{Click on the above image to go to the Forum}
Here's a couple of messages I happened to read that appealed to me ... around # 57,845 - assuming the Forum is still in existence when anyone reads this ...
{Click on the above image to go to the Forum}
Hi X--you said "People who have a spiritual belief system will always be the defenders of a leader or guru and claim what wonderful things they do." I have a spiritual belief system--my "take" on life (I think everyone does--even if it's atheism)and I don't have a guru or specific leader. I read from many sources and find many ideas valuable---oh, I take that back. I do hold Jesus as a sort of guru...and Buddha. I meant that I don't have a "live" person that I follow and "defend"--(I don't have a strong opinion about Deepak, tho I like his work--what I said to you earlier about him wasn't a defense as much as an observation that he seems to be pretty benign)...nor am I part of any church that pushes it's dogma to "defend" it's beliefs. I feel that the relationship with God was meant to be a personal one. So I don't see myself as a mindless follower :-) which is what it seems to me you feel followers of a faith are?
This quote from Dick--�It is much easier, for some people, to face life by deceiving themselves into thinking they alone are in charge of what is real and what is true� is one that I feel can be turned around and applied to any belief system--even that of the "rational" man. And this quote "In religion, on the other hand, you can surround yourself only with sycophants who demand to be deluded and deceived because it makes them feel so healthy and happy.� such a cynical approach to religion? :-) If you don't mind my asking...what do you think Life is about? Why are we here? Where are we going? What's the point? Certainly not all religious people feel healthy and happy! I said that I need a perspective that brings me peace to face the world's problems effectively--and that's true to an extent...but it's more than that. I've had a lifelong yearning to understand the "big" questions...you may see that as silly or unrealistic or as setting me up to be pacified by some feel good philosophy :-) But in my own life, I have experienced enough extraordinariness to believe that there is more than a logical way to approach everything. I think that choosing to believe in what I have sensed all along (faith) is necessary to grow and learn about spiritual matters---you can come to a certain point through reason, but at some point, you have to let go into something bigger than yourself...I do keep in mind that it's a matter of balance in holding fast to ideas and principles and being blind to new ideas---a tricky thing :-)But again, this applies to all sorts of belief systems.
As to whether or not Deepak is a fraud--I think we've been all over that one ;-) I am not blindly defending him and saying he can do no wrong. I'm not really interested in his personal life--we've had that talk before also--about walking the talk. It's most helpful if someone does embody what they say, but, for me at least, it isn't required that they do so for me to see worth in some or even all of what they say. Then again, somone who embodies characteristics that I value, typically will have my ear at first--though I might not like what they have to say. Works both ways :-)
I appreciate your concern for the world, I really do. I just don't agree with your perspective...which brings to mind another question for you--how do you think different "mentalities" can come together peacefully?
Take care! Y
I read the Forum contributions and then wandered down to the park to watch the ducks ... here's a little of what I scribbled down while I was there ...
Here are a few passing thoughts of mine that have been sparked by recent discussions and events. Make of them what you will. I don't mind. I'm not attached to the result. Most of them were scribbled down as I sat watching some ducks on a pond at a park near my place. If you find them useful or illuminating, then I wish you the best of luck. If you find they contain all the answers to all the questions you've always been troubled by, then simply send all your cash to me c/o Dandenong Psychiatric Centre, 7 Mason St Dandenong, Australia, 3175. All monies recieved will go to a very worthy cause.
Actually, I can hardly claim credit or 'ownership' of these thoughts. I simply sat down and scribbled the first thing that popped into my head (if indeed consciousness is confined to the head - I personally doubt that it is ...) So, any credit or blame should be addressed to the great 'whatever' that I plug into whenever I empty my mind of all the personal nonsense that has been accumulating there over the course of my existence. I think Jack Schwarz calls this 'universal paraconscious mind individualised within each of us'.
I haven't responded a lot to the current 'discussions' and there are a couple of reasons for this ... firstly, I know JUST where the skeptics are coming from. I was there less than two years ago and I absolutely know that nobody's mere WORDS would have ever persuaded me to budge one millimetre from that position. I was convinced my way of seeing things was right and that anyone into 'all this spiritual stuff' is really kidding themselves.
And it's perfectly okay to disgree ... it's when that disagreement comes with negative emotional energy attached to it that you cause yourself grief. Most emotional pain is self-inflicted and I have enormous compassion for it because I used to inflict such pain on myself for a very long time without realising it and always blaming others as the cause of my anger or irritation.
As for all this talk as to whose spiritual path is 'right' ... it's entirely wasted energy ... better devoted to prayer or contemplation if you genuinely believe someone is on the wrong tram and/or being led 'astray' ... to attack their position and attach negative emotional energy to that attack is a sign of a rampant ego. And I can only say such things and have compassion for anyone doing them because I have experienced this personally. To pray for someone EVEN if they are 'driving you nuts' is a good sign you're making progress. To respond to attack with compassion & forgiveness rather than indulge the impulse to counter-attack is also a very good sign.
{Could include that quote from Conversations with God - "Be watchful, therefore, of the choices of others, but not judgemental. Know that their choice is perfect for them at this moment now - yet stand ready to assist them should the moment come when they seek a newer choice, a different choice - a higher choice ... Allow each soul to walk its path."}
Nobody would dare claim that nonjudgement is easy. It's not. If it were, then the world would be full of enlightened beings and we wouldn't be having this discussion. My current understanding of nonjudgement (and this may evolve at any moment, without warning) is to consciously endeavour not to direct any negative emotional energy towards those whose actions you may happen to disapprove of. Most people would say this is a crazy idea because they have been conditioned to automatically generate and direct anger or hostility or animosity towards those people whose behaviour or beliefs don't fit neatly into their 'approved' pigeon-hole they have constructed in their minds. (Let me know if this is making any sense)
It's perfectly okay to have opinions, so long as we don't take them too seriously and become overly attached to them and invest inordinate amounts of emotional energy INTO them. It's only then that we are pre-disposed to directing hostility or animosity (or derision etc etc) towards those whose views don't neatly co-incide with our own. This is a surefire recipe for causing your SELF continual grief of one kind or another because by their very nature opinions are coloured by personal experience and a whole host of influences and thus there is a limitless spectrum of them and thus only a relatively small percentage of the human race will share your world-view closely enough to not generate conflict.
As my old Uncle Cyrus used to be awfully fond of saying, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?"
And there is one dead certainty in this life, you is NOT going to be happy as LONG as you are creating and directing negative emotional energy towards those you perceive as being 'wrong'. And yes, I write these words to remind myself of these things - I'm no saint JUST yet!
Just excuse me for a sec while I toss some more bread to the ducks. Do ducks eat bread? and if so, is it any good for them?
Do we really need opinions? What purpose do they serve when you really get DOWN to it? Most of our fellow creatures seem to do quite nicely without opinions. They seem to live harmoniously without being burdened with an opinion-making consciousness.
Who was it that said something along the lines of "Man is the only creature who blushes ... or needs to."
I asked some of the ducks what they thought about some of the recent events here at the forum. One of them, who looked a bit brighter than your average duck, said that he (or it might have been a she - I'm no expert on such matters - probably lucky I'm not a duck) was reminded of his (or her) favourite Shakespearian work. Namely, Much Ado about Nothing. I smiled and nodded my agreement and wished him (or her) a beautiful day.
I also smiled as I recollected a quote I once read, which was attributed to Buddha:
At the risk of getting serious for one second, what does it matter? At the end of the day, each of us is (roughly) in control of our own indviudual consciousness and each moment we face a choice. We can choose to fill that consciousness with thoughts of condemnation & criticism & disdain & animosity OR we can choose to fill it with thoughts of forgiveness & compassion & equanimity & gratitude & loving-kindness and all the other 'good stuff' that has been available for eons. And only ONE choice has any hope of creating genuine satisfaction & serenity ... and I suspect that each of us deeep down knows this ... so it is a valid question as to why do we keep making the 'other' choice ... :)
{Today's mantra is recommended by nine-out-of-ten Daily Lamas: "Bumping. Bumping. Bumping. I am always bumping into things." For best results it should be chanted for five minutes before and after each meal and see your doctor if pain persists}
I mean 'spiritual growth' is dead simple on paper. The trouble is most of us don't live on paper. I mean anyone can write down the following list and attach it to their fridge or some other place they are likely to frequent daily:
[
I resolve not to get impatient or irritated or annoyed or anything like that
[
I resolve to never take it personally
[
I resolve never to utter a harsh or unkind word
[
I resolve to always maintain a sense of good humour and perspective
[
I resolve to cultivate boundless compassion for all beings
[
I reolve to devote my spare time & energy to acts of benevolence & charity
[
I resolve to laugh in the face of madness (now how did that one slip in?)
[
I resolve never to indulge even a momentary impulse to counter-attack
[
I resolve to respond to each unkindness with forgiveness & compassion
[
I resolve to never lose my sense of awe and wonder at the unfathomable
[
I resolve to immerse myself in this mystery on a daily
[
I resolve to use meditation & contemplation & other tried and
[
I resolve to affirm & contemplate these resolutions on a daily basis
[
I resolve to remain mindful of these resolutions even in the face of the
However, that's not to say it's pointless compiling a list which you may doubt your capacity to stick to. Just contemplating such a list afford us (well, me anyway - I don't presume to speak for anyone else's experience) a tantalising glimpse of the dormant potential that resides inside each and every being we encouter, regardless of how lost or confused or obnoxious or abrasive they may appear to be in any given moment. {Just out of interest, it is my personal belief that we each have at least an inkling of this dormant potential and 'the way things could be' even if it is just a vague inkling and the current amount of unrest and distress in this world is an indication that we have this inkling that there JUST has to be a LOT more to it than what we are currently experiencing but we may be unsure as to how to really tune into that 'something more'. Of course, I could be wrong - stranger things have happened.}
Actually, while I was compiling that list off the top-o-my-head, I was reminded of the Bodhisattva Vow which blew me away the first time I encountered it. {Include link? - or let them find it themselves, they're not totally useless
That's probably enough of me for the time being. I'll just go and listen to a couple of CD's I happened to receive today from some kind soul.
People with opinions just go around bothering one another
[
I resolve not to get angry anymore
and never to harbour a harsh or unkind thought
those who would for whatever reason seek to attack me
mystery of this thing we call 'life'
if not an hourly basis
proven methods to sweep out all the opinions and preferences
and all other similar nonsense which is just cluttering up my
consciousness and occupying valuable space & energy
until there is no need as they have become an inextricably
interwoven aspect of who I am
most extreme provocation or circumstance
}
A few further thoughts a couple of days later ...
A rampant ego is not necessarily a 'bad' thing, it is merely a phase we each go through. Just like infancy and adolescence. The ego likes to hold onto things. Things like opinions & judgements & preferences & beliefs. Things which actually have no solid basis in reality. Moreover, the ego feels a need to defend these things as though they are precious gems. As the old saying goes, the best form of defence is attack.
Let me quote a little bit of James Twyman: ': Thoughts are bricks. They are what seem to give the ego it�s reality. We take this endless stream of thoughts about who we think we are and what we think the world is and each one of those thoughts is like a brick that we place down in front of us. We begin at a very early age to build these thought walls around us and we say that everything inside this wall is me and everything outside this wall is who I am not. We begin to create the illusion. The awakening is simply that my ego is nothing but a collection of thoughts. Therefore, it has no reality at all. '
So a rampant ego is not in itself 'bad', but this defence and attack keeps the mind so busy and on edge that the experience of true tranquility and good will to all beings is highly unlikely to come along too often.
It has been my experience that it is infinitely easier for the mind to SOAR when it's not SORE. Forgive the awful pun but what I am speaking of is a mind which has been cleared of all the useless clutter like opinions and judgements etc ... I mean just for a second try to envisage what your mind WOULD be like if it contained no opnions ...
As soon as a discussion becomes personal or abusive or derogatory then it ceases to be a 'discussion' and it has moved into the area of interpersonal ego warfare and both parties are being damaged as long as they remain in this territory.
With regard to opinions, I see meditation as the process of observing & investigating each of them and eventually discovering they have no solid basis whatsoever ... and then gently letting them go ...
See more posts at fourm ... around 57904 ... :)
I was tempted to post something like 'I feel very SAD for you. People here are telling you your true nature and true potential is that you absolutely CAN love everyone you encounter and you keep saying "That's nonsense. How can anyone belive that?" ... and I know JUST what that feels like ... I was there less than two years ago ... so I genuinely shall pray for you {as maybe my OWN glimpse was afforded me by someone else's prayer - possibly a complete 'stranger' - that is entirely possible after encountering the Bodhisattva Vow ...
}
And these are not pie-in-the-sky ideals as some would say ... Buddha & many others are sayin g that NO MATTER what anyone does TO you and no matter what their attitude towards you is, it IS still possible to respond with compassion and love. For example, take abuse, now nobody wants to be abused and most people would respond to abuse with at least resentment if not hatred, However, the possibility exists to respond to abuse with compassion. It requires you to realise that a person only abuses others if they are not happy WITHIN themselves and genuine love is simply the desire for the other person to be happy. So you wish them to be happy NOT just so they will stop abusing you but so they will stop abusing themselves. Ultimately, abusing others is really abusing yourself. For an example of this possibility made real - try Christ's words on the Cross. To be tortured to death for 'no good reason' and then to say 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.' That's the image i try to call to mind if I'm having trouble forgiving something ...
On the subject of vows - such as "I vow to cultivate boundless compassion for all beings" - it's like any goal in life. You don't say, "I want to be a pilot" and expect that two weeks later you'll be flying jumbos ... :)
Yes, to affirm such vows is only 'ridiculous' if your belief about human nature is that a certain amount of anger & jealousy & animosity is inevitable and that thoughts of transforming those things into love are pipe-dreams ...
A few more thoughts ...
It IS possible ... and nobody is MORE amazed than me ... things and people that used to irritate and indeed infuriate me (and I do mean FURY) no longer do ... and it is NOT a case of suppressing or repressing impulses yet i can see how a skeptic or someone who has not experienced such a metamorphosis might think that way ...
Ok, my INITIAL transformation or glimpse seemed NOT to be my own conscious effort ... but since that time, I've had to work my butt off and live every moment as mindfully as I can ... but the rewards are amazing ... and once you have experienced it ... you really do want to share it with anyone who's even remotely open to it because it is a FUNDAMENTALLY bettter experience than the everyday conventional ...
Like any worthwhile goal ... and CAN you really come up with a more worthwhile pursuit ...
It's a perfectly legitimate question to ask what is really fuelling any 'discussion'. Is it a genuine desire to seek the truth or to find the best solution or reslution to a problem. Or is it the ego seeking to defend its ground. It's a question that is worthy of being asked often. I endeavour to ask it of myself on a regular basis. Because the ego defends its territory with a variety of mechanisms which tend not to foster harmony & mutual respect.
Some thoughts on thoughts ...
Thoughts are amazing things when you really look at them. I mean what exactly is a thought? Why do we have them? Some thoughts are pleasant. Some thoughts are neutral. Some thoughts are unsettling. Some thoughts are inspiring. Some thoughts are mood-altering. Why is this so? Why do we have some measure of control over our thoughts and yet we continue to think things which are far from wonderful and very unlikely to make us happy. Why does meditation work? Why do skilled practitioners develop a very high degree of control over the quality and content and frequency of their thoughts? Why do we sometimes get stuck repeatedly thinking thoughts why do us no good at all? How do we get unstuck? ...
Just a few thoughts ...
That's what any half-decent spiritual path or technique or practice is all about. Turning around very unrewarding and unloving habits like anger and blame and jealousy and rage and judging and name-calling. Al of which are huge barriers to experiencing genuine love. That's what it's really all about. I wouldn't lie to you.
I sincerely wish you all the best. Peace~Love~Happiness. Namaste.
So the aim of any spiritual path is to help make you more a wise, compassionate & loving being. And at the end of the day, can you think of a more worthwhile aim to have ...
On the criticism that these are just 'pretty thoughts' ... I'd agree ... as LONG as they stay JUST thoughts and aren't acted on ... HOWEVER, even that is a step up from filling your head with dark and crippling thoughts about reality and your place in it ... and if the pretty thoughts remain long enough then there's every chance they will become actions ... even the decision NOT to 'take it personally' and to 'cultivate boundless compassion for all beings' is an ACTION ...
I gotta be honest with you all ... I often have a little chuckle to myself when meditating on this issue (the whole question of discussion versus heated debate) ... just pause for a moment and reflect on all the emotional energy that has been expended throughout human history on trying to 'prove a point' or persuade a fellow being to 'see things my way' ... and what do you reckon the success rate would be ... personally, I'd have to say it would be miniscule ... yet we KEEP on doing it ...
... I supppose the first step in anything is the realisation of what you're doing and an impartial evaluation of whether it's doing you any good ... part of the 'waking up' process is to step back a bit and realise hey, I have a choice here ... I can expend my precious energy this way ... I can choose to allow a disagreement or difference of opinion to colour the way I think and feel towards a fellow traveler ... or I can seek a better choice ... while acknowledging that long-standing habits might take a while to turn around ...
