's what he wants.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 4th 7:48 AM Some things GRRM mailed me: 1. About POVs and the statement that they have to be physically apart: "Look at GAME OF THRONES -- there are plenty of places there where two or even three differenet POV characters are together in the same place at the same time. It's only later that they scattrer. There are no hard and fast "rules" for this. I use the POVs I need to tell the story... and I want each POV to have his or her own story within the story as well, i.e. to change and grow and develop." 2. About years and seasons (I posted this question in "character ages, too): - My Question: << One last question: The people in the books count their ages in years. These seem to have the same lengths as our years. But ours come from the seasons we have: The seasons in the seven kingdoms are much longer. How do they come to this way of counting time?>> GRRMs answer: "Years are no based on seasons, even in the real world. They are based on how long it takes the earth to revolve around the sun... i.e., on astronomy, the position of the sun and moon and stars. Ancient monuments like Stonehenge and Newgrange served astronomical purposes as well as religious, and helped measure the passage of years, the summer and winter solstices, etc." 3. About sex and crime in the books: My statement: <<There is one other thing I wanted to tell you. On the Legends board and elsewhere I read some posts that critizise you way of displaying sex and brutality in SOIF. Though I am sure that you will not listen to them and continue writing just like you did, I want to beg you not to listen to them nevertheless. SOIF is so extraordinary because it is not sugar-coated. The characters are alive. And human. Humans sometimes are cruel. And humans have sex. Battles, rapes and treachery happen, and so they happen in your books. There is too much of this superficial black-and-white fantasy already. Keep on giving us characters, not empty heros.>> GRRMs answer: "I agree... and right or wrong, this is the sort of story I have chosen to tell, and I'm certainly not about to change the tone in mid-story. But I appreciate all your words of support." That's my news from the Master.
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 9th 10:34 AM Well, a somewhat recent mail from Mr. Martin. Still not gotten off my question concerning my collection quite yet, I'm afraid. He's rather busy right now, as he's going to Philadelphia this week to speak to a local SF club. Really cool of him to spend time in his busy schedule to keep in touch with his fans -- that's something really rare in bestselling-type authors. :) [First, being something of a heraldry buff, I was curious at the depiction of the Arryn moon-and-falcon in the appendix (and on the Swedish book cover.) I had assumed that something that stylized must have been designed with his input. But that's not quite the case . . .] It has to do with a cover that you likely never saw; the =first= cover of the US hardcover, a painting by Stephen Youell that appeared on the ARCs but was scrapped in favor of the silver foil before publication (though it was used for the Swedish edition, of all things, so maybe you =have= seen it, if you have run into the Swedish edition). The scene it illustrates is Catelyn's meeting with Ser Brynden at the Bloody Gate. In the painting, Brynden is carrying a staff with an Arryn banner on it. My text had mentioned the Arryn "moon-and-falcon" but given no details, so Youell came up with the sigil as you see it. Then later, when we decided to put the sigils in the appendix, Virginia Norey did the designs... but on Arryn, she felt compelled to stick with Youell's version, since it was already "canon." By the time it was decided not to use the Youell cover, the Norey drawings were already done, so there we were. Which is a long way of saying... no, the Arryn sigil is not at all what I had originally imagined. When I was writing the book, in my head I saw a sky blue field with a large round full moon in its center, and a blue falcon soaring upward outlined against it. [And then I learned a little bit more about the Hightowers (because I was curious to see if we'd learn much more about them, particularly given that Jorah Mormont's wife is a Hightower amongst the Free Cities)]: The Hightowers can be legitimately referred to as being "of Hightower" or "of Oldtown," either one. Hightower is their castle/keep, the tallest structure in the Seven Kingdoms, and one of the oldest, a massive stepped tower with a great beacon on top, to show ships the way to port... kind of like the Pharos of Alexandria, but larger, an inhabited castle as well as a lighthouse. It stands in the center of Oldtown; the city grew up around it. And Oldtown =is= old, thousands of years old as opposed to King's Landing, which is only three hundred. Until Aegon's coming, it was the major city of Westeros. The Hightowers are one of the oldest families in the Seven Kingdoms. This might apply a little to the nitpicks section. Oldtown is definently a city at least. He adds that we'll learn more about the maesters and the Citadel in future books (in pretty much that way -- no details or anything.)
Min User ID: 9433023	May 9th 1:09 PM I am sure most of you are not interested by this, but as you write all the time when you met the Master and got your books signed, I add it nevertheless: He's in Germany next year, in October! :-))) Well, I think this was rather useless... I seem to be the only german here at the board. But still, it's information, is it not? ;-)
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 9th 1:30 PM Neat, Min. Uhm . . . does he have his itenary so planned out that he knows what he's doing more than a year from now? ;) And do you know if it's just Germany he's dropping by (some convention?) or did he mention if he's goign about the rest of Europe? Maybe some of us folk in the Scandinavian countries can bribe him into dropping by some reasonable place . . . . ;)
labor User ID: 8479113	May 10th 4:19 AM Where in Germany will Martin do his signing? I am from Austria and might drop by if it's in M�nchen or Berlin.
labor User ID: 8479113	May 10th 4:29 AM Ah, yes. Will someone from this board visit the Philadelphia meeting with GRRM? I am sure that everyone here will be most eager to learn more about it and perhaps suggest some questions for Martin.
labor User ID: 8479113	May 10th 3:15 PM KAH, User ID: 9209903 Apr 28th 11:37 AM I just received the answer from GRRM, and, unsurprisingly, it was more or less a RAFO. Here it is anyway: <mail> -------------------------------------------------- From: [email protected] Reply-To: [email protected] To:[email protected] Subject: Re: The Red Fork fords... Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:42:12 EDT Well, you will need to wait for A STORM OF SWORDS for some of your answers,I'm afraid. I will clarify one minor point, however. To wit: << However, the situation when Stannis was caught from the behind by Tywin and Loras was a little strange. It seems to me that a supposedly seasoned commander like Stannis would have watched his back and not let himself be taken by surprise. Unless he thought the Lannisters were far away, though. >> Stannis did think the Lannisters were far away... but more crucially, the clansmen that Tyrion sent into the kingswood (Shagga and the Stone Crows, Timett and the Burned Men, etc) were hunting down Stannis's scouts and outriders, anyone who strayed too far from the main columns.He was effectively blinded. -------------------------------------------------- </mail>
labor User ID: 8479113	May 10th 3:39 PM KAH User ID: 9209903 May 10th 4:50 AM BTW, I received answer today, on the mail I sent to GRRM about the Citadel. Seems like Markus was right... <mail> -------------------------------------------------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: The Citadel Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 19:00:13 EDT In a message dated 5/4/99 11:04:26 AM Mountain Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << What I would like to know; -What are the criterions for being allowed into the Citadel for maester education? Could a dwarf in his late twenties like Tyrion be allowed in? >> You'll learn more about the Citadel in future books. In brief, however, there's no age requirement... nor any other sort of requirement, actually. The Citadel is very loosely structured, and open to all. That doesn't mean that all become maesters, however.Oldtown is full of aging novices and acolytes who have never finished forging their chain (or in some cases, never begun)... the Seven Kingdoms equivilent to the eternal grad student of our world. -------------------------------------------------- </mail>
Min User ID: 9433023	May 12th 4:42 AM labor: GRRM will be in Leipzig on a concention in October next year. Yes, he seems to have his schedule well organized :-). Old TV guy, he is. I know what _that_ is like :-).
labor User ID: 8479113	May 12th 3:20 PM From the Legends Board: Posted by George R.R. Martin on May 09, 1999 at 12:29:41 In Reply to: Re: Tyrion Lannister-The Imp posted by Elio M. Garcia, Jr. on May 09, 1999 at 07:42:14 Re: Tyrion Lannister-The Imp Tyrion has been trained at arms, insofar as he could be in view of his handicaps. And he always goes into battle well mounted, well armored, leading men, with a personal protector close at hand (Bronn on the Green Fork, Ser Mandon on the Blackwater). Nonetheless, he is wounded in one battle and nearly killed in the other. He can hold his own in the chaos of battle, for a time at least, but that does not mean he is an especially skilled fighter... that distinction belongs to his brother.
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 12th 3:57 PM Okay, that promised file is up in plain text format. It's not pretty, the division just doesn't work all that well in text, but whatever. ;) I'll note that I've actually still to get precise authorization for the current stuff in there from Mr. Martin. So . . . things in there might change without notice, if GRRM decides that what he said just doesn't work. And, also, one or two tidbits that seemed particularly sensitive (perhaps on the order of (as example) Revanshe learning the two POV characters) and so those aren't in there (and won't necessarily ever be there ... we'll see what GRRM says.) The link is: http://members.xoom.com/Nymeria/SoSpakeMartin.txt And, yes, it's not wrapping right (at least on mine). Not quite sure why. Can just select all and paste it into some other application as necessary I guess. Eventually it'll be nicely formatted and up in some other format or other.
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 15th 6:43 AM This is from a mail Mr. Martin sent me on the 11th. Just a snippet from questions about historical stuff. ". . .the Mudds and Fishers were two dynasties of River Kings, who ruled the lands around the Trident in ancient times, but were destroyed in wars by the Storm Kings or Ironmen." I suspect that the Fishers were the last River Kings, the line ended by Harwyn Hardhand, grandfather of Harren the Black. Though it might be the Mudds -- depends on if he was speaking respectively or not.
Markus User ID: 2936914	May 15th 7:51 AM Actually, the Storm Kings ended the line of the last River Kings, ca. 700 years ago IIRC. Harwyn Hardhand took the Trident from the Storm King Arrec. I guess the older River King line was destroyed by the Ironmen.
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 15th 9:16 AM Hrm, yeah, my error. I need to re-read GoT someday when I've more time. Still chipping away at CoK.
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 15th 9:22 AM I'll add that I'd take the guess that the older line ended about c. 1000 years ago -- just recalled from CoK (and the GoT paperback preview) that Theon thinks of the Bloody Keep and its history. Probably the line was wiped out by the killing of the River King's sons then.
Markus User ID: 2936914	May 15th 10:21 AM Perhaps. On the other hand, the River King was still alive, thus he could have fathered another child, and I also don't know if I would term the time of 1000 - 650 years ago ancient. Do you even know if the Mudds and Fishers are Andal lines, or is it even possible that Martin was referring to Riverkings in the Age of Heroes (there should have been kingdoms before the Long Night, even before the Seven Kingdoms were carved), and/or in the time between the Long Night and the conquest of the Riverlands by the Andals?
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 15th 11:31 AM Don't know -- I was speculating. ;) I could ask, however.
Markus User ID: 2547224	May 15th 4:12 PM Well, we are all speculating.:) However, asking Mr. Martin would be great. And when you are already asking historic stuff, you could also ask why the Iron Islands were conquered only 4000 years later as the rest of Westeros (except the north) by the Andals and by whom exactly? In this regard, it would also interest me, which origin the Ironmen have. Were they of the same blood as the First Men, before they intermarried with the Andals, or do they have another origin? And finally, how was Dorne ruled before Nymeria? Were the Martells ruling it, another family or didn't they have a single ruler?