Subject: 
        Re: [evol-psych] The Trouble With Self-Esteem
   Date: 
        Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:40:51 EST
   From: 
        "Lynn O'Connor"
     



In a message dated 2/6/02 12:04:11 AM, [email protected] writes:

<< Throughout the evolutionary 
history of man and primate, social status was a reproductive 
advantage to males, but often required risky aggressive behavior 
and violent retaliation to maintain it - the social status competition 
is not a positive-sum game, so maintaining status means being 
able to defeat or deter challenges to it.  "High self-esteem" is a 
high opinion of oneself, leading to risk-taking and aggressive 
behavior because of confidence in one's abilities to succeed in the 
face of adversity.  >>

I'm not so sure of these absolute statements, in regard to great apes 
including man.  I believe Paul Gilbert and others have discussed the 
importance of attraction, social attractiveness, rather than overt "I'm ready 
to fight" aggression as a road to high status.

<< One would expect high self-esteem to be correlated with higher 
social status, and/or with the pursuit of a "risk-taking" social 
strategy independent of one's status.  One would thus expect it to 
be tied into aggression, and into retaliation against perceived 
threats to one's status - these are the bread and water of a "high-
status male" approach to life.  >>

Again, this seems to be based on the competitive (as opposed to cooperative) 
perspective on life, and therefore may miss the "whole" picture for ours 
along with other highly social species.  The ability to attract others, to 
create or maintain a cooperative environment may be central in the 
maintenance of high status.  de Waal will certainly be able to speak with 
authority on this issue in regards to chimpanzees and bonobos, (i.e. I would 
like to know what he thinks here). I can say that in my interviews with 
zookeepers very familiar with their chimpanzee groups, I have heard on 
several occassions of the alpha male maintaining his alpha position only 
through the support of high ranking females. In one instance I heard about 
the alpha "I don't think he even really knows how to fight, that's not what 
he does.."  Now I know this is very anecdotal so perhaps not worth much.  But 
it makes me wonder. In addition, I believe I read McGuire speak to this 
issue, of high status in males being acheived and maintained by female 
support, in some species of monkey.  And I don't think in general that female 
support is acheived through frequent expression of aggression. 

In our species, the aggressive high risk-taking personality is by no means 
necessarily the high status person.  Perhaps we shouldn't assume that "high 
status" and "high self-esteem", particularly as Baumeister seems to view 
self-esteem, are equivalent.  perhaps we have two categories of people who 
would measure high on the Rosenberg and the Coopersmith, one group acheiving 
high status and the other not. 

Just some questions here.

Lynn

Lynn O'Connor, Ph.D.
The Wright Institute
2728 Durant Avenue
Berkeley CA 94704
phone: (510) 841-9230
          (415) 821-4760
E mail: [email protected]