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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Orson Scott Card

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Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 3rd 4:26 PM
Wanna talk about Card? Ender, colombus, and Alvin Maker? the creater of some of the best fantasy and science fiction out there, as well as some of the worst? a man with extreamly high IQ, and extreamly stupid Mormonesque worldviews?

Carol
User ID: 9405543 Oct 3rd 4:53 PM
I just got Ender's Shadow. I liked the rest of the Ender books except for the very last one. I liked some of the Alvin Maker stuff, but lost in somewhere in the middle.

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 4th 2:48 AM
How's Ender's Shadow? Ender's Game is one of my favorite books, but after the entire fiasco of the short story in 'Far Horizons', I'm not gonna buy it in hardback, I think

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 4th 12:44 PM
I also liked Ender's Game but thought it went downhill from there. It seems to me like OSC has gotten fixed on the whole concept of genocide, when it can be justified, when it can't, and the moral consequences. The subject appears in the Alvin Maker series, the Ender Wiggin series, and in Treason, one of his earlier books that I really like. I feel like he's hitting us over the head with the repetition and I've sort of bailed on him as a consequence.

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 4th 3:27 PM
I love his writing, but the guy's philosophy scares me. For real. He kinde'believes in christian superiority in a way that I'm not comfortable with

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Oct 4th 11:03 PM
I am a fan of Orson Scott Card and in fact recently travelled to San Diego for his signing of his new book Ender's Shadow.

Some people only like Ender's Game in the "Ender quartet". Others like all four. OSC said he felt Ender's Game was more traditional science fiction, but that the first sequel, Speaker For the Dead was anthropological science fiction, and that the next two (originally one book) were metaphysical. I guess if you do not like anthropology or metaphysics, you would not like those books. Personally, I liked all four. However, just as AGOT is my favorite fantasy novel of all time, Ender's Game is my favorite science fiction novel of all time.

Ender's Shadow(ES) continues very much in the vein of Ender's Game (EG), rather than being like any of its previous sequels. It is even better in many ways, however, simply because OSC is more mature now than 15 years ago when he wrote EG. This novel deals philosophically with issues of genetic engineering and altruism.

ES is a parallel novel, a concept that I feel worked out very well. We see things from Bean's point of view, not Ender's. However, only about 15 percent of the book is events which have already been told from Ender's point of view. The rest is new material about Bean's life. I think the GRRM almost, but not quite, writes parallel novels. He keeps switching POV, but he never has two different characters tell the same event. I feel the fact that 15 percent of ES or so was a retelling of parts of EG from Bean's point of view was quite effective. It is fascinating how some of the characters and motivations get switched around entirely. Its a brilliant book.

Omer, I should like to address your fear of OSC. When I was in San Diego, my friend Paige and I got to talk with him privately. She asked him if he felt Mormonism came through in his books. He said something like "No, I do not proselytize for the Mormon religion, and I don't feel that their overt religious teachings are in my work". I would like to ask you this. If you did not know OSC was a Mormon, how would you even know he was a Christian???? Is if fair to judge him on his religion, his "private life". To me, thats what appears to be happening when you say you are afraid of him since he believes in Christian superiority. But let me give you a chance to answer. Besides I have read only about 23 of his 30 or so works. Where is it, specifically, that he evinces a belief in what you call Christian superiority??? It has already been pointed out that he is so very anti Xenocide, and anti prejudice of any sort in fact. So, what is scary about OSC?

I am very glad you brought up this topic, Omer. Its one I really like to discuss and debate.

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 5th 10:47 AM
Linda - so you liked Ender's shadow? Is it worth my money buying it in hardcover? I LOVE Ender's Game, and I liked Speaker for the Dead alot, but I really didn't like the next two, in which NOTHING HAPPENS.

Well, I got Orson Scott Card's beliefs from Pastwatch, and from an email he had sent me about it. ( and maybe for a few parts in Ender's Game and Speaker for the dead in which he speaks badly of jews... but never mind that). In PASTWATCH, anyway, christianity wins and the nativ ebelieves lose, despite monsterities done by the name of chrisitainity. For further ellaboration on that point: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/1105/hpmonographs.html

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Oct 5th 8:32 PM
Omer, thats very interesting. Pastwatch is one of his books that I have not read. Do people convert freely? I mean, if its not coerced, then I could not see it as evil. Would it be evil if I choose to convert to Judaism? Should a rabbi refuse to speak to me? Well, just wondering.

I was curious to hear about where OSC speaks badly of Jews in Speaker for the Dead, since I don't recall it. Some Ender's Game references are coming back to me. The Battle School boys called a guy "Rose the Nose" (it was battle school and the nose is not the n word, but I am not the arbitrator of what names are unmentionable for any purpose) He also said something like "all the main generals on earth were Jewish", which I sort of took as a tribute to the brilliance of Jewish people, but apparently some of those generals could be ruthless at times. I don't know, my memory is not specific. Was that the "speaking badly of Jews" part, or am I remembering it wrong?

You could get Ender's Shadow in hardcover from some of the online services. Last time I looked it was 50 percent off at Amazon.com. I would not say, overall, that ES is as good as EG, nothing could be. However, it is in the same vein and I am 100 percent sure you will like it much better than the other three sequels, which were in an entirely different vein. Also, I thought there were several whole chapters in ES that were as good as any chapter in EG. (Well, except the last, since ES has no overwhelming surprise in it....but we certainly find out some very interesting things.)

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 6th 11:16 AM
Linda - they're shown technology as proof for the superiority of christianity. If I go to someone who doesn't know anything about technology, show him a gun and what a gun can do, and then tell him 'this is a sign my god is true', I am doing something that's wrong.

Also I oppose missionairies, cause I think they oftem prey on the weak.

I like the approach of judaism in that sense. Make people chose your way by being the best, by setting an example.

Linda - I was refering to the scenes of Rose, and the scenes about the generals which seemed to show some contempt ( notice how ALL the generals are jewish but NONE of the kids are...), and in Speaker I think there was a scene about a Rabbi... it's been a while... these are all small things, but they creat a feeling.

I KNOW I'll buy Ender's Shadow... I'll se ehow much it costs on Amazon before I decide if it's gonna be a hardcover sale.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 6th 11:26 AM
Omer;

I haven't read the relevant books you talk about here, so I'm a little loath to pop in. But...

Isn't this a plausible approach for a missionary? (showing the superior technology to prove one gods superiority, I mean)

Certainly, it is a stupid world view, but OSC might not have meant to write this as 'the TRVTH in RL', but 'this is how the missionaries think, and I'm not necessarily suggesting that I personally agree with that'.

After all, it is not unheard of to write about things that go diametrically against ones own world view, in order to create an interesting perspective. I.e. - 'the world isn't fair'. Or something.

But, as I said, I haven't read the books, and I might have gotten the context it was said in, etc., all wrong.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 6th 11:42 AM
Omer, I actually thought the Jewish General thing in Ender's Game was a tremendous compliment to the success of the Israeli military. A touch of humor, but still a compliment. I didn't detect even a hint of contempt. I mean, a fundamental premise of Ender's game is that humanity has focused its resources on the military. One would expect to find the best and brightest in the military and, lo and behold, the generals are all jewish. How is that anti-semitic? If anything, its pro-semitic.

As for the Christian themes, I interpreted Card as agreeing with your position -- that it was wrong to claim technology as being associated with a particular diety. But I suppose I might have misinterpreted.

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Oct 6th 9:57 PM
Omer: I have not read Pastwatch, so I will not disagree with what you said. I did comment before that I thought all the generals being Jewish was a complement to them. You said all the generals were Jewish but none of the kids were. But Rose the Nose was Jewish. We have one Jewish kid, and we only learn the ethnicity of perhaps 12 kids (Ender-US, Bonzo-Spain, Nikolai-Greek, Alai-Arab, Corn Moon-Native American, Hot Soup - Chinese.....I can't think of any others at the moment)

Omer
User ID: 9823593 Oct 7th 2:52 AM
KAH - I'm talking about real life missionairies. It's unfair to give christianity the credit for European science...

Linda-Jeff - I guess it's a matter of perspective. I've read the book and that scene many times, and I'm never comfortable zith it. consider ALL the genrals are jewish - that strikes me like the determination that 'The Jews run everything'... you know, the protocol of the elders of Zion, etc, etc? and on the other hand, the only Jewish kid we meet is an annoying, stupid, rude freak... well... I'm not saying that is what Orson Scott Card meant, just... that's the way I reacted

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 7th 7:47 AM
Omer,

Uh...
I thought you were talking about OSC and his writing.
Certainly what you describe is an unfair approach. But is it not a somewhat _accurate_ display of some of the real-life missionaries approach? Especially in past times?

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 7th 11:28 AM
KAH -yeah! the problem is, that's what his future, non christian( or, not necessary christian) heores do. I won't spoil the plot, but it's quite clear they represent what Orson scott Card supports.

Kevin
User ID: 1766884 Oct 7th 1:33 PM
Omer, is it possible that you are a little, um, oversensitive on this subject? Taking such offense to a line or two out of a complete book and disliking the author because of those few lines seems a bit drastic. Would you prefer if he used a different more politically correct word? Would you prefer that anyone who is Christian just not say the word "Jew"? I don't mean this as insulting but gee whiz, "all the generals are Jews" seems like about the most harmless (if not complementary as people have pointed out) way the Jewish people could be incorporated into the book. It is not like he said, "Those damn Jewish generals are... <pick a negative connotation>".

Also to say an author is pushing his "christian superiority viewpoint" because of one line in one book and used a historically correct methodology used to spread religion in another is a bit extreme. How many books has Card written? It is not as if he has used christian superiority as a focus of ANY of them.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 7th 2:38 PM
Well, considering history, maybe Omer as a jew has a right to be a _little_ sensitive.

But in any case, I will refrain from commenting further on this issue, since I have not read the relevant books.

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Oct 7th 4:08 PM
Kevin - I don't dislike Orson Scott Card, I just found those remarks to be...well tasteless.

and the part about the missionairies is the entire point of the email, and Card strongly expressed his sentiment in an email he was kind enough to send me. �ll I said was, I dislike the man's political ideas. what's the big fuss?

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 7th 4:26 PM
In either the second or third book of the Alvin Maker series, Card introduces a Christian preacher who rapes slaves, steals from his flock, and becomes Alvin's chief nemesis. I think that's the only Christian religious character in the entire series.

So would a Baptist or Christian be justified in accusing Card of being anti-Christian?

Kevin
User ID: 1766884 Oct 7th 4:38 PM
Omer, I guess I lost the thread of the conversation. I thought you were saying that you disliked Card because of a few lines. I had forgotten that you had received an email from him where he expressed his views to you personally. OK by me if you disagree with his viewpoint.

KAH, the point that I was trying to make is that I'm very tired of the politically correct thing. It is right and good to be sensitive to other people's feelings. I'm just fed up with people who pick apart everything they see/hear to try to find something that offends them. It makes conversation nearly impossible when you have to make sure every word isn't going to offend some group or another.

When people discount an entire piece of art because of a line or two they are being narrow minded. Whether its Aladin (Disney), Ellison, Huck Finn, or Ender's Game it doesn't matter.

Omer, I reread your posts and apologize for jumping to conclusions about your stance on Ender's Game.

I understand that certain groups are justified in being sensitive. I just wish that they would look past a phrasing to the bigger picture of the work.

Before I step down from my soap box I have further item. We say that we want honest polititians yet we crucify them if they express an honest opinion. I don't agree with Ventura's statements but I respect the man for expressing them. I would rather have someone who I somewhat disagree with in office but is honest than someone who I think I agree with but is lying through their teeth.

<stepping down> commence shredding...

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 3rd 4:26 PM Wanna talk about Card? Ender, colombus, and Alvin Maker? the creater of some of the best fantasy and science fiction out there, as well as some of the worst? a man with extreamly high IQ, and extreamly stupid Mormonesque worldviews?
Carol User ID: 9405543	Oct 3rd 4:53 PM I just got Ender's Shadow. I liked the rest of the Ender books except for the very last one. I liked some of the Alvin Maker stuff, but lost in somewhere in the middle.
Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 4th 2:48 AM How's Ender's Shadow? Ender's Game is one of my favorite books, but after the entire fiasco of the short story in 'Far Horizons', I'm not gonna buy it in hardback, I think
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 4th 12:44 PM I also liked Ender's Game but thought it went downhill from there. It seems to me like OSC has gotten fixed on the whole concept of genocide, when it can be justified, when it can't, and the moral consequences. The subject appears in the Alvin Maker series, the Ender Wiggin series, and in Treason, one of his earlier books that I really like. I feel like he's hitting us over the head with the repetition and I've sort of bailed on him as a consequence.
Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 4th 3:27 PM I love his writing, but the guy's philosophy scares me. For real. He kinde'believes in christian superiority in a way that I'm not comfortable with
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Oct 4th 11:03 PM I am a fan of Orson Scott Card and in fact recently travelled to San Diego for his signing of his new book Ender's Shadow. Some people only like Ender's Game in the "Ender quartet". Others like all four. OSC said he felt Ender's Game was more traditional science fiction, but that the first sequel, Speaker For the Dead was anthropological science fiction, and that the next two (originally one book) were metaphysical. I guess if you do not like anthropology or metaphysics, you would not like those books. Personally, I liked all four. However, just as AGOT is my favorite fantasy novel of all time, Ender's Game is my favorite science fiction novel of all time. Ender's Shadow(ES) continues very much in the vein of Ender's Game (EG), rather than being like any of its previous sequels. It is even better in many ways, however, simply because OSC is more mature now than 15 years ago when he wrote EG. This novel deals philosophically with issues of genetic engineering and altruism. ES is a parallel novel, a concept that I feel worked out very well. We see things from Bean's point of view, not Ender's. However, only about 15 percent of the book is events which have already been told from Ender's point of view. The rest is new material about Bean's life. I think the GRRM almost, but not quite, writes parallel novels. He keeps switching POV, but he never has two different characters tell the same event. I feel the fact that 15 percent of ES or so was a retelling of parts of EG from Bean's point of view was quite effective. It is fascinating how some of the characters and motivations get switched around entirely. Its a brilliant book. Omer, I should like to address your fear of OSC. When I was in San Diego, my friend Paige and I got to talk with him privately. She asked him if he felt Mormonism came through in his books. He said something like "No, I do not proselytize for the Mormon religion, and I don't feel that their overt religious teachings are in my work". I would like to ask you this. If you did not know OSC was a Mormon, how would you even know he was a Christian???? Is if fair to judge him on his religion, his "private life". To me, thats what appears to be happening when you say you are afraid of him since he believes in Christian superiority. But let me give you a chance to answer. Besides I have read only about 23 of his 30 or so works. Where is it, specifically, that he evinces a belief in what you call Christian superiority??? It has already been pointed out that he is so very anti Xenocide, and anti prejudice of any sort in fact. So, what is scary about OSC? I am very glad you brought up this topic, Omer. Its one I really like to discuss and debate.
Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 5th 10:47 AM Linda - so you liked Ender's shadow? Is it worth my money buying it in hardcover? I LOVE Ender's Game, and I liked Speaker for the Dead alot, but I really didn't like the next two, in which NOTHING HAPPENS. Well, I got Orson Scott Card's beliefs from Pastwatch, and from an email he had sent me about it. ( and maybe for a few parts in Ender's Game and Speaker for the dead in which he speaks badly of jews... but never mind that). In PASTWATCH, anyway, christianity wins and the nativ ebelieves lose, despite monsterities done by the name of chrisitainity. For further ellaboration on that point: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/1105/hpmonographs.html
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Oct 5th 8:32 PM Omer, thats very interesting. Pastwatch is one of his books that I have not read. Do people convert freely? I mean, if its not coerced, then I could not see it as evil. Would it be evil if I choose to convert to Judaism? Should a rabbi refuse to speak to me? Well, just wondering. I was curious to hear about where OSC speaks badly of Jews in Speaker for the Dead, since I don't recall it. Some Ender's Game references are coming back to me. The Battle School boys called a guy "Rose the Nose" (it was battle school and the nose is not the n word, but I am not the arbitrator of what names are unmentionable for any purpose) He also said something like "all the main generals on earth were Jewish", which I sort of took as a tribute to the brilliance of Jewish people, but apparently some of those generals could be ruthless at times. I don't know, my memory is not specific. Was that the "speaking badly of Jews" part, or am I remembering it wrong? You could get Ender's Shadow in hardcover from some of the online services. Last time I looked it was 50 percent off at Amazon.com. I would not say, overall, that ES is as good as EG, nothing could be. However, it is in the same vein and I am 100 percent sure you will like it much better than the other three sequels, which were in an entirely different vein. Also, I thought there were several whole chapters in ES that were as good as any chapter in EG. (Well, except the last, since ES has no overwhelming surprise in it....but we certainly find out some very interesting things.)
Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 6th 11:16 AM Linda - they're shown technology as proof for the superiority of christianity. If I go to someone who doesn't know anything about technology, show him a gun and what a gun can do, and then tell him 'this is a sign my god is true', I am doing something that's wrong. Also I oppose missionairies, cause I think they oftem prey on the weak. I like the approach of judaism in that sense. Make people chose your way by being the best, by setting an example. Linda - I was refering to the scenes of Rose, and the scenes about the generals which seemed to show some contempt ( notice how ALL the generals are jewish but NONE of the kids are...), and in Speaker I think there was a scene about a Rabbi... it's been a while... these are all small things, but they creat a feeling. I KNOW I'll buy Ender's Shadow... I'll se ehow much it costs on Amazon before I decide if it's gonna be a hardcover sale.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 6th 11:26 AM Omer; I haven't read the relevant books you talk about here, so I'm a little loath to pop in. But... Isn't this a plausible approach for a missionary? (showing the superior technology to prove one gods superiority, I mean) Certainly, it is a stupid world view, but OSC might not have meant to write this as 'the TRVTH in RL', but 'this is how the missionaries think, and I'm not necessarily suggesting that I personally agree with that'. After all, it is not unheard of to write about things that go diametrically against ones own world view, in order to create an interesting perspective. I.e. - 'the world isn't fair'. Or something. But, as I said, I haven't read the books, and I might have gotten the context it was said in, etc., all wrong.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 6th 11:42 AM Omer, I actually thought the Jewish General thing in Ender's Game was a tremendous compliment to the success of the Israeli military. A touch of humor, but still a compliment. I didn't detect even a hint of contempt. I mean, a fundamental premise of Ender's game is that humanity has focused its resources on the military. One would expect to find the best and brightest in the military and, lo and behold, the generals are all jewish. How is that anti-semitic? If anything, its pro-semitic. As for the Christian themes, I interpreted Card as agreeing with your position -- that it was wrong to claim technology as being associated with a particular diety. But I suppose I might have misinterpreted.
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Oct 6th 9:57 PM Omer: I have not read Pastwatch, so I will not disagree with what you said. I did comment before that I thought all the generals being Jewish was a complement to them. You said all the generals were Jewish but none of the kids were. But Rose the Nose was Jewish. We have one Jewish kid, and we only learn the ethnicity of perhaps 12 kids (Ender-US, Bonzo-Spain, Nikolai-Greek, Alai-Arab, Corn Moon-Native American, Hot Soup - Chinese.....I can't think of any others at the moment)
Omer User ID: 9823593	Oct 7th 2:52 AM KAH - I'm talking about real life missionairies. It's unfair to give christianity the credit for European science... Linda-Jeff - I guess it's a matter of perspective. I've read the book and that scene many times, and I'm never comfortable zith it. consider ALL the genrals are jewish - that strikes me like the determination that 'The Jews run everything'... you know, the protocol of the elders of Zion, etc, etc? and on the other hand, the only Jewish kid we meet is an annoying, stupid, rude freak... well... I'm not saying that is what Orson Scott Card meant, just... that's the way I reacted
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 7th 7:47 AM Omer, Uh... I thought you were talking about OSC and his writing. Certainly what you describe is an unfair approach. But is it not a somewhat _accurate_ display of some of the real-life missionaries approach? Especially in past times?
Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 7th 11:28 AM KAH -yeah! the problem is, that's what his future, non christian( or, not necessary christian) heores do. I won't spoil the plot, but it's quite clear they represent what Orson scott Card supports.
Kevin User ID: 1766884	Oct 7th 1:33 PM Omer, is it possible that you are a little, um, oversensitive on this subject? Taking such offense to a line or two out of a complete book and disliking the author because of those few lines seems a bit drastic. Would you prefer if he used a different more politically correct word? Would you prefer that anyone who is Christian just not say the word "Jew"? I don't mean this as insulting but gee whiz, "all the generals are Jews" seems like about the most harmless (if not complementary as people have pointed out) way the Jewish people could be incorporated into the book. It is not like he said, "Those damn Jewish generals are... <pick a negative connotation>". Also to say an author is pushing his "christian superiority viewpoint" because of one line in one book and used a historically correct methodology used to spread religion in another is a bit extreme. How many books has Card written? It is not as if he has used christian superiority as a focus of ANY of them.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 7th 2:38 PM Well, considering history, maybe Omer as a jew has a right to be a _little_ sensitive. But in any case, I will refrain from commenting further on this issue, since I have not read the relevant books.
Omer User ID: 0485244	Oct 7th 4:08 PM Kevin - I don't dislike Orson Scott Card, I just found those remarks to be...well tasteless. and the part about the missionairies is the entire point of the email, and Card strongly expressed his sentiment in an email he was kind enough to send me. �ll I said was, I dislike the man's political ideas. what's the big fuss?
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 7th 4:26 PM In either the second or third book of the Alvin Maker series, Card introduces a Christian preacher who rapes slaves, steals from his flock, and becomes Alvin's chief nemesis. I think that's the only Christian religious character in the entire series. So would a Baptist or Christian be justified in accusing Card of being anti-Christian?
Kevin User ID: 1766884	Oct 7th 4:38 PM Omer, I guess I lost the thread of the conversation. I thought you were saying that you disliked Card because of a few lines. I had forgotten that you had received an email from him where he expressed his views to you personally. OK by me if you disagree with his viewpoint. KAH, the point that I was trying to make is that I'm very tired of the politically correct thing. It is right and good to be sensitive to other people's feelings. I'm just fed up with people who pick apart everything they see/hear to try to find something that offends them. It makes conversation nearly impossible when you have to make sure every word isn't going to offend some group or another. When people discount an entire piece of art because of a line or two they are being narrow minded. Whether its Aladin (Disney), Ellison, Huck Finn, or Ender's Game it doesn't matter. Omer, I reread your posts and apologize for jumping to conclusions about your stance on Ender's Game. I understand that certain groups are justified in being sensitive. I just wish that they would look past a phrasing to the bigger picture of the work. Before I step down from my soap box I have further item. We say that we want honest polititians yet we crucify them if they express an honest opinion. I don't agree with Ventura's statements but I respect the man for expressing them. I would rather have someone who I somewhat disagree with in office but is honest than someone who I think I agree with but is lying through their teeth. <stepping down> commence shredding...