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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / Talking Names

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Min
User ID: 9433023 May 8th 5:39 AM
Perhaps this topic is interesting for some of you who like language.
(Perhaps you'll find it totally boring ;-))

I just thought about the sense behind the names GRRM chose for his protagonists. Some of them seem to tell things about the owner of the name.
Some examples:

"Greyjoy" - gives a hint to Theon's black humor from the first minute we meet him. It also may hint on the dark delvelpoment Theon goes through.

"Stark" - Did you know that "stark", written and pronounced exactly the same way as the family's name, means "strong"?

"Sansa" - sounds very much like "sense", and Sansa indeed is the best-educated of the Stark children.

"Jon Snow" - the whole name has a dark sounding to it, I think it implies that the bearer has hardships to go through.

"Viserys" This may be overinterpreting, but it has a hypocritical, false, mad sound to my ears.

I could continue like that, but I will wait until I know if any of you is interested to discuss this. Being German, I think I may very well miss some hidden meaning in the English names, and as this interests me, I would be grateful if you could provide me with more suggestions.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 8th 5:41 AM
I forgot to say: "Stark" means "strong" in German, of course.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 May 8th 6:21 AM
Also in Swedish, and perhaps some other Germanic languages, Min.

Although I expect he uses it primarily in the English sense -- spare, bare adn blunt, forbidding in appearance.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 8th 6:58 AM
that was the english meaning?
you see, that was what I meant with "providing me with other possibilities". thanks, Ran.

"Loras Tyrell" sounds very flowerish, does it not. And Loras is close to Flora, too.

Keri Stevenson
User ID: 8805943 May 8th 9:00 AM
The Targaryen names struck me as exotic (especially compared to the rest of the names in Westeros, most of which have an English sound to my ears) and beautiful- the kind of names that would be elvish in another series. And they look inhuman- I think it mentions that word specifically in one of the books, though I can't remember where- with indigo or violet eyes and silver-gold hair. And they are of "the blood of Old Valyria," whatever that means. Perhaps it has some of the significance that the old blood does for the Starks.

The Stark name, to me, fits their land. It can also mean "standing out harshly," like a tree "stark against the landscape." That's probably the way a lot of the north looks.

Arya- I haven't ever heard of this name or been able to find it anywhere, except that I do know a woman from India whose last name is Arya. I asked her if she knew what it meant, and she said she didn't. Ever since then, and especially since _A Clash of Kings_, it's come to suggest a kind of dark mystery to me.

Littlefinger- Perhaps a play on words, like the phrase "He's got more sense in his little finger than you have in your whole body."

Bran- Means "raven" in one of the Celtic languages- Welsh, I think. Someone brought it up on another board once. This could explain why Bran keeps seeing ravens.

Myrcella, Cersei- These names are probably the least English-sounding names in Westeros. Possibly they've been influenced by my perception of the characters, but to my ears they do suggest something strange about the girl and woman who bear them.

Lysa- Depending on how you pronounced it, could be "lie-sa." Deception?

Sorry for babbling on, but I really *love* names, and I'm sorry someone didn't think of this topic before now! :).

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 May 8th 9:51 AM
How about someone with a name like Roose Bolton, which I have extrapolated into "ruse" and "boltin'". What am I implying? This guy is sneaky and will turn against Robb.

Then there is Walder Frey, which can be broken down into "there's a wall there keeping me out of the fray." Well, I'll admit that's a rather weak interpretation, but it seems to suit this man.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 9th 1:17 PM
Oh, Keri, do not apologize! I loooved your hints. As I said above, the explanations were really helpful to me. "Bran" meaning "raven" - well, _that's_ obvious, is it not?

The "Freys" - I liked your explication, Gary, but Frey has yet another sound to me. The german word "frei" means free, and in the middle ages it even was spelled "frey", and thus pronounced, too. The Freys are somewhat the Swiss of Westeros, they try to keep their noses out of everything, don't they?

The explanation of Roose Bolton is pretty good. Can Bolton also be compared to "bold"?

And, yes, the Targaryans seem to be elfish. Their violett eyes and silver hair imply this. I think Dany, from looks, character and everything was a complete counterpart to Drogo. From the name, too. A pity that Rhaegar died... I would have liked to know what a son of theirs would be like...

Keri Stevenson
User ID: 9872353 May 10th 7:07 AM
I have a, perhaps, somewhat simplistic explanation of Frey :), but here it is: they're in a fray constantly becuase there are so many of them it's ridiculous.

I think there may be a certain point to abbreviating Dany's name, and it could be taken one of two ways: to make her sound a bit more 'masculine,' or to simplify it. After all, Daenerys would get a bit overwhelming if we saw it all the time.

Drogo to me has a harder sound, a lot like "dog." Which, in some ways, he was :).

I've brought this point up before, but the name "Varys" does sound an awful lot like the Targaryens'. Maybe it's meant to give him the same air of mystery and danger and 'otherness' that they have.

Sam: A good, simple, strong name, perhaps the perfect counterpart to Jon.

Jorah: This is really stretching it, but perhaps meant to sound a little bit like Judas?

Thanks again for setting up this board, Min, so I'll have a place to babble :).

labor
User ID: 8479113 May 10th 10:57 AM

Wasn't Varys from the Free Cities, where they still speak some form of Valyrian? It would explain why his name sounds like that of Targaryens - they are of the same language origin.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 12th 4:38 AM
Keri: You do not babble. And if you do, it's the kind of babble I like :-)

Jorah and Judas... not bad, really. That would mean that he is to betray Dany. Do you think he will?

Yes, labor, Varys told Ned he was from the Free Cities. And his name reminds a bit of "Valyrian", does it not? Targaryans and Valyian both seem to have lots of "a" and "y" vocals, that makes a connection between Varys and Targaryans or Valyrians possible.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 12th 4:46 AM
As I just thought about Theon. We already talked about "Greyjoy".
"Theon" is the greek word for "God".

Keri Stevenson
User ID: 0185894 May 12th 7:19 AM
Min: Thank you for the compliment. And maybe Theon's name is meant to be indicative of what he thinks he is :).

I think Jorah will betray Dany, yes. At the moment, he seems the most likely candidate- close to her, half in love with her, may have lied about Rhaego, was in Varys's pay and so already half- betrayed her, etc.

Here are a few other names:

Robb: Robb is the only trueborn Stark child whose name is only one syllable (Bran's name is Brandon). This might be meant to convey a stolidity of character and a strength that the others don't have. A harsh, round sound.

Jaime: The first King James of England was a weak man, obsessed with asserting the divine right of kings (he disbanded Parliament for a while). Jaime is not weak in the sense of physical power, but as far as the power-obsession goes...

Tywin: This might be meant to rhyme with "lion," at least the way I pronounce it :). It also has the word "win" in it, more prosaically. Perhaps to suggest victory?

Rickon: Resembles the words "wreck" and "reckless." And Rickon seems to be growing steadily more wild...

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 12th 8:16 AM
Jaime: Yes, parallels to James of England. Jaime also sounds even more weak (in character), like a person bound to pleasure, not thinking about others.

I agree about Rickon. He seems to be very unsteady. A very young copy of - Theon ;-).

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 May 12th 8:45 AM
I like some of these name associations I've been reading. Keri, with regard to Tywin, I suppose there are actually three possible outcomes of a battle: a loss, a win or a draw or tie. Perhaps Tywin is willing to settle for two of these outcomes: tie and win. Alright, that's a little wacky.

On one of the other boards, I think it was RDS who associated the names of Sandor and Sansa with their "san" beginnings....which can be translated to mean "saint". Might this be a hint that they'll die together while engaged in a worthy cause?

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 12th 9:58 AM
Oh, a tragic death would really make sense to me. It would fit GRRM's kinds of plots... I know I will cry then (I already cried when Lady was killed - but not when Ned died. Strange, isn't it?)

Captain Dirjj
User ID: 9621663 May 13th 0:25 AM
I think of Tywin as Tyrant. Kinda simple huh?

ab

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 13th 3:36 AM
So many suggestions for Tywin... and all make kinda sense :-)

Keri Stevenson
User ID: 9872353 May 13th 7:02 AM
Min: *Please* don't suggest that Rickon was influenced by Theon :). I'm betting strongly on him dying, in one way or another, by the end of _A Storm of Swords_, and I want his influence gone from the world :).

Ser Gary: I do like that explanation of Tywin... doesn't sound any more wacky than my suggesting that the first syllable of "Lysa" has something to do with lies and deception.

Loras: I really don't think that the first syllable of the name, in this case, has anything to do with "lore," or being clever or wise :). It might be meant to suggest "lord," or perhaps "laurel"- as laurel was used for the victor's crown in Greece, and he is seen as a victor, and his family's symbol is a flower. That's even more wacky :).

Clegane: This has a heavy, ugly sound to me, and it almost looks like "clang." Hopefully, someday, the sound Gregor will make in spilling from the saddle :).

Tyrion: The last syllables of his name look even more like "lion" than Tywin's do. On the other hand, it also looks more like "tyrant."

Emily
User ID: 0087674 May 13th 7:03 AM
Well, I see Robb's name as a straight-forward description of what he does - rob the Seven Kingdoms of half its land.

Sansa - I have to disagree, Min, she may be well-educated but she has the least sense of any of the Starks, with the possible exception of her insane 4-year old brother Rickon.

I also take a different view of Jon Snow: snow is blinding white and pure, not dark. I can never think of the Bastard of Bolton as 'Snow'.

Catelyn - a very unsuitable name - she doesn't remind me of a cat but of a dog, devoted to its Master, Ned.

Anything with 'joy' in it is incredibly unsuitable for dear Theon, or indeed any of that miserable bunch of Kraken-lovers (except Asha, of course). At least the name also contains Grey, though black might be more suitable.

Min
User ID: 9433023 May 13th 8:30 AM
Emily: Thank you so much for your description od Cat - I heartily agree :-)

Tyrion is, I think, a greek name, too, like Theon, but I don't recall its meaning. I will look it up for you...

(and I may be wrong - may it be that you don't _like_ Theon? :-))

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Min User ID: 9433023	May 8th 5:39 AM Perhaps this topic is interesting for some of you who like language. (Perhaps you'll find it totally boring ;-)) I just thought about the sense behind the names GRRM chose for his protagonists. Some of them seem to tell things about the owner of the name. Some examples: "Greyjoy" - gives a hint to Theon's black humor from the first minute we meet him. It also may hint on the dark delvelpoment Theon goes through. "Stark" - Did you know that "stark", written and pronounced exactly the same way as the family's name, means "strong"? "Sansa" - sounds very much like "sense", and Sansa indeed is the best-educated of the Stark children. "Jon Snow" - the whole name has a dark sounding to it, I think it implies that the bearer has hardships to go through. "Viserys" This may be overinterpreting, but it has a hypocritical, false, mad sound to my ears. I could continue like that, but I will wait until I know if any of you is interested to discuss this. Being German, I think I may very well miss some hidden meaning in the English names, and as this interests me, I would be grateful if you could provide me with more suggestions.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 8th 5:41 AM I forgot to say: "Stark" means "strong" in German, of course.
Ran User ID: 0283314	May 8th 6:21 AM Also in Swedish, and perhaps some other Germanic languages, Min. Although I expect he uses it primarily in the English sense -- spare, bare adn blunt, forbidding in appearance.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 8th 6:58 AM that was the english meaning? you see, that was what I meant with "providing me with other possibilities". thanks, Ran. "Loras Tyrell" sounds very flowerish, does it not. And Loras is close to Flora, too.
Keri Stevenson User ID: 8805943	May 8th 9:00 AM The Targaryen names struck me as exotic (especially compared to the rest of the names in Westeros, most of which have an English sound to my ears) and beautiful- the kind of names that would be elvish in another series. And they look inhuman- I think it mentions that word specifically in one of the books, though I can't remember where- with indigo or violet eyes and silver-gold hair. And they are of "the blood of Old Valyria," whatever that means. Perhaps it has some of the significance that the old blood does for the Starks. The Stark name, to me, fits their land. It can also mean "standing out harshly," like a tree "stark against the landscape." That's probably the way a lot of the north looks. Arya- I haven't ever heard of this name or been able to find it anywhere, except that I do know a woman from India whose last name is Arya. I asked her if she knew what it meant, and she said she didn't. Ever since then, and especially since _A Clash of Kings_, it's come to suggest a kind of dark mystery to me. Littlefinger- Perhaps a play on words, like the phrase "He's got more sense in his little finger than you have in your whole body." Bran- Means "raven" in one of the Celtic languages- Welsh, I think. Someone brought it up on another board once. This could explain why Bran keeps seeing ravens. Myrcella, Cersei- These names are probably the least English-sounding names in Westeros. Possibly they've been influenced by my perception of the characters, but to my ears they do suggest something strange about the girl and woman who bear them. Lysa- Depending on how you pronounced it, could be "lie-sa." Deception? Sorry for babbling on, but I really love names, and I'm sorry someone didn't think of this topic before now! :).
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	May 8th 9:51 AM How about someone with a name like Roose Bolton, which I have extrapolated into "ruse" and "boltin'". What am I implying? This guy is sneaky and will turn against Robb. Then there is Walder Frey, which can be broken down into "there's a wall there keeping me out of the fray." Well, I'll admit that's a rather weak interpretation, but it seems to suit this man.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 9th 1:17 PM Oh, Keri, do not apologize! I loooved your hints. As I said above, the explanations were really helpful to me. "Bran" meaning "raven" - well, _that's_ obvious, is it not? The "Freys" - I liked your explication, Gary, but Frey has yet another sound to me. The german word "frei" means free, and in the middle ages it even was spelled "frey", and thus pronounced, too. The Freys are somewhat the Swiss of Westeros, they try to keep their noses out of everything, don't they? The explanation of Roose Bolton is pretty good. Can Bolton also be compared to "bold"? And, yes, the Targaryans seem to be elfish. Their violett eyes and silver hair imply this. I think Dany, from looks, character and everything was a complete counterpart to Drogo. From the name, too. A pity that Rhaegar died... I would have liked to know what a son of theirs would be like...
Keri Stevenson User ID: 9872353	May 10th 7:07 AM I have a, perhaps, somewhat simplistic explanation of Frey :), but here it is: they're in a fray constantly becuase there are so many of them it's ridiculous. I think there may be a certain point to abbreviating Dany's name, and it could be taken one of two ways: to make her sound a bit more 'masculine,' or to simplify it. After all, Daenerys would get a bit overwhelming if we saw it all the time. Drogo to me has a harder sound, a lot like "dog." Which, in some ways, he was :). I've brought this point up before, but the name "Varys" does sound an awful lot like the Targaryens'. Maybe it's meant to give him the same air of mystery and danger and 'otherness' that they have. Sam: A good, simple, strong name, perhaps the perfect counterpart to Jon. Jorah: This is really stretching it, but perhaps meant to sound a little bit like Judas? Thanks again for setting up this board, Min, so I'll have a place to babble :).
labor User ID: 8479113	May 10th 10:57 AM Wasn't Varys from the Free Cities, where they still speak some form of Valyrian? It would explain why his name sounds like that of Targaryens - they are of the same language origin.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 12th 4:38 AM Keri: You do not babble. And if you do, it's the kind of babble I like :-) Jorah and Judas... not bad, really. That would mean that he is to betray Dany. Do you think he will? Yes, labor, Varys told Ned he was from the Free Cities. And his name reminds a bit of "Valyrian", does it not? Targaryans and Valyian both seem to have lots of "a" and "y" vocals, that makes a connection between Varys and Targaryans or Valyrians possible.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 12th 4:46 AM As I just thought about Theon. We already talked about "Greyjoy". "Theon" is the greek word for "God".
Keri Stevenson User ID: 0185894	May 12th 7:19 AM Min: Thank you for the compliment. And maybe Theon's name is meant to be indicative of what he thinks he is :). I think Jorah will betray Dany, yes. At the moment, he seems the most likely candidate- close to her, half in love with her, may have lied about Rhaego, was in Varys's pay and so already half- betrayed her, etc. Here are a few other names: Robb: Robb is the only trueborn Stark child whose name is only one syllable (Bran's name is Brandon). This might be meant to convey a stolidity of character and a strength that the others don't have. A harsh, round sound. Jaime: The first King James of England was a weak man, obsessed with asserting the divine right of kings (he disbanded Parliament for a while). Jaime is not weak in the sense of physical power, but as far as the power-obsession goes... Tywin: This might be meant to rhyme with "lion," at least the way I pronounce it :). It also has the word "win" in it, more prosaically. Perhaps to suggest victory? Rickon: Resembles the words "wreck" and "reckless." And Rickon seems to be growing steadily more wild...
Min User ID: 9433023	May 12th 8:16 AM Jaime: Yes, parallels to James of England. Jaime also sounds even more weak (in character), like a person bound to pleasure, not thinking about others. I agree about Rickon. He seems to be very unsteady. A very young copy of - Theon ;-).
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	May 12th 8:45 AM I like some of these name associations I've been reading. Keri, with regard to Tywin, I suppose there are actually three possible outcomes of a battle: a loss, a win or a draw or tie. Perhaps Tywin is willing to settle for two of these outcomes: tie and win. Alright, that's a little wacky. On one of the other boards, I think it was RDS who associated the names of Sandor and Sansa with their "san" beginnings....which can be translated to mean "saint". Might this be a hint that they'll die together while engaged in a worthy cause?
Min User ID: 9433023	May 12th 9:58 AM Oh, a tragic death would really make sense to me. It would fit GRRM's kinds of plots... I know I will cry then (I already cried when Lady was killed - but not when Ned died. Strange, isn't it?)
Captain Dirjj User ID: 9621663	May 13th 0:25 AM I think of Tywin as Tyrant. Kinda simple huh? ab
Min User ID: 9433023	May 13th 3:36 AM So many suggestions for Tywin... and all make kinda sense :-)
Keri Stevenson User ID: 9872353	May 13th 7:02 AM Min: Please don't suggest that Rickon was influenced by Theon :). I'm betting strongly on him dying, in one way or another, by the end of _A Storm of Swords_, and I want his influence gone from the world :). Ser Gary: I do like that explanation of Tywin... doesn't sound any more wacky than my suggesting that the first syllable of "Lysa" has something to do with lies and deception. Loras: I really don't think that the first syllable of the name, in this case, has anything to do with "lore," or being clever or wise :). It might be meant to suggest "lord," or perhaps "laurel"- as laurel was used for the victor's crown in Greece, and he is seen as a victor, and his family's symbol is a flower. That's even more wacky :). Clegane: This has a heavy, ugly sound to me, and it almost looks like "clang." Hopefully, someday, the sound Gregor will make in spilling from the saddle :). Tyrion: The last syllables of his name look even more like "lion" than Tywin's do. On the other hand, it also looks more like "tyrant."
Emily User ID: 0087674	May 13th 7:03 AM Well, I see Robb's name as a straight-forward description of what he does - rob the Seven Kingdoms of half its land. Sansa - I have to disagree, Min, she may be well-educated but she has the least sense of any of the Starks, with the possible exception of her insane 4-year old brother Rickon. I also take a different view of Jon Snow: snow is blinding white and pure, not dark. I can never think of the Bastard of Bolton as 'Snow'. Catelyn - a very unsuitable name - she doesn't remind me of a cat but of a dog, devoted to its Master, Ned. Anything with 'joy' in it is incredibly unsuitable for dear Theon, or indeed any of that miserable bunch of Kraken-lovers (except Asha, of course). At least the name also contains Grey, though black might be more suitable.
Min User ID: 9433023	May 13th 8:30 AM Emily: Thank you so much for your description od Cat - I heartily agree :-) Tyrion is, I think, a greek name, too, like Theon, but I don't recall its meaning. I will look it up for you... (and I may be wrong - may it be that you don't _like_ Theon? :-))