The IOT members I have met were very nice. I'm not saying people aren't nice, strych. just the organisiations, as organisations are wont to be I'm saying that orders breed elitism, secrecy, counter-productivity, what have you. * CyberKaos HATES organised magick Orders are good for pointing beginners toward resources. If that's *all* they did, no problem. but by their nature they don't * Bhairava had kinda hoped that ZCluster would serve as a good network for 'adversaries'... but that seems not to be in the cards. 'adversaries'? Chaotes are usually rather agreeable. Yeah... people who don't buy into the 'mystique', look for substance. People who don't think that getting books published and hording information and such are worthwhile ends. Magick for magick's sake, y'know. People who oppose the orders and the organizational imperative and the like. There are a few of us around. :=} You don't see the zcluster as a place where such people congregate? Nope. You are missing something. Nah, I'm not. There are increasingly a smaller proportion of such people there. Increasingly? Yes. Where are they going? away from people like Tzimon here, prolly... I dunno... but I know people like Martin Knudsen and Antero Alli are leaving, and the newer people are increasingly those impressed with the 'glamor' end of things. LOL antero ali was only there for about a week, tho... Just because everyone isn't spending their time poo poo'ing the status quo doesn't mean that they aren't productive chaos magicians. 'glamor' ... like sequins? :) A couple weeks. He could get back on the list now, but he's not planning on it soon. "Too much about personalities, not enough about magick." Like image and appearance. :=} That's the point, isn't it? LOL Talking about magick what we do. er, isnt. Eh? Confused... We perform it. We don't talk about it. The Z-Cluster isn't a "group of chaos magickians" anyway. well, when you come down to it, it is pretty much Why don't we talk about it? Not by Marik's definition. Why not? Post about it! I have. that's what most of it's reisdent's ARE You have stopped? Yep. There you have it. Got zero feedback from the list. The people who want to talk about it mostly use private e-mail now, I guess. most Zees are chaos magicians, whatever anyone's opinion on it might be ZCluster is based around something called the "12 Principles of Chaos", strych... * Bhairava is a purist at heart, I suppose. Magick, to me, isn't about groups and the like, and chaos isn't about creating yet more structure. Are you saying the people aren't the right sort for conversing about magick? Or that the zee cluster is a failed experiment? What do you want from the list or the channel? Neither. I guess I'm just agreeing with E.E. Rehmus, I guess... "a genuine magus is as rare as cocks' eggs." Possibly. I would insert the word "chaos" before magus, though. personally, i found the cluster to be extremely useful to me in learning more about varying magickal techniques, but things do seem to be going round in circles now Something that will likely never happen :=} I say everyone is a chaos mage. and if i have to read one more of Anubis's fucking pretentions i am going to scream hehehehe anubis is a hoot. but what precisesly is a 'genuine chaos magus' when you come down to it? We can use the list any way we want. You can say that, Someone working toward a vision of Pandaemonaeon... utter freedom and mutability... Even if we aren 't all working toward it, we are all heading toward it. Who isn't? You think it's inevitable? Probably. but then, many chaotes THINK that is what they are working towards, even if everyone else thinks they are actually doing something completely different Heh... well, that's pretty much opposed to it's principles... nothing is inevitable. :=} Hence probably. hahah I think it's a situation that needs to be created. We are in a time of increasing restriction. We are amidst great chaos. The freedom and mutability part, not so much. people like restriction that's people Then I think... well, is someone who joins an order of some sort freer than they were before they joined it? even people who want to defeat restiction like havng it there so they have something to aim to defeat That's people right now... not always so, and it needn't always be that way. LOL if we ever have a situationof no restiction My recent post about famous zees... was a reaction to the name dropping on the list lately. most people will probably be unbearable bored and deppressed cos they won't know what to do Yeah, strych, figured :=} and how strange to me it was that people were impressed by these names. it was most amusing Kat: Not Chaos Magicians, tho :=} i still think Lucy Lawless should be... Tzi: wanna bet? Kat: What good would it do? Nothing would have any value if it happened! :=} at least many people who call themselves chaos magicians at any rate LOL Tzi Heh... well, yeah, you do have that. Then again, it's questionable whether any sort of individual identity could exist at that point anyhow. that's the main prblem *I* have with the concept i must admit same thing i have against nirvana or union with the godhead I am living amidst the Chaos. The path I take is one of many paths I create. It is the same for everyone. I feel that knowing you are doing it makes you a bit different from the average bloke. They are doing it too, though. * Bhairava kinda sees it as a big, roiling pot o' possibilities. Kat: Think about it, though... That is being a Chaos Magickian, but I have not mentioned freedom or some Eschaton. Instantaneous infinite transmission of information... total ecstacy... complete change constantly. i LIKE my ego and sense of self Individuality/nonindividuality would be just another state of flux. As they can be now. that's another possibiilty Heck, I like being me OK too, Kat. i must admit, if i had the opentunity to enter a state of true pandemonium, i'd be hard pressed to refuse STrych: What number am I thinking of? :=} 12? 333? Nope. 63. :=} Fuck! We don't have that state right now, or we wouldn't be bothering with IRC. I think the Net represents a step in the evolution of that state. You want instantaneous, infinite access to all information? Really? The Net has had the effect of breaking down a LOT of the form that existed previously. Can I be a chaote and not want that? I don't want that. How much more ordered could things get? Why wouldn't you want that? Everything is ONE. A singularity is the most stable ordered thing of all. Nope. The concept of One/many would be a flux, just like everything else. Meaningless of iotself. We cry IO Chaos! Do we mean chaos? It's NOT a singularity, and not a plurality. Those states become meaningless; they both represent a structure. Do we need to define terms? Ok. but you can't know that, that's another problem with the whole pandemonium concept it is, by definition, unkowable unpredictable and DAMN scary :) The particulars of the state, it's ramifications on any given individual, are unknowable. So i could not have infinite instantaneous access while having instantaneous infinite access? Yep. I could be me, or be you, or be both, and neither? and the perspective of the individual are that from which we approach it You would BE whatever the information is, in a manner of speaking. Right. Why can't I be that right now? What is the pandemonium concept? Not necessarily, Kat. It's all in my perspective. Because such a state doesn't currently exist in any maintainable form. we are, usually, in the state of being individuals Nah, you couldn't even guess my number. Nor could I probably guess yours. and it is from that state that we usually approach it No, but I could decide a second later that I did guess it, and thats reality for me. It works fairly well. once pandemonion is approached, we are in a completely differnt area of being and percieving Kat, usually, but not always. The moment of gnosis is a bypass of individual limitation. that is true That's a semantic game, strych... If that isn't magick, then what could we possibly do to bring about this great chaos that you speak of? What could we do as individuals? Which of my rituals really do something? Isn't sigilisation the same? Communicate, remove accesses to whatever info can be removed, break down structures that create the boundaries on at least the social level... These can be done in the mundane. What of magick? Act as far outside the system as is practicable without creating any single necessary alternative to it... but in a state of gnosis we aren't really in a position to debate shit like this... one of the reasons i play with acid... as close as you can get to a state of gnosis while in decent conversation :) All of this magick takes place on the mundane, strych. Same as drawing a siggil and wanking over it, really. :=} True, kat. Yes magick acts upon the mundane. Sorta like the 'boddhisattva' ideal. :=} But I couldn't guess your number. How can I change the mundane? I couldn't even change your number? Magick takes place within the mundane world, I think. The distinction is an artificial one. of course, it could already be said that we live in a constante state of flux: any action we make could potentially change the world... admittedly it doesnt, but it might eventually There are some things you CAN do. Those are the points of weakness in the crystallization of order. Spoken like a true setian :) For example, what things can we do? :-P Strych You start with those things and use them as a springboard to expand. Well, information liberation. is a basic one. Doing things to realign people's sense of reality. Hell, cast sigils... whatever. You're more aware of your own capabilities than I am, for now. :=} Lets get concrete. An example of magickal information liberation. OK, something I personally did? Sure. You can't use this as an example :) Heh... OK :=} Yup hahahahaha I got information that was being kept secret by the IOT (magickal rituals., techniques, etc.) out of the IOT and into a much more public arena. Vortex Ritual, Ouranos Rite, buncha stuff. You did this in the mundane. he's right I've also disseminated information I've obtained as an insider in a major US industry. Good, helpful, but mundane. Yep. But it's still a magickal act toward breaking down of structure and restriction. but then, ANYTHING could be taken as a magickal act... picking my nose for example, to echo your earlier bit of cynicism, Tzi anything that brings about ANY sort of change Why call it magick? I mean, ya draw a sigil with mundane ink on a mundane piece of paper... but it's still a *magickal* act. What do you draw your sigils on? What does magick act upon? Yes, but you aren't manipulating the world first hand with a sigil. There is no "mundane" vs. "magickal". I'm manipulating the world first hand by making secret information non-secret. That is a MAJOR manipulation, strych. Just think of what would happen if, say, someone did that with secret information from the CIA. Wouldn't it change the world? Alright, Tzi, but if you drew a sigil to obtain the information, and the next day it was disseminated... isn't that different? It would be useful if you didn't have access to that information. If your ultimate goal is only the dissemination of the information, yes. That's not the ultimate goal, though. I am not disagreeing that any methods you use are useful. magick, however, seems to be an emminently unprovable medium or at least anyone who could prove it ain't telling Understood. The release of the information is a means to an end... it is equivalent with the act of drawing a sigil, not with the fulfillment of the sigil's intent. Are you saying that physically publishing information is a sigil in itself toward a greater goal? Yes... in this case, publishing it via the means least likely to result in any restriction at all. ANyhow, though, I have gotta get going. I'll be back tomorrow night if ya want to continue... or maybe someone will want to fling this on the list and see what happens. :=} More on indirect manipulation, through servitors, sigils, gaining intelligence through evocation... Ok. Later! *** Bhairava has quit IRC (God is a FishStick) We should publish to the zee page and have a call for discussion. god is a FISHSTICK!?!? That was definitely interesting I just think that instead of bitching about how things aren't how we want them, we discuss them. Yes The magickal=mundane thing sounds really CoS. I don't disagree; i think the line is an artificial one. I just want to know why we all do invocations and evocations when we ought to be stealing books, then. crowley was, i believe, one of the first people who theorised that any act that changed someting at someone's will (e.g. getting a glass of water to quench thirst) was an act of magick strych - it's easier, adn you're less likely to get caught :) Is it as effective? it seems to be effective at least to a certain extent but it's DAMN hard to prove When I get up in the morning, I don't sit in my car and wish it would start without trying the key first :) I doubt I could wish myself to work with it. but then, as they say: Fake It Til You Make It Somehow I think I could get a job with it, or something. What's the difference? if i know... i'd be a millionaire by now Heh, you don't have to know about it to write a book about it :) i didn't mean like that i know :) it is very possible that there are people who can make magick work perfectly ALL the time but they aren't going to let anyone know they can and they aren't going to get involved with other magicians in forums like this I don't know if society needs a push toward entropy. I think we are going that way anyway. but there is also a considerable resistance to entropy I look at chaos magick as a way of dealing with it. When it gets really bad, I'll have a head start. and the fact that entropy is approaching is the very thing that will spawn repression and order when it gets really bad someones going to kill most people I don't know that society is a significant consideration in the grand scheme of things anyway.